OT: Fitness and Nutrition Part V

[DAChampion]

Do you have any evidence that vegans live longer because of other lifestyle choices, or are you just making that assumption because it fits your narrative?

Everybody here but you (maybe even you?) has known this for several years.

It's pretty obvious that a lot of lifestyle decisions like veganism, paleo, Gwyneth Paltrow/GOOP worship, etc are more likely to appeal to upper-middle class yuppies.

Here's an article:
Vegan Demographics 2017 - USA, and the world - Vegan Bits
Vegans are more likely to be female, liberal, atheist. The article mentions an anti-correlation between age and income.

Then there's this article:
Do vegetarians live longer? Probably, but not because they're vegetarian
It’s important to acknowledge that in most studies vegetarians tend to be the “health-conscious” people, with overall healthier lifestyle patterns than the norm. For example, among the Sax Institute’s 45 and Up participants, vegetarians were less likely than non-vegetarians to report smoking, drinking excessively, insufficient physical activity and being overweight/obese. They were also less likely to report having heart or metabolic disease or cancer at the start of the study.

You also have the past several pages of Andrei79 telling you, multiple times, that the life expectancy difference disappears once cultural factors such as smoking are taken into account.

*******

But the most obvious way to demonstrate this is that vegetarians get the same health outcomes as vegans. Vegetarians consume eggs and dairy which are full-fledged animal products including cholesterol, saturated fatty acids, animal protein, retinol, iron, etc. All of the health arguments made against meat apply to eggs and dairy. If the differences in outcome were due to nutrition rather than culture, then vegetarians would not have better outcomes than other meat eaters.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Everybody here but you (maybe even you?) has known this for several years.

It's pretty obvious that a lot of lifestyle decisions like veganism, paleo, Gwyneth Paltrow/GOOP worship, etc are more likely to appeal to upper-middle class yuppies.

Here's an article:
Vegan Demographics 2017 - USA, and the world - Vegan Bits
Vegans are more likely to be female, liberal, atheist. The article mentions an anti-correlation between age and income.

Then there's this article:
Do vegetarians live longer? Probably, but not because they're vegetarian
It’s important to acknowledge that in most studies vegetarians tend to be the “health-conscious” people, with overall healthier lifestyle patterns than the norm. For example, among the Sax Institute’s 45 and Up participants, vegetarians were less likely than non-vegetarians to report smoking, drinking excessively, insufficient physical activity and being overweight/obese. They were also less likely to report having heart or metabolic disease or cancer at the start of the study.

You also have the past several pages of Andrei79 telling you, multiple times, that the life expectancy difference disappears once cultural factors such as smoking are taken into account.

*******

But the most obvious way to demonstrate this is that vegetarians get the same health outcomes as vegans. Vegetarians consume eggs and dairy which are full-fledged animal products including cholesterol, saturated fatty acids, animal protein, retinol, iron, etc. All of the health arguments mad against meat apply to eggs and dairy. If the differences in outcome were due to nutrition rather than culture, then vegetarians would not have better outcomes than other meat eaters.

Again several assumptions are made here.

Firstly, believe it or not, most vegans do it for ethical reasons not for health. In fact, pretty much every vegan I know is a self described "junk food vegan" who doesn't give 2 shits about their own health. They are doing it for the animals and the planet.

As well, in regards to the bolded, vegetarians are still eating less cholesterol, saturated fat etc etc, and as pointed out on in the article I posted a few pages back, the benefits of eating plants is a sliding scale- the more plants you eat instead of animal products the better off you'll be.

And I quote:

"The research was undertaken by scientists at Massachusetts General Hospital (in conjunction with Harvard Medical), who monitored health and diet records of more than 130,000 people over the course of thirty years.
They found every three per cent increase in calories from plant protein was found to reduce risk of death by 10 per cent. The figure rises to 12 per cent for risk of dying from heart disease.
By contrast, raising the share of animal protein in one's diet by 10 per cent led to a two per cent higher risk of death from all causes. This increased to an eight per cent higher chance of dying from heart disease."

 

[DAChampion]

Again several assumptions are made here.

Firstly, believe it or not, most vegans do it for ethical reasons not for health. In fact, pretty much every vegan I know is a self described "junk food vegan" who doesn't give 2 ****s about their own health. They are doing it for the animals and the planet.

As well, in regards to the bolded, vegetarians are still eating less cholesterol, saturated fat etc etc, and as pointed out on in the article I posted a few pages back, the benefits of eating plants is a sliding scale- the more plants you eat instead of animal products the better off you'll be.

And I quote:

"The research was undertaken by scientists at Massachusetts General Hospital (in conjunction with Harvard Medical), who monitored health and diet records of more than 130,000 people over the course of thirty years.
They found every three per cent increase in calories from plant protein was found to reduce risk of death by 10 per cent. The figure rises to 12 per cent for risk of dying from heart disease.
By contrast, raising the share of animal protein in one's diet by 10 per cent led to a two per cent higher risk of death from all causes. This increased to an eight per cent higher chance of dying from heart disease."

Yes, but that same study you quote showed that those sticking to animal protein from good meats did just fine, as have other studies. We've explained this to you multiple times. There's a difference between cold cuts and leg of lamb. There are six year olds that can understand this, so the fact that you're not understanding this means that you have an ideological barrier.

Reiterating, this:

is not the same as this:

Whether vegans describe themselves a skunk foods is moot, as the above article shows that they are less likely to smoke, etc.

 

[DAChampion]

What advice would you have for someone that has low back pain ? I went to the physio in the past and do daily stretches I should go back I guess . I went like 6-7 times to the point I think she told me no new stretches I can show you .it involves some planks and some other stretches. I started using some heat

But no problem with X-rays or mri it’s just basic low back pain due to a mistake

Massages should help too I guess I just don’t want to invest but I always been a health first guy . Strange situation. Have to start spending $ to get rid of it One day but I read it can take years to heal . Trying to improve posture too

It really depends on the cause of your back injury which is something that you should explore with your doctor / physiotherapist. L5/S1, L4/L5, etc etc etc are different injuries requiring different treatments. You may have bad posture, a bad mattress, a bad car seat, bad exercise habits, an excessive gut, weak core muscles, tight hamstrings, etc. Any of those could be causing you to have lower back pain, and we can't tell from over here.

I can tell you my own story. My lower back was severe, caused by stupidity, and took a lot of time and money to heal. I now feel no back pain, if I got amnesia I would not know that I once had a lower back injury. That said, the story will not necessarily be relevant to you.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Yes, but that same study you quote showed that those sticking to animal protein from good meats did just fine, as have other studies. We've explained this to you multiple times. There's a difference between cold cuts and leg of lamb. There are six year olds that can understand this, so the fact that you're not understanding this means that you have an ideological barrier.

Reiterating, this:

is not the same as this:

Whether vegans describe themselves a skunk foods is moot, as the above article shows that they are less likely to smoke, etc.

I hardly take that article to be some sort of definitive proof of anything.

But to be clear, I am well aware that there are healthier ways to eat meat and that not all meat is equal. Though remember this debate was about the health of vegans, not whether people can eat meat and be healthy. The only thing I really criticized was that "all-meat diet" which I think is obviously deserving of that criticism. The bottom line here is that eating vegan isn't going to kill you, and on the contrary it would probably will help the average person live longer...

One last thing, but I always find it amusing how every meat eater on the internet only eats the healthiest of meats yet in real life that is certainly the minority of meat eaters.... You I believe, but most I do not. I even have a friend who I workout with, he's a bodybuilder with a large social media following, and his instagram is all about "clean eating" "grass fed" "local" etc etc, yet in real life he eats absolute dog shit, dude literally eats fast food twice a day- I make fun of him constantly for it.

 

[DAChampion]

I hardly take that article to be some sort of definitive proof of anything.

But to be clear, I am well aware that there are healthier ways to eat meat and that not all meat is equal. Though remember this debate was about the health of vegans, not whether people can eat meat and be healthy. The only thing I really criticized was that "all-meat diet" which I think is obviously deserving of that criticism. The bottom line here is that eating vegan isn't going to kill you, and on the contrary it would probably will help the average person live longer...

One last thing, but I always find it amusing how every meat eater on the internet only eats the healthiest of meats yet in real life that is certainly the minority of meat eaters.... You I believe, but most I do not. I even have a friend who I workout with, he's a bodybuilder with a large social media following, and his instagram is all about "clean eating" "grass fed" "local" etc etc, yet in real life he eats absolute dog ****, dude literally eats fast food twice a day- I make fun of him constantly for it.

I don't smoke and I drink very little alcohol. My last time at Burger King/McDonalds was sometime around age 20. The last time I went to Burger King, the bread was soggy and there was too much mayonnaise. When I was an undergrad at McGill I probably went to Basha ~2x/week or more. I did go Wendy's once or twice a month in my 20s but that has stopped for several years.

I also sometimes went to Subway, but I stopped going because I got pissed one time when they refused to accept my stamps. The manager tried to be a macho tough guy by declining my stamps. I told him that if he didn't give me discount, I would pay as he wanted me to but then I would never go to his store again. I kept my word.

To the extent that I eat bad food, and I eat too much junk, it's mostly vegetarian-friendly bad foods such as cakes, ice cream, pizza. I don't eat meat on pizza, but even the Margherita pizzas with artichokes, black olives, and green peppers are bad for you. Veganism would have once been a solution for the dessert issue, but the quality of soy-and-coconut-based ice cream (for example) have improved substantially. Veganism, gluten-free, and paleo have actually contributed to widening our cookbooks for junk food.

 

[Andrei79]

It really depends on the cause of your back injury which is something that you should explore with your doctor / physiotherapist. L5/S1, L4/L5, etc etc etc are different injuries requiring different treatments. You may have bad posture, a bad mattress, a bad car seat, bad exercise habits, an excessive gut, weak core muscles, tight hamstrings, etc. Any of those could be causing you to have lower back pain, and we can't tell from over here.

I can tell you my own story. My lower back was severe, caused by stupidity, and took a lot of time and money to heal. I now feel no back pain, if I got amnesia I would not know that I once had a lower back injury. That said, the story will not necessarily be relevant to you.

Very good advice there.

There's one thing about chronic pain is once every organic cause has been ruled out (for chronic back pain, that's the majority of cases), it tends to be a debilitating ilness with a wide heterogeneity in what works for people who end up getting better.

One variable that's often forgotten by MD's (most "physical" MD's I should say), is how prevalent psychosomatic pain is. But the treatment and investigations there are a whole different ball game.

In any case, if you've ruled out every possible mechanical issue... I would go back to training and doing sports. I haven't looked at the recent data there, but from my experience and the few studies I read, that's what's most efficient. You also break the psychological pattern of fear associated with pain and the expectation of pain as well as its treshhold (the more you feel pain, the easier it becomes to feel it, it's quite the problem once it sets in). Maybe cut down on stress and get help if you have any lingering issues in your life.

 

[Andrei79]

My training looks like this atm:

Tuesday: Puck - stick.
Wednesday: Skating practice.
Friday: Hockey
Saturday: Skating practice
Sunday: Puck - stick

Until I go back full time to work, It'll be more hockey classes/games and less practice.

To this I add a 2-3x/week weightlifting routine depending on how I feel and recover (sometimes, I can add some accessory work during the week), which is what I mentioned earlier:

Squats - Bench (usually Sunday)
Deadlift - Front squats (Wednesday)
Bench mouvement +Accessory (Either Tuesday or Friday, depending on how I feel)

Like Kriss said, Press would've been optimal, but my garage ceiling is too low. None of this is set in stone however, I'm pretty flexible with the days.

Don't really follow a diet however. I usually eat meat+carb+vegetable every meal to which I added supplements including protein powder. Summer is coming and I usually do a lot of smoking on my bbq, so I'm not cutting down on ribs, bacon or anything tasty for that matter. At least, not for now.

 

[Andrei79]

I don't smoke and I drink very little alcohol. My last time at Burger King/McDonalds was sometime around age 20. The last time I went to Burger King, the bread was soggy and there was too much mayonnaise. When I was an undergrad at McGill I probably went to Basha ~2x/week or more. I did go Wendy's once or twice a month in my 20s but that has stopped for several years.

I also sometimes went to Subway, but I stopped going because I got pissed one time when they refused to accept my stamps. The manager tried to be a macho tough guy by declining my stamps. I told him that if he didn't give me discount, I would pay as he wanted me to but then I would never go to his store again. I kept my word.

To the extent that I eat bad food, and I eat too much junk, it's mostly vegetarian-friendly bad foods such as cakes, ice cream, pizza. I don't eat meat on pizza, but even the Margherita pizzas with artichokes, black olives, and green peppers are bad for you. Veganism would have once been a solution for the dessert issue, but the quality of soy-and-coconut-based ice cream (for example) have improved substantially. Veganism, gluten-free, and paleo have actually contributed to widening our cookbooks for junk food.

3rd post in a row... but have you ever tried recipes from hotforfoodblog.com ? It's a vegan recipe blog, everything they do is too damn tasty. The vegan crab cakes are incredible.

 

[Mrb1p]

My training looks like this atm:

Tuesday: Puck - stick.
Wednesday: Skating practice.
Friday: Hockey
Saturday: Skating practice
Sunday: Puck - stick

Until I go back full time to work, It'll be more hockey classes/games and less practice.

To this I add a 2-3x/week weightlifting routine depending on how I feel and recover (sometimes, I can add some accessory work during the week), which is what I mentioned earlier:

Squats - Bench (usually Sunday)
Deadlift - Front squats (Wednesday)
Bench mouvement +Accessory (Either Tuesday or Friday, depending on how I feel)

Like Kriss said, Press would've been optimal, but my garage ceiling is too low. None of this is set in stone however, I'm pretty flexible with the days.

Don't really follow a diet however. I usually eat meat+carb+vegetable every meal to which I added supplements including protein powder. Summer is coming and I usually do a lot of smoking on my bbq, so I'm not cutting down on ribs, bacon or anything tasty for that matter. At least, not for now.

Cant do OHPs in Driveway? Street? On a bench? In your yard?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

3rd post in a row... but have you ever tried recipes from hotforfoodblog.com ? It's a vegan recipe blog, everything they do is too damn tasty. The vegan crab cakes are incredible.

I've met Lauren a few times, great girl, and very pretty!

 

[Andrei79]

I've met Lauren a few times, great girl, and very pretty!

Cool stuff, I've tried a few of her recipes and I'm hooked.

 

[Andrei79]

Cant do OHPs in Driveway? Street? On a bench? In your yard?

Nope, I basically can't move the bar and weights out of the 6-9m2 training space I built myself without spending an inordinate amount of time doing it.

 

[Mrb1p]

Id go vegan for that chick. My GF would not approve, but id do it.

Nope, I basically can't move the bar and weights out of the 6-9m2 training space I built myself without spending an inordinate amount of time doing it.

Sucks :/

 

[Andrei79]

Id go vegan for that chick. My GF would not approve, but id do it.


Sucks :/

It does.

Good thing it only cost 3500$.

 

[Fazkovsky]

I’m gonna get 2 sessions of myofacial therapies. I have read good things

I know it takes at least 10 to get results likely weekly

Cheapo

 

[Kriss E]

My training looks like this atm:

Tuesday: Puck - stick.
Wednesday: Skating practice.
Friday: Hockey
Saturday: Skating practice
Sunday: Puck - stick

Until I go back full time to work, It'll be more hockey classes/games and less practice.

To this I add a 2-3x/week weightlifting routine depending on how I feel and recover (sometimes, I can add some accessory work during the week), which is what I mentioned earlier:

Squats - Bench (usually Sunday)
Deadlift - Front squats (Wednesday)
Bench mouvement +Accessory (Either Tuesday or Friday, depending on how I feel)

Like Kriss said, Press would've been optimal, but my garage ceiling is too low. None of this is set in stone however, I'm pretty flexible with the days.

Don't really follow a diet however. I usually eat meat+carb+vegetable every meal to which I added supplements including protein powder. Summer is coming and I usually do a lot of smoking on my bbq, so I'm not cutting down on ribs, bacon or anything tasty for that matter. At least, not for now.

Do some seated press.
Pressing from Floor seated with legs extended in front of you is a great exercise. Terrific to make you focus on bracing your core as you press.


Or you can do them off your bench.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

What do you guys think of hiit training?

 

[Andrei79]

Do some seated press.
Pressing from Floor seated with legs extended in front of you is a great exercise. Terrific to make you focus on bracing your core as you press.


Or you can do them off your bench.

This is a great idea, thanks.

 

[Kriss E]

This is a great idea, thanks.

Cheers mate!

 

[Kriss E]

What do you guys think of hiit training?

Depends what your goal is.
Generally speaking, it's good.

 

[Goodbahd]

It's funny to me how this dialogue has gone from vegans are unhealthy to vegans only live longer because they are wealthier/more educated lol

Talk about moving the goalposts...

I agree. It’s usually the jealous people who don’t have much going on for them in life, so they have an everlasting need to find an excuse for everything, and never truly accept reality for what is, unfortunately for them, they’ll never be able to obtain much in life due to this perpetual lifestyle of being a hater.

Wealth/education has no bearing on life expectancy. It’s all about genetics and lifestyle. You can be wealthy and educated, and still choose to eat like crap, and practice bad habits - but I guess this notion is too difficult for some to understand. Unfortunately, not everyone has a respectable level of intelligence.

 

[Treb]

Stay away from personnal insults. We will start handing thread bans and/or infractions if you can't keep it civil.

 

[Kriss E]

I agree. It’s usually the jealous people who don’t have much going on for them in life, so they have an everlasting need to find an excuse for everything, and never truly accept reality for what is, unfortunately for them, they’ll never be able to obtain much in life due to this perpetual lifestyle of being a hater.

Wealth/education has no bearing on life expectancy. It’s all about genetics and lifestyle. You can be wealthy and educated, and still choose to eat like crap, and practice bad habits - but I guess this notion is too difficult for some to understand. Unfortunately, not everyone has a respectable level of intelligence.

A few things with this...

First off, of course you can be well educated, wealthy, and still make terrible food choices. Nobody ever denied that.

Second, people are discussing in general terms otherwise you can find of people doing bad things and still managing to live a perfectly good long life. Nobody mentions this because it does not need to be, it's already an accepted fact.

Third, poor people usually are less educated, and by definition, they have less income. You're not going to have a fresh produce market selling fresh fancy squeeze juice with tofu burgers and sweet potato fries for 2-3x the price of a McDonald's trio.

All of this is related. If you are poor, you will live in a bad neighbourhood, you will have cheap stuff around, and you will also be less educated. That doesn't mean poor people can't get out of the hood and become very successful healthy individuals. Just like you can be rich right from birth, skip school, end up broke AF and completely unhealthy.
Again, we can find individual cases for everything. But generally speaking, yes, poor people usually are less educated and their environment is worse, which makes having a healthy life less accessible.

Lastly, reading you over these past pages, you come off as someone very frustrated and angry. I think you should get on a less restrictive diet. Grab a juicy cheeseburger or steak man, relax, it'll do you some good.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

Depends what your goal is.
Generally speaking, it's good.

4 years ago i went from couch potatoe to lifting a bit too fast so I injured myself. So now I'm completely healed by physiotherapy, and two months ago I started lifting again, it went really fast and I trained hard so I started to lift heavier. There's a red light that went on in my mind, maybe going from couch potatoe to lifting hard and frequently isn't the best idea.

So I went to a gym where they do it hiit classes, and I intend to do it for 3 months before going back to lifting.

Does it make sense?