Confirmed with Link: Flames sign Nicklas Grossmann [1 yr, $575k]

[Johnny Hoxville]

I can't really point to anything in particular, or any particular plays where he was a positive factor though. He just did not look like he was an NHL player in my opinion.

Again, I'm not saying I am fan of his. But I do see why the Flames would sign him, the Oilers outmuscled us that game and there are other teams in the West that will do the same. He's a strong player down low and that's where the battles are won.

That said, I would rather have about 3 players in the lineup over him but that doesn't mean I have my head in the sand and I can realize why this guy is on the team. He was not as bad in the 2nd or 3rd period and I thought he looked "okay".

 

[MonyontheMoney]

According to the article, Option 2 gives you relief equal to the injured player's contract minus the cap space available. That is to say, if a team like Florida used Option 2, they would get no relief at all, because they wouldn't need it.

If true, then you can see the logic, provided they waive Grossman when they put Smid on LTIR.

So, if I have it right, Smid's AAV is $3.5M, and Grossman's contract is about $600K

Scenario A: (not signing Grossman, then putting Smid on LTIR)

They can exceed the cap by about $2.9M, and they have $600K space to start with. They can add $3.5M total.

Scenario B: (signing Grossman, putting Smid on LTIR and waiving Grossman)

They can exceed the cap by about $3.5M, and they have $600K space after waiving Grossman. They can add $4.1M total.

I'm unsure of how much cap space waiving Grossman would open up, if it's the full amount or not, but as long as it is more than zero, you can see the logic.

Damn, beat me to it.

Signing Grossman, then placing Smid on LTIR, then burying Grossmanns' cap hit in Stockton, will actually be quite a shrewd move by Treliving when it happens. Which I have little doubt that it will based on Trelivimgs comments on the Fan. ~4.1M at a later date or ~2.9M at a later date, pretty easy choice if I'm being honest.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Thing is, that's assuming we run a 22 man roster Anglesmith. Because if we call up a player earning more than Grossman, which is pretty much anyone, then it doesn't work.

I get what you are saying though, definitely gives us more flexibility at the deadline.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Thing is, that's assuming we run a 22 man roster Anglesmith. Because if we call up a player earning more than Grossman, which is pretty much anyone, then it doesn't work.

I get what you are saying though, definitely gives us more flexibility at the deadline.

Even if they do call up another player, say Shinkaruk at a cap hit of 863,333:

~4.1M - 865,000(just because it's nicer to work with)= 3.25M (so slightly over if we were to use the actual cap hit)

They will still have greater than 2.9M and have still found a way to maximize cap space.

That's also assuming a 22 man roster without signing Grossmann and just putting Smid straight on LTIR, so running a 23 man roster in that situation would also decrease the cap space by the same 863,333 for a Shinkaruk recall.

This is working under the assumption that Grossmanns' contract is able to be completely buried, which I haven't checked on, but am 99% sure it is.

Regardless, Gulutazan said he would prefer to run a 13 F, 7D, 22 man roster.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Is there any specific value in this (in rules), or is it more like a personal preference?

It's unclear as to why Smid isn't on LTIR, the CBA is clear about the rules about injured players, but what's not clear are the circumstances Treliving is trying to mitigate.

The rules are as follows, from Section 50.10(d) of the Collective Bargaining Agreement: (emphasis mine)

In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below.

One of the challenges is that if the player is fit to play, they must have the cap space to put him back on the roster. It's entirely possible that while Smid is injured, the team doctors don't know if his injury will keep him out all season.

 

[Snazu]

It's unclear as to why Smid isn't on LTIR, the CBA is clear about the rules about injured players, but what's not clear are the circumstances Treliving is trying to mitigate.

The rules are as follows, from Section 50.10(d) of the Collective Bargaining Agreement: (emphasis mine)



One of the challenges is that if the player is fit to play, they must have the cap space to put him back on the roster. It's entirely possible that while Smid is injured, the team doctors don't know if his injury will keep him out all season.

Is there some kind of rule against trading a guy on LTIR during the season? I couldn't find anything searching it out. I can't recall a player being traded on LTIR during the season. Maybe they're keeping the option open and are trying to trade away his caphit. There were rumors that the Flames were trying to trade him at one point.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Is there some kind of rule against trading a guy on LTIR during the season? I couldn't find anything searching it out. I can't recall a player being traded on LTIR during the season. Maybe they're keeping the option open and are trying to trade away his caphit. There were rumors that the Flames were trying to trade him at one point.

Nathan Horton was traded while on LTIR, if I recall. I think the team accepting the player must simply know that he's injured.

Anything is possible, in this life.

 

[Dertell]

I will admit that Grossman had a brutal first period. But anyone who thinks he was that bad for the entire game is just hating on him for the sake of it.

Usually it's tough to respond to this kind of argument where you're just supposed to believe the premise (X player was bad at early on but he stepped up after so you're a just hater if you don't like his play) because it usually covers a much, much larger timeframe than one game. So I re-watched the 2nd in which he played ~3 minutes to see if there was any truth to this. This is the log:

(Time indicated is time remaining for the period)
14:42 - Made a pass to Backlund. The obvious thing to do.
14:29 - Loses the race to the puck, leading to some o-zone time and a shot.
11:52 - Punt the puck on the PK after a clean faceoff win by Monahan.
10:59 - Tough to tell, even with multiple angles. My interpretation: Could've done a better job covering Eberle, who would've taken a shot had McDavid been slightly more accurate with his pass. Hamilton's hit is independent to this.
7:30 - Loses the race to the puck, leading to some o-zone time but no shot.
6:25 - (after a d-zone faceoff) Gets the puck snagged from him by Kassian, leading to a shot by RNH.
6:18 - Failed to recover the puck.
6:08 - Dump the puck in the n-zone.

Conclusion: When he was forced to something, either it was a play a ECHLer could make or he failed. You and the others like you act as if we're the one reacting on emotions and biases. There's absolutely no doubt me and most likely the others are affected by confirmation bias and emotions (therefore so is the above analysis of his play, but you can re-watch the game if you want to verify the validity of the comments). But if you're going to say we think he sucked the whole game solely because of some irrational emotions, back it up with evidences.

I don't "like" Grossman, but I don't hate him.

Give me a break. You and the others defending Grossmann right now are the same people who defended the signing and the others traditional defensemen. I'm not big on deflecting, but it always bothers when people on the internet think presenting themselves as neutral, rational and unbiased and the opponents as biased and emotional prove they're the one in the right.

 

[Snazu]

Nathan Horton was traded while on LTIR, if I recall. I think the team accepting the player must simply know that he's injured.

Anything is possible, in this life.

yeah, you're right. Then I really am not sure why they don't have Smid on LTIR. It's one of those secrets of the universe.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Agreed drDT. Defencemen like Grossman are unable to make plays, so they end up just shooting the puck off the glass every time. They can't make good dekes or passes. The puck is never moved out properly and it's tough to create offence. No room for that in the modern NHL.

Getting the puck back is so hard that you can't just chip it out like we were taught 15-20 years ago. Yes it's an acceptable play at times. But for the most part, when you get the puck you want to keep if. Guys that are 'safe' like Grossman still have their defensive deficiencies. And because they can't break the puck out properly, they spend a lot more time defending.

Sure, Kulak will have more turnovers then Grossman. That's because he tries more difficult things that are conducive to winning. He has the puck on his stick about 5x the amount Grossman does. Mistakes are inevitable, especially with young D. But what Kulak brings is exactly what is needed in the modern game. Skating, Gap control, efficient puck moving, won't get burned like Grossman and Wideman do.

Literally the only thing he does better than Kulak is win 50-50 battles. Say Gross is 60-40 and Kulak is 40-60 in those scenarios. Here's the thing about 50/50 battles. Grossman loses a lot of races to pucks that would be 50/50 battles. While Kulak wins those races. The puck battle isn't even needed because Kulak has already grabbed it and skated it to safety before Grossman even gets there. I'm sure Grossman is good on the PK but that's about it. 5 on 5 he hurts us.

Wideman, Grossman, Engelland, these guys are not top 4 D. We know that by now. It's painfully obvious. Why not try Jokkipakka or Kulak? They are the only ones with the skating to be able to play the role effectively. We were LAST defensively last year, what do we have to lose?

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

LOL, whatever. I would prefer Jokipakka, Kulak, Wideman, Engelland, Smid all over Grossman, so don't try calling me a fanboy of his. All I simply stated was is that I see why the Flames signed him and I don't think he was as bad to the extent as others are making him out to be. If you want to read more into that, be my guest.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

As one of "the others" like the signing it is because I think Grossman's role is important: sitting in the press box taking notes. Might as well have someone earning a league minimum salary doing that.

If one of the other defensemen (Kevin, Kulak) are not out performing him on the ice, well then that's on those guys to step up.

 

[Volica]

As one of "the others" like the signing it is because I think Grossman's role is important: sitting in the press box taking notes. Might as well have someone earning a league minimum salary doing that.

If one of the other defensemen (Kevin, Kulak) are not out performing him on the ice, well then that's on those guys to step up.

Veteran guys are worth quite a bit to a young team. If Grossmann's eating popcorn in the pressbox for 20 games now, I'm perfectly fine with that. He's going to push in practice and he's going to be able to provide some experience off the ice to the boys.

I'm still fine with this signing as a depth guy who doesn't play

 

[Lunatik]

Is there any specific value in this (in rules), or is it more like a personal preference?

it was in teh paragraph above the line you quoted, cap space compounds, ltir does not

According to the article, Option 2 gives you relief equal to the injured player's contract minus the cap space available. That is to say, if a team like Florida used Option 2, they would get no relief at all, because they wouldn't need it.

If true, then you can see the logic, provided they waive Grossman when they put Smid on LTIR.

So, if I have it right, Smid's AAV is $3.5M, and Grossman's contract is about $600K

Scenario A: (not signing Grossman, then putting Smid on LTIR)

They can exceed the cap by about $2.9M, and they have $600K space to start with. They can add $3.5M total.

Scenario B: (signing Grossman, putting Smid on LTIR and waiving Grossman)

They can exceed the cap by about $3.5M, and they have $600K space after waiving Grossman. They can add $4.1M total.

I'm unsure of how much cap space waiving Grossman would open up, if it's the full amount or not, but as long as it is more than zero, you can see the logic.

That article is making it more complicated than it is. Like I said they get up to 3.5 million if they need it. The only difference between option 1 and 2 is option 1 is a locked in amount that would be lower they cannot exceed. During the season it makes literally 0 difference if they use $1 of LTIR or $3,500,000. The point is they would be allowed to go up to $3,500,000 over IF NEEDED. If they chose option 1 and were $1 over they would only receive $1 in relief, if needed.

To those asking why Smid is not on LTIR, it is really simple and been the case since LTIR came into the league. You cannot get a LTIR exception unless you need to exceed the cap due to a long term injury. If Grossamnn is sent down and Bollig recalled it would automatically come into effect assuming Smid has been deemed by league doctors to be eligible.

 

[Lunatik]

yeah, you're right. Then I really am not sure why they don't have Smid on LTIR. It's one of those secrets of the universe.

It's only because you don't understand how LTIR works. No player league wide goes on LTIR unless the team needs to exceed the cap due to the injury. Right now the FLames have a 23 man roster with a small amount of cap space, getting an exception to exceed it literally pointless. If Grossmann is sent down and someone call-up that makes at least $8,667 more than him, then and only then would the LTIR exception kick in.

 

[Kahvi]

it was in teh paragraph above the line you quoted, cap space compounds, ltir does not

Ok thanks, I'm too tired at the moment but I think I understood that reasoning.

Also, the more I read about cap and LTIR the more confused I seem get.