Former Canucks: Players & Management V

[Verviticus]

i genuinely dont think gillis' drafting was as bad as people make it out to be - and i had this opinion before hutton rocked onto the scene. i feel like people.. ok, im positively sure that people are intentionally conflating a reduced number of draft picks and bad drafting

 

[WetcoastOrca]

i genuinely dont think gillis' drafting was as bad as people make it out to be - and i had this opinion before hutton rocked onto the scene. i feel like people.. ok, im positively sure that people are intentionally conflating a reduced number of draft picks and bad drafting

In part. But you simply can't swing and miss four drafts in a row with your first round pick going Hodgson, Schroeder and Jensen and then trading for Ballard. That's zero regular players in four years out of the first round. Probably the worst record in the NHL during that stretch for the first round.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

i genuinely dont think gillis' drafting was as bad as people make it out to be - and i had this opinion before hutton rocked onto the scene. i feel like people.. ok, im positively sure that people are intentionally conflating a reduced number of draft picks and bad drafting

Not surprising.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

The rumour is that Gillis wanted to rebuild after 2012 and wasn't allowed to by ownership. And then Ownership hired Benning because Benning promised to retool on the fly instead of tear down. So really Gillis and Benning are pawns of an insidious hidden power:

Yup, gillis, Benning and linden are all pawns in Aquilini's games.

 

[Verviticus]

well, three years. my point is that 2010 is not useful to critique gillis' drafting

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

well, three years. my point is that 2010 is not useful to critique gillis' drafting

I think it is considering what happened in rounds 4 & 5.

 

[Verviticus]

ya but the thing you purport to think is incorrect. sorry, i guess :shrug:

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

In part. But you simply can't swing and miss four drafts in a row with your first round pick going Hodgson, Schroeder and Jensen and then trading for Ballard. That's zero regular players in four years out of the first round. Probably the worst record in the NHL during that stretch for the first round.

Probably not really. I looked at Chicago who took Kyle Beach after we took Hodgson (and the debate was 100% around those two players and we actually made the right choice,) and in 2009 they got Dylan Olsen, 2010 they got Kevin Hayes who they couldn't even sign, and 2011 they had two first rounders and took Mark McNeill and Phillip Danault.

Drafting is hard. People always think our drafting stinks because we have unrealistic expectations of what drafting is like.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Well that first core was built on Keenan trades. The second was in Burke draft picks and a biiig Nonis trade.

Meaning, two cores were put together without solely relying on drafting. It can be done.

i genuinely dont think gillis' drafting was as bad as people make it out to be - and i had this opinion before hutton rocked onto the scene. i feel like people.. ok, im positively sure that people are intentionally conflating a reduced number of draft picks and bad drafting

This is exactly it. Pick frequency was a significant issue during the Gillis regime. It's remained an issue during the Benning regime. Only, Benning's NHL team is nowhere close to being as good as the one Gillis had to support.

In part. But you simply can't swing and miss four drafts in a row with your first round pick going Hodgson, Schroeder and Jensen and then trading for Ballard. That's zero regular players in four years out of the first round. Probably the worst record in the NHL during that stretch for the first round.

With the likely the best NHL record over that span. Put it this way, if Gillis could produce talent consistently from the 1st round, while maintaining a top5 NHL team, Aqua would still be answering questions as to why he was fired.

 

[VanJack]

Probably not really. I looked at Chicago who took Kyle Beach after we took Hodgson (and the debate was 100% around those two players and we actually made the right choice,) and in 2009 they got Dylan Olsen, 2010 they got Kevin Hayes who they couldn't even sign, and 2011 they had two first rounders and took Mark McNeill and Phillip Danault.

Drafting is hard. People always think our drafting stinks because we have unrealistic expectations of what drafting is like.

The teams that draft well are the ones with multiple picks....the more lottery tickets, the higher the chance to win....and that's been the problem with the Canucks over the years...just not enough picks.....everybody sings the praises of great drafting teams like Chicago, but they've had their share of duds, even in early rounds....but they can afford to flop with a Kyle Beech when some of their other guys work out....hopefully Jimbo is through trading picks for other teams' marginal prospects.

 

[JA]

Well that first core was built on Keenan trades. The second was in Burke draft picks and a biiig Nonis trade.

I'm not so sure about the Keenan trades aside from the big one and Brad May:

January 1998:

To Vancouver: Sean Burke, Geoff Sanderson and Enrico Ciccone
To Carolina: Martin Gelinas and Kirk McLean.

February 1998:

To Buffalo: Geoff Sanderson
To Vancouver: Brad May and a 3rd round pick in 1999 (Rene Vydareny).

To Philadelphia: Mike Sillinger
To Vancouver: 5th round pick in 1998 Draft (Garrett Prosofsky)

To Vancouver: Peter Zezel
To New Jersey: 5th round pick in 1998 (Anton But)

To Islanders: Trevor Linden
To Vancouver: Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe, and a 3rd round pick in 1998 (Jarkko Ruutu)

March 1998:

To Boston: Grant Ledyard
To Vancouver: 8th round pick in 1998 (Curtis Valentine)

To Philadelphia: Sean Burke
To Vancouver: Garth Snow

To Toronto: Lonny Bohonos
To Vancouver: Brandon Convery

To Islanders: Gino Odjick
To Canucks: Jason Strudwick

To Philly: Dave Babych
To Vancouver: 3rd round pick in 1998 (Justin Morrison)

Out:
Martin Gelinas
Kirk McLean
Geoff Sanderson
Mike Sillinger
Trevor Linden
Grant Ledyard
Sean Burke
Lonny Bohonos
Gino Odjick
Dave Babych
1998 5th round pick (Anton But)

In:
Enrico Ciccone
Brad May
Peter Zezel
Todd Bertuzzi
Bryan McCabe
Garth Snow
Brandon Convery
Jason Strudwick
1998 3rd round pick (Jarkko Ruutu)
1998 3rd round pick (Justin Morrison)
1998 5th round pick (Garrett Prosofky)
1998 8th round pick (Curtis Valentine)
1999 3rd round pick (Rene Vydareny)

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

The teams that draft well are the ones with multiple picks....the more lottery tickets, the higher the chance to win....and that's been the problem with the Canucks over the years...just not enough picks.....everybody sings the praises of great drafting teams like Chicago, but they've had their share of duds, even in early rounds....but they can afford to flop with a Kyle Beech when some of their other guys work out....hopefully Jimbo is through trading picks for other teams' marginal prospects.

I fully agree with you.

PEople just seem to have this perception that like most teams get:

1st round pick = guaranteed NHL player
2nd round pick = guaranteed marginal NHL player
3rd-7th round pick = guaranteed to get 2 more players out of these rounds

And it's just not like that. Especially when you're a good team drafting in picks 20-30, you're lucky to get one regular NHL player from the entire draft. That's just the way it is. And failing to understand that leads one to thinking that our drafting under Gillis was "the worst in the NHL" when it really was pretty much standard.

 

[ahmon]

Probably not really. I looked at Chicago who took Kyle Beach after we took Hodgson (and the debate was 100% around those two players and we actually made the right choice,) and in 2009 they got Dylan Olsen, 2010 they got Kevin Hayes who they couldn't even sign, and 2011 they had two first rounders and took Mark McNeill and Phillip Danault.

Drafting is hard. People always think our drafting stinks because we have unrealistic expectations of what drafting is like.

uh... Hayes was a decent pick..

In 2011 they also got Brandon Saad in the 2nd round. And Saad played a significant role in the top 6 in their last 2 cups.

One can argue no Saad, and they wouln't be able to win the last 2 cups.

don't forget they also got Kruger/Shaw between 2008-2011. It also helped they drafted, Keith, Seabrook, Toews, Kane, Bolland, Byfuglien in the past years.

Yes drafting is hard, so is everything including trades. No one said managing an NHL team with the target of winning a cup is easy.

Amateur scouting wasn't the priority for the resources he had when he was hired. It simply isn't possible to revamp a large organization in short order and have it all functional. You pick your battles and where to put focus. But he will be the first to admit he waited too long to address the issue and I don't think you will find that would disagree.

Benning revamped the front office last summer inc,using the scouting so know we wouldn't be waiting that long to judge his changes.

So you agree that the revamp took too long, no need to sugarcoat it. Simply not acceptable.

 

[EpochLink]

In terms of 2008, Hodgson was the correct pick. But hindsight, Ottawa couple picks later got Erik Karlsson.

 

[Verviticus]

In 2011 they also got Brandon Saad in the 2nd round. And Saad played a significant role in the top 6 in their last 2 cups

I'm confused. is a second round pick actually a first round pick?

 

[ahmon]

In terms of 2008, Hodgson was the correct pick. But hindsight, Ottawa couple picks later got Erik Karlsson.

I think Hodgson wasn't that bad of a pick for a while he was a top 6 nhler.

But if you miss on your 1st round, you need to hit in your 2nd. Yann Sauve was a poor pick the second it was made.

Its not just Gillis here, it goes back to 2007, 2006 etc. for a good 5-6 years the canucks literally couldn't draft an impact forward or defenseman. Hence why we are forced to do a rebuild. It was inevitable with that kind of drafting.

 

[The Drop]

I guess there's also trading away your second round pick like Benning does every year so you don't have to worry about hitting or missing on it

 

[EpochLink]

I think Hodgson wasn't that bad of a pick for a while he was a top 6 nhler.

But if you miss on your 1st round, you need to hit in your 2nd. Yann Sauve was a poor pick the second it was made.

Its not just Gillis here, it goes back to 2007, 2006 etc. for a good 5-6 years the canucks literally couldn't draft an impact forward or defenseman. Hence why we are forced to do a rebuild. It was inevitable with that kind of drafting.

2007 draft BARF, what was Nonis thinking...

 

[me2]

In terms of 2008, Hodgson was the correct pick. But hindsight, Ottawa couple picks later got Erik Karlsson.

Karlsson was great pick, McKenzie had him around 20th, central scouting had him as the 5th Euro.

Apart from Gillis overriding Kyle Beach the 2008 (Hodgson>Beach) was really all Nonis' draft work and belong's in his resume IMHO.

2009: Schroeder Rodin KConn. Schroeder's an AHL callup, KConn is now a full time NHLer but nothing special. This draft is will live or die on goes Rodin pt II.

2010: Tanev and Lack make up for a draft where the earliest pick was 115. Can't say anything much about drafting with so few quality picks.

2011: Corrado and a couple of longshots to ever make it in Jensen and Grenier. 1 so-so NHLer. Weak.

Those are the 1st 3 years of the Gillis regime, 1 of which had no picks in the top 100. So really only 2 years you can judge it on, poor years though. 2 years just isn't a big enough sample size to say definitively, though the draft list leak was damning, probably part of the reason he rebuild a lot of the scouting. It also depends on the draft year, the Schroeder year produced only 3 decent players in the next 10 picks: Marcus Johansen, Kyle Palmieri and the perpetually injured Simon Depres in the next 10 picks.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Absolutely absurd argument. I don't have access to a multi million dollar scouting team nor do I have the ability to fly and watch these kids myself. Why would who I have picked matter in this situation?

How does Gillis' drafts compare to the ones Boston had when Benning was on board?

Benning tanked Boston's drafting once Gorton left. Worst freefall in NHL history, ever. (Am I doing the idiotic hyperbole right? I'm kinda new at this.)

 

[RobertKron]

Could also argue that McNally looked pretty good until he sat out a year due to the cheating thing. They knew he'd want to go four years, which is why he went in the 4th round, but you couldn't really predict that.

 

[Pip]

In 2011 they also got Brandon Saad in the 2nd round. And Saad played a significant role in the top 6 in their last 2 cups.

And he was picked after the Hawks had flubbed their first round picks. Shows that having a large quantity of picks is at least as important as good scouting.

 

[tantalum]

So you agree that the revamp took too long, no need to sugarcoat it. Simply not acceptable.

A lot of it is in retrospect though. I don't think it could have been or should have been a focus the first 3-4 years of his tenure? It should have been done a earlier but I think people blow it out of proportion quite a bit and fail to take full stock of the situation and how long it takes to revamp a staff of specialized people. What confuses me is that the drafting did seemingly improve by a fair margin but Benning saw fit to blow that up with little reason. But he blew everything else up as well to create his echo chamber so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[me2]

A lot of it is in retrospect though. I don't think it could have been or should have been a focus the first 3-4 years of his tenure? It should have been done a earlier but I think people blow it out of proportion quite a bit and fail to take full stock of the situation and how long it takes to revamp a staff of specialized people. What confuses me is that the drafting did seemingly improve by a fair margin but Benning saw fit to blow that up with little reason. But he blew everything else up as well to create his echo chamber so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Exactly. You can't judge scouts on one year, arguably even 2 isn't enough to be sure. Even when you do it takes time to get replacements and settle them in like Gillis did with Bracket. Nonis was in the perfect position to do it, he should have known the scouts will enough, but the guy was too soft to sack anyone.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

And he was picked after the Hawks had flubbed their first round picks. Shows that having a large quantity of picks is at least as important as good scouting.

Does it? having multiple picks gives you a better chance of landing a NHL player, yes. However how did you get those extra picks by trading Nhl players. So the net effect can still be negative. Best would be drafting muliple NHL players with less picks while acquiring good nhl players with picks traded. Gillis did the latter without the former while Benning is doing the former without the latter. Which is still a net positive.