CantHaveTkachev
Legends
why is last year irrelevant?
Hall was on that team last year too
#FIRECHIA
- Thread starter Dawn Wall
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Hall was on that team last year too
booyakasha
Registered User
you don't think there should be an adjustment period?
especially considering the circumstances relating to the trade?
CantHaveTkachev
Legends
sure, does Strome get that kind of leeway too?
bobbythebrain
Registered User
- Jul 30, 2016
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I edited my post but heres the answer. I doubt Shero strips his team next year and expects internal growth to take them to the next level
That would be the comparison. You pointing out NJ last year is irrelevant. They were not in the same position as EDM as far talent
booyakasha
Registered User
ooof!
I kind of deserve that. fair play on that comment, but..
Talor Hall has proved more int his career to provde a leeway than Strome has onto his..
I can give Hall the benefit of the doubt to a less than stellar season than to Strome, you know?
Last edited:
bobbythebrain
Registered User
- Jul 30, 2016
- 13,604
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Many GOOD players go to new teams and systems and have and adjustment period. Looch, Sekera, Hall
Strome is not in the same category as them. He is on pace for his norm. Why does he need an adjustment period? He is playing like the 30 point player he has for years
If he was a consistent 50-60 point player, then you would have a point. But Strome is is doing what Strome does
An adjustment means getting back to status quo..not over performing
Strome has been with Drai for what? 5 games now? Pretty sure Hall would have atleast 4 points in that span
booyakasha
Registered User
CantHaveTkachev
Legends
I doubt they strip his team either cause they don’t have any cap constraints
If NJ had 2 contracts worth a combined 21 million, you can bet they’d look at dumping salary
booyakasha
Registered User
Holy f***.
I don't even make trade proposals, yet I'm banned fron the proposals and trade forum.
thats f***in rad ya?
I don't even make trade proposals, yet I'm banned fron the proposals and trade forum.
thats f***in rad ya?
We are in for a treat!
According to some rumours, we are interested in a 5m 30 goal scoring winger. He is contracted for 2 years.
That would mean we would need to send some salary back for next season. We have only RNH for that. Too bad that our center depth isn't good enough to send just him. We need a replacement center.
No worries, the turd is on it!
Hoffman(25% retained)+pageau for RNH, a disliked winger in Puljujärvi and our 1st to make up that retain! Woop woop!
Party on!
According to some rumours, we are interested in a 5m 30 goal scoring winger. He is contracted for 2 years.
That would mean we would need to send some salary back for next season. We have only RNH for that. Too bad that our center depth isn't good enough to send just him. We need a replacement center.
No worries, the turd is on it!
Hoffman(25% retained)+pageau for RNH, a disliked winger in Puljujärvi and our 1st to make up that retain! Woop woop!
Party on!
Terrific argument. Really made me see things in a new light.
Err, it would appear the single playoff appearance in three attempts is the one-off, unless you're awarding the 15-16 Oilers a moral Stanley Cup victory as well.
Poile realized his mistakes, and has since become one of the league's most proactive general managers at addressing his club's weaknesses. Note that he actually won that Executive of the Year award you mentioned- and has not taken his foot off the pedal since.
Chiarelli, meanwhile, was apparently content to make the playoffs one time. They are not comparable managers at all.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...adding-a-winger.2387757/page-7#post-135831739
I know right? Why on earth am I mentioning a draft pick Chiarelli ****ed up in a discussion about draft picks? I should definitely contribute to this narrative of yours instead rather than posting pesky things like facts.
And so again like I said, it's "too early" because you know you can't defend it. You'll claim it's too early to assess for the next two decades, and only upon their respective retirements will you be brave enough to even formulate an opinion.
What "position" are they in, exactly? They're a middling team showing a pulse for the first time since moving to Winnipeg. What exactly do you think that's worth?
My entering this fray was to try to bring some reasoned and objective dialogue into what seemed like an emotional train wreck but I got run over by the train.
Yes for sure I am trying to find a dialogue and some semblance of middle ground here because I do not feel that the issue is as black and white as its been portrayed nor should it be as emotional as emotional business decisions typically turn out to be terrible decisions with far reaching consequences.
First let me say (again) that I totally get the frustration. I am frustrated as well and I think most Oiler fans are very frustrated with the year thus far. I get that the expedient thing to do is make someone responsible for the season by having them lose their job. And I get that Chiarelli is the main target in all of this frustration, moreso than the coach who can only coach the players given to him. I understand the concerns that "what if" he messes up another year (if you in fact think he has messed up this year). So yeah, I get it but much of this an emotional argument based on frustration, fear and worry. One has to step back and be calm and make a reasoned rational approach.
I will also say I am not drinking the Chiarelli kool-aid, a Chiarelli supporter or a Chiarelli Cheerleader. I merely have said multiple times, that as I get the fans frustration, I also get why Chiarelli did what he did and understand his rationale, or his long term plan of building a sustainable playoff team that can compete for the Stanley Cup under the constraints of the Salary Cap.
I also believe critical thinkers and intelligent people learn from mistakes of themselves and others. Chiarelli made some cap and trade mistakes in Boston but I believe good people learn from them and he does not want to be forced into a position of being at the cap ceiling to begin a year if he does not have to, and this is echoed by many GMs who did not spend to the cap this year, who normally have in the past. Cap space is taking on more and more importance as cap space gives a team flexibility to make short term decisions whereas without it your hands are tied and positions are forced. To say Chiarelli is not intelligent or will repeat his mistakes is again an emotional argument based on fear and speculation. Will he win every trade? Nope. You just expect that he will win more than he loses.
I look at the calling of the firing of Chiarelli through the lens of my pre-retirement profession which meant being patient with proven people who were paid a lot of money in sometimes difficult markets working a long term plan and making very tough decisions daily, and that if I had a dollar for every rumour, innuendo and false set of circumstances I heard, I could buy the Oilers from Katz. We want to believe as fans we read twitter, the papers (if anyone actually reads them anymore), hearing from insiders and bloggers on multiple media sources daily, that we know what is going on in the league or have a pretty good semblance of what goes on, who is worth what, who is offered for trade, etc, but the reality is we as fans don't have a clue.
The insiders like McKenzie and Friedman (who most consider the best in the league) have said many times that what they know and report on is a mere fraction of what goes on and much of their job involves speculation. So when we say we could have signed this guy to a lower term or traded for that guy or this player would have done this on our team if he was still here, has no basis in fact and is again, an emotional speculative argument. For me those discussions are worthless as they literally add nothing tangible to the discussion and are merely matters of opinion. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who knows? Time will tell or in most cases of speculative discussion time will never tell because it will never happen.
Chiarellis job involves making very tough decisions that impact the short and long term of the team / business. Long term means planning ahead and working the plan with flexibility, scalability and reasoned adjustability to circumstances that are within and beyond ones control which flows into the short term. He is building a team for long term viability and playoff sustainability within the confines of restrictive salary limitations while having the best person under his employ in Connor McDavid. The Oilers have never had to be too concerned about the cap cieling before, and while having the games best player. As Pittsburgh, Chicago and LA will tell you, it is not easy to afford having superstars. Really tough decisions have to be made, and often that comes with the wrath of the fans, angry about their favourite player being traded off for futures or weaker assets. That is the reality of the salary cap and welcome to it. There will be many more of those tough decisions ahead, hence Chiarellis publicly saying we must be able to grow from within and manage the cap. That is our reality.
Chiarelli was given a 5 year contract, the norm for a GM. The reason is that a body of work by a GM is long term and requires time to see if the team is moving in the direction planned. Is 2.5 years enough time? To frustrated fans it is already too long. Again I get the sentiment but do not believe that it is long enough to judge the team. The end of this season at the bare minimum is required to properly and reasonable evaluate the team and the performance of the coach, GM, scouts, and other management positions throughout the organization. If a decision is made at years end, rather than mid season, a much larger crop of candidates is available to interview whereas it is far more difficult in season. Most teams will not let you speak to their employees in season. So right there alone waiting till seasons end is the reasoned approach for not firing him now.
In my opinion, 3 years is not long enough to effectively judge the breadth of an NHL GMs work. 4 years is required because of the long term nature of player development in addition to how holes are filled in the organization under cap constraints, with both internal contracts and extensions to signing of free agents this offseason, and then seeing how the season plays itself out. I totally understand many fans do not want to hear this after being told to be patient with a host of players who never had team success here and are worried about the future "what ifs". But the beauty of "what if" is it cuts both ways. As well this season is far from over. After the 4th year we have allowed some if his draft picks and young players who were here before him to develop, new players to acclimatize another year, chemistry to build, and the team to move the dial forward. So unless this team goes full Arizona, I see no need to fire this GM before the 4th year, one who has the track record, experience and brought a cup and a competitive team to Boston and I believe a better cap manager today than he was yesterday.
Anyway I could go on for 20 more paragraphs but here is some bullet points as not why I "like" Chiarelli, but why he should be given every opportunity to move ahead with his long term plan for the duration of his contract, unless again the team regresses in the 4th year.
1. What we were: Prior to Chiarelli we had a one dimensional soft team that was the literal laughing stock of the league. Those teams were one dimensional, uncompetitive and soft, built by people with zero experience in building hockey teams.
2. Who we hired: Bob Nicholson is Peter Chiarelli's boss. Bob is a proven winner with Hockey Canada, an organization that has been successful taking the long term approach to player development with hockey in Canada. Bob has worked with Peter before. Bobs talent is identifying winning hockey talent at the managerial level and letting them manage. There is more than one set of eyes on the prize, not just Peters and I cant think of many better people than Bob Nicholson.
3. Experience counts: Chiarelli has the track record, the Cup and the experience in this league in the cap era. If I am going somewhere, I want someone who has been there before and knows how to do get there. Some may say it is not important. I have done it both ways in my professional life. I believe you need someone on your team with that experience. Obviously Bob Nicholson thought so as well and stated as much in his hiring presser.
4. The old core: The previous regime publicly stated they would not trade the "core". That core was RNH, Hall, Eberle, Yakupov and Schultz. A Centre, 3 wingers and an offensive D. The team was weak everywhere in particular on defence and in goal. Any NHL GM with experience will tell you that you always build from the Goalie and D out. Wingers are the last thing you need and are easy to get. We did it the opposite way and preached patience with our youth. Our team paid the price of this historically disastrous rebuild and several of those players paid the price by losing confidence in their games and themselves.
5. The new core: The new core has been contractually identified as McDavid, Draisatl, RNH, Lucic, Larson, Klefbom and I believe you will be able to add Nurse to that equation at the end of the year. 3 C, 3D and 1 cup winning W who brings intangibles this team sorely lacks. Defence. Centre. And Talbot in goal although I am not sure he can be considered "core" as his is a shorter term contract. But he's a damn good goalie.
6. Trades.
Yakupov and Schultz - We traded those players for little return because that is what they were worth on the market at that time. If they were worth more we would have gotten more, because that is how a market works. 1 of those players was rehabilitated by another team, something we could not do because the player no longer could work out here in this market. He was booed mercilessly by fans whenever he touched the puck and both players and management said it was seriously affecting him personally and professionally (paraphrasing of course) Another player is on his 3rd team and a regular healthy scratch. Not even Vegas took a gamble on him for free.
Hall - The Taylor Hall trade was to do two things. 1 open up space to sign someone like Lucic and 2 to get in a defensively minded defenceman. The results last year spoke for themselves. But it left a bitter taste in the mouths of many fans and advanced stats aficionados. This group of angry fans today are using the teams awful start this year to scream "I Told You So" and demand retribution for "terrible signings and trades" by calling for Chiarelli to be fired. It was and remains so controversial to Oiler fans that moderators now forbid the discussion of the trade. I am on the side that the trade was a necessary evil, am happy with it. Full disclosure, I was never a huge Taylor Hall fan and wish him well in Jersey. However what he does there now is irrelevant to the Oilers of today but it should be stated that their GM had to have a heart to heart with Hall and let him know his performance last year was unacceptable.
Eberle - By his own admission, regained his confidence and playing well offensively with the Islanders. At the time his worth here was questionable based upon his performance in the playoffs and season in which, by his own admission, not my opinion or yours, he struggled. He is paid a big ticket. If Chiarelli waits, and the player plays poorly again he is going into the last year of his ELC and worth perhaps even less. Either way it was a calculated risk to lose his offence, which in the playoffs was non existent and his defensive game was costing teams games. Like Hall in Jersey, what he does with the NYI is irrelevant to the Oilers of today. Will Strome be Eberle, nope. But he wasn't meant to be either. Is it a loss. Probably but a necessary evil however I am not willing to judge Strome till I see him in games that matter, the playoffs.
Reinhart - Yup a bad trade. A really bad trade. But now suddenly Barzal and Beauvillier were ex Oilers? Did I miss a meeting?
7. Cap Space & Contracts. Here is where it gets contentious with the Fire Chia crowd because most of his signings are considered bad ones. Russell and Lucic are the shining examples of "down the road". An NHL GM worries about down the road, down the road. Not today. If those players help you win now you sign them now, and if the market says a 4x4 or 6x8 you do it. And if you look at the players signing contracts when these players were signed, they are comparable to the market, whether you like advanced stats or not. In fact I posted a long list of D signings that are comparable to Russells earlier. (That was completely ignored by the way in the conversation here btw) That is the market and contracts are always moveable. Do you want all players on long term contracts with restrictive trade clauses, of course not but we dont have that and with our youth and cap restrictions we will not have that. As for the cap space created by today, with all due respect most of what I have read in this thread from the fire-Chiarelli crowd, they do not understand the cap or its workings.
The cap has been misquoted as being $7M, 12M and 33M and how it can be used is also misunderstood. We had little cap space, $5M if we did not want to use bonus overage into next year which Chiarelli said we will avoid. We were open to a very serious offer sheet threat on Draisatl, whether fans want to believe it would not have happened is irrelevant. Chiarelli had to ensure that would not happen and to do that he needed cap space. This cap space went unused because by his admission there was nobody worthwhile signing in the off season to that kind of money and 1 year term, and that we can use the space more effectively to round out the roster in season closer to the deadline. That is completely justifiable and makes perfect sense to me.
8. Internal Progression. We have had some injuries and sickness that has caused regression and had some players play regress this year, both out of Chiarellis control. Players were expected to progress and we are now seeing it with JP. It has allowed us to run with 3C and now that JP is improving along with the Camelleri trade and bumps with Kassian and Khairas performance, the teams performance has improved dramatically. This lends itself to patience. If the progression continues the rest of the year then the internal progression among some players will have been successful and with others not. Not all players develop in a straight line and some will go back. Players are finding their games now, let it play itself out and make adjustments at the end of the year in the off season as needed and as cap space allows. Could he have done more, maybe. But not a fireable offence in my opinion. The team doesn't rise and fall on bottom 6 players. The lack of a quality NHL backup however, thats puzzling for me especially when the coach did not seem to trust LB when Talbot was struggling badly.
9. Speculative signings This is worthless conversation as it assumes the fan knows who was available for what. To criticize the GM on speculation is worthless commentary in my opinion. We could have traded Eberle for much more this season. Sorry but nobody can speak with that certainty, least of all fans of the game, who are as far removed from NHL GM offices as anyone as to who we could have signed outside of free agents and that list was painfully thin.
10. Patience This is the four letter word that gets the most heated reaction. But it is necessary and warranted. Impatience for the short term satisfaction of "holding someone accountable" can result in an even worse situation developing, something that this fan base should know by now. The what ifs, the fear of the unknown, has to be put aside for patience to see if the person Bob Nicholson hired can execute the plan approved by upper management and ownership.
I dont really want to continue on beyond this as I really do not have much more to say and believe that I will only hear more of the same from the same posters.
It is patently obvious that starting with the Taylor Hall trade to the Eberle trade to our current standings that this fan base is irrevocably and possibly permanently divided into two camps. I am in the Patience camp whatever camp happens to be. If after 4 years we have regressed behind Year 2, then fine, its not working and we move on. But it wont be the doom and gloom others fear it may be if we wait 1 more year.
Thats it, thats all, thanks for listening @harpoon.
harpoon
Registered User
- Dec 23, 2005
- 14,285
- 11,558
First of all thank you for taking the time to make that post. It's long but I would encourage everyone to read it because I doubt that a more reasonable summation of the position will be articulated by anyone else on this board. If you want to know why some posters are still supporting Chiarelli, read the damn post. And if I see one person posting tldr, after an honest effort was made, I may lose my mind.
I'm reserving the right to comment only on the points that I feel kind of strongly about, and I'm going to refer back to your earlier list summarizing the complaints of the Fire Chiarelli crowd as you see them.
I agree that things are not black and white - especially in hockey where almost anything can happen. I also agree that the men responsible for the hirings and firings in the organization (Katz and Nicholson) should under no circumstances make any emotional decisions regarding Chiarelli's tenure with the club.
I would also like to add that we are not NHL executives and our jobs do not depend on what we post here. With that understanding, it may be somewhat unreasonable to expect a diverse collection of internet bloggers to exercise the same degree of restraint one anticipates from NHL executives when it comes to emotional responses to the Oilers poor showing thus far. Be calm and take a reasoned, rational response is not the common reaction of fans. I kind of feel like you may be asking for too much here. Not that we maybe shouldn't strive for that, just that it seems unlikely that most posters will ever get there, or even necessarily want to get there. Fan is short for fanatic after all.
I gotta be honest, I have a problem with this one. You acknowledge that Chiarelli has made mistakes with the cap, mistakes on trades with his former club. And lets not beat around the bush when we say that some of those were serious mistakes. Your position seems to be that critical thinkers and intelligent people don't repeat their mistakes. It seems to me that you dismiss a lot of legitimate concern under the heading 'fear and speculation' while perhaps being over confident in the faith you place on the ability of 'intelligence' to overcome circumstance.
Let me give you one quick example. Chiarelli is simultaneously in both the most advantageous (on ice) and disadvantageous ($$$$) position because of having McDavid on his team. Then probably contrary to what he had predicted, Draisaitl breaks out big time a year before he is due a new deal. Imagine what Chiarelli must have been thinking as he tried to reconcile this situation with the cap ceiling. Knowing that he had just signed Lucic to a monster contract and had Eberle and RNH already making $6 million.
Of course McDavid is going to get paid whatever he asks. And the former agent in Chiarelli knows that the Draisaitl ask is going to be based at least in part on whatever McDavid gets. He's knows he's going to have maybe $35 million committed to five guys. He's already partially hooped based on timing and circumstances not entirely within his control. Starts wishing he hadn't signed Lucic? Maybe, but the optics on moving him would be so bad he can't even really consider it. Considers trading Draisaitl while his value is at an all time high? Maybe, but he's 'learned' from his past mistakes (trading Seguin) and quickly discards that idea as a risk too big to take. That leaves him with RNH and Eberle both beaten down by years of playing on the worst team in the league and coming off disappointing playoff performances. What's an 'intelligent' man to do?
He already knows he's been fired once before for making a bad trade due to cap restraints (Boychuck) and vilified by his current fan base for making the 'need based' trade of a favorite (Hall). So he picks what he considers to be the least valuable, most 'replaceable' of his big ticket players and dangles him out on the market. Problem is other GMs aren't stupid and they see the cap situation Chiarelli is going to be facing. They know he's trying to pawn off the asset he values the least and they line up with low ball offers. He ends up taking back a player making almost half what his former asset was making (one year less remaining mind you) with none of the sizzle the former provided. In short, he winds up the lopsided loser in yet another trade. You and I may have some sympathy with the circumstances that conspired against him (Draisaitl breaking out the way he did, timing of Lucic signing, both RNH and Eberle lowering their trade value with ineffective playoff performances) but that's why he gets paid big money to play in the big leagues.
I say all that in an attempt to refute your suggestion that intelligent people don't repeat their mistakes. And your charge that fans who have less faith than you are basing their judgments entirely on fear and speculation.
My first reaction to this paragraph is well so what? If we removed all speculative discussion from this site it would be a mighty boring place. I would go so far as to say that the intent of this board is to foster and encourage speculative discussion. I don't see what's wrong with that. Again it feels like you are looking at this from the position of an NHL executive rather than a fan blogger. I have no such illusions about myself or the posts I make. I watch the Oilers for fun. For entertainment. So when I see posters declaring for example 'oh we were bound to lose the Eberle trade no matter what' or 'Eberle wouldn't be scoring at this rate in Edmonton' as if these were facts that we must all agree to, I must confess that I get a little irritated. Seems like speculation only works one way for those folks. I speculate it to be so, therefore it is fact.
Absolutely agree with this. I don't subscribe to @Soundwave posts on this topic at all. Firing Chiarelli now doesn't accomplish much. I say that knowing full well that the 'emotional' fan in me has already called for him to be fired immediately at least twice this season
. Seriously, I can wait for the off season. I doubt that Chiarelli is looking to make another big trade during the season anyway so the likelihood of him giving RNH away for peanuts is almost nothing. And as you say, the off season is obviously the best time to shop for a new candidate should Katz and Nicholson decide to take that route.
No doubt. The former Oilers were one dimensional and soft. I got so sick of this team getting sand kicked in their faces while pretend tough guys like Ference stood around at the bus stop. One thing I wholeheartedly applaud Chiarelli for is the way he changed this club into one that has multiple guys who are sand kickers rather than receivers. Its a massive improvement that he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
Meh. I'm less convinced than you seem to be about Nicholson's brilliance. Managing Team Canada isn't nearly the same thing as running an NHL franchise. The best players in the nation line up begging you to pick them to play for free on Team Canada. We also have the best crop to pick from. Gotta be a lot smarter to make it in the NHL.
I don't blame Chiarelli at all for Yakupov. I never liked the player and I would have been happy to be rid of him for nothing which is pretty much what we ended up getting. Schultz is a different matter. Many fans on this site said he 'quit' and littered the site with unfair and abusive posts. I still believe he was much more valuable than a third round pick. Chiarelli did the team no favors with this move at all. We could sure use Justin Schultz this season. Or last for that matter.
Not supposed to talk about this anymore. Dislike the trade in spite of the fact that I recognize Adam Larsson to be a useful player.
I think my feelings on this trade are well known on the board. I'll just address one thing.
Those 'what ifs' cut both ways remember.
What if he had rebounded? And besides, I've posted before that it makes no sense to say Eberle would be worth less had Chiarelli waited a season to trade him. He would have had only one season left on his deal at that point. Its talking out of both sides of ones mouth to say that Eberle is worth very little and then suggest at the same time that any team trading for him would rather have him signed for two further years than just the one.
Thanks for recognizing its a truly awful trade. We had some posters, well mostly one, on this site who insisted for months that it was a great trade. They'd seen Reinhart 'real good' with the Oil Kings don't you know. Those posters are awful quiet these days. Seriously though, this is the kind of trade that should get people fired. A first and a second round pick for a guy who flushes out of the league less than a year later? A guy who gets waived by an expansion team? Its tough to see how pointing out that the Oilers 'might' not have picked Barzal (those old what ifs again) is any kind of comfort. Just brutal asset management.
Yeah I agree. Its tough to dialogue with a poster who thinks we have $33 million in cap space. I've sensed your frustration with this point in particular. I think there is an onus on us as fans to be as reasonably well informed about the workings of the cap as we can be.
I'm still not convinced that Chiarelli is doing a great job of managing the cap. Like I said above, he was put in a bad spot by some circumstances, but he contributed as well. Lucic is an overpay. Love the guy but the deal is too long. Russel is an overpay. He can play on my team any day, but again too long. Draisaitl is an overpay. Even shaving a half million or a year off each of those deals makes the team a lot better off. I never get the sense that Chiarelli is negotiating from a position of strength. I mean as you say, we aren't privy, but really four years for Russel and a NMC? 8.5 for Draisaitl. Seven years for Lucic? C'mon.
Yes, some aspects have been out of Chiarelli's control. I never accept illness or injury as an excuse. Sorry all NHL teams deal with those factors. How would you like to be a Canucks fan this morning? The Klefbom regression was big, but Nurse stepped up large. For me the biggest thing was the belief Chiarelli obviously had in Caggiula. It calls into question for me his ability to judge a young player. Secondary to that was his belief in Benning. I still see a useful player in Slepyshev, as Chiarelli obviously did, and we both may be proven wrong there. Did Chiarelli believe in Brossoit? I think its clear he did and that bet has also come back to bite him. So on the internal progression front Chiarelli is batting 1/4. 2/5 if you want to give him Khaira. Although I tend to agree with @StevenF1919 who said Chiarelli was counting on Caggiula, Strome and Slepyshev, not Khaira. I think Khaira has been found money for the team this season.
I never got to your other list, but damn I'm as tired of posting as you probably are of reading. I may swing back to it but either way I appreciate the dialogue. Cheers.
I'm reserving the right to comment only on the points that I feel kind of strongly about, and I'm going to refer back to your earlier list summarizing the complaints of the Fire Chiarelli crowd as you see them.
I agree that things are not black and white - especially in hockey where almost anything can happen. I also agree that the men responsible for the hirings and firings in the organization (Katz and Nicholson) should under no circumstances make any emotional decisions regarding Chiarelli's tenure with the club.
I would also like to add that we are not NHL executives and our jobs do not depend on what we post here. With that understanding, it may be somewhat unreasonable to expect a diverse collection of internet bloggers to exercise the same degree of restraint one anticipates from NHL executives when it comes to emotional responses to the Oilers poor showing thus far. Be calm and take a reasoned, rational response is not the common reaction of fans. I kind of feel like you may be asking for too much here. Not that we maybe shouldn't strive for that, just that it seems unlikely that most posters will ever get there, or even necessarily want to get there. Fan is short for fanatic after all.
I gotta be honest, I have a problem with this one. You acknowledge that Chiarelli has made mistakes with the cap, mistakes on trades with his former club. And lets not beat around the bush when we say that some of those were serious mistakes. Your position seems to be that critical thinkers and intelligent people don't repeat their mistakes. It seems to me that you dismiss a lot of legitimate concern under the heading 'fear and speculation' while perhaps being over confident in the faith you place on the ability of 'intelligence' to overcome circumstance.
Let me give you one quick example. Chiarelli is simultaneously in both the most advantageous (on ice) and disadvantageous ($$$$) position because of having McDavid on his team. Then probably contrary to what he had predicted, Draisaitl breaks out big time a year before he is due a new deal. Imagine what Chiarelli must have been thinking as he tried to reconcile this situation with the cap ceiling. Knowing that he had just signed Lucic to a monster contract and had Eberle and RNH already making $6 million.
Of course McDavid is going to get paid whatever he asks. And the former agent in Chiarelli knows that the Draisaitl ask is going to be based at least in part on whatever McDavid gets. He's knows he's going to have maybe $35 million committed to five guys. He's already partially hooped based on timing and circumstances not entirely within his control. Starts wishing he hadn't signed Lucic? Maybe, but the optics on moving him would be so bad he can't even really consider it. Considers trading Draisaitl while his value is at an all time high? Maybe, but he's 'learned' from his past mistakes (trading Seguin) and quickly discards that idea as a risk too big to take. That leaves him with RNH and Eberle both beaten down by years of playing on the worst team in the league and coming off disappointing playoff performances. What's an 'intelligent' man to do?
He already knows he's been fired once before for making a bad trade due to cap restraints (Boychuck) and vilified by his current fan base for making the 'need based' trade of a favorite (Hall). So he picks what he considers to be the least valuable, most 'replaceable' of his big ticket players and dangles him out on the market. Problem is other GMs aren't stupid and they see the cap situation Chiarelli is going to be facing. They know he's trying to pawn off the asset he values the least and they line up with low ball offers. He ends up taking back a player making almost half what his former asset was making (one year less remaining mind you) with none of the sizzle the former provided. In short, he winds up the lopsided loser in yet another trade. You and I may have some sympathy with the circumstances that conspired against him (Draisaitl breaking out the way he did, timing of Lucic signing, both RNH and Eberle lowering their trade value with ineffective playoff performances) but that's why he gets paid big money to play in the big leagues.
I say all that in an attempt to refute your suggestion that intelligent people don't repeat their mistakes. And your charge that fans who have less faith than you are basing their judgments entirely on fear and speculation.
My first reaction to this paragraph is well so what? If we removed all speculative discussion from this site it would be a mighty boring place. I would go so far as to say that the intent of this board is to foster and encourage speculative discussion. I don't see what's wrong with that. Again it feels like you are looking at this from the position of an NHL executive rather than a fan blogger. I have no such illusions about myself or the posts I make. I watch the Oilers for fun. For entertainment. So when I see posters declaring for example 'oh we were bound to lose the Eberle trade no matter what' or 'Eberle wouldn't be scoring at this rate in Edmonton' as if these were facts that we must all agree to, I must confess that I get a little irritated. Seems like speculation only works one way for those folks. I speculate it to be so, therefore it is fact.
Absolutely agree with this. I don't subscribe to @Soundwave posts on this topic at all. Firing Chiarelli now doesn't accomplish much. I say that knowing full well that the 'emotional' fan in me has already called for him to be fired immediately at least twice this season
. Seriously, I can wait for the off season. I doubt that Chiarelli is looking to make another big trade during the season anyway so the likelihood of him giving RNH away for peanuts is almost nothing. And as you say, the off season is obviously the best time to shop for a new candidate should Katz and Nicholson decide to take that route.No doubt. The former Oilers were one dimensional and soft. I got so sick of this team getting sand kicked in their faces while pretend tough guys like Ference stood around at the bus stop. One thing I wholeheartedly applaud Chiarelli for is the way he changed this club into one that has multiple guys who are sand kickers rather than receivers. Its a massive improvement that he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
Meh. I'm less convinced than you seem to be about Nicholson's brilliance. Managing Team Canada isn't nearly the same thing as running an NHL franchise. The best players in the nation line up begging you to pick them to play for free on Team Canada. We also have the best crop to pick from. Gotta be a lot smarter to make it in the NHL.
I don't blame Chiarelli at all for Yakupov. I never liked the player and I would have been happy to be rid of him for nothing which is pretty much what we ended up getting. Schultz is a different matter. Many fans on this site said he 'quit' and littered the site with unfair and abusive posts. I still believe he was much more valuable than a third round pick. Chiarelli did the team no favors with this move at all. We could sure use Justin Schultz this season. Or last for that matter.
Not supposed to talk about this anymore. Dislike the trade in spite of the fact that I recognize Adam Larsson to be a useful player.
I think my feelings on this trade are well known on the board. I'll just address one thing.
Those 'what ifs' cut both ways remember.
What if he had rebounded? And besides, I've posted before that it makes no sense to say Eberle would be worth less had Chiarelli waited a season to trade him. He would have had only one season left on his deal at that point. Its talking out of both sides of ones mouth to say that Eberle is worth very little and then suggest at the same time that any team trading for him would rather have him signed for two further years than just the one.Thanks for recognizing its a truly awful trade. We had some posters, well mostly one, on this site who insisted for months that it was a great trade. They'd seen Reinhart 'real good' with the Oil Kings don't you know. Those posters are awful quiet these days. Seriously though, this is the kind of trade that should get people fired. A first and a second round pick for a guy who flushes out of the league less than a year later? A guy who gets waived by an expansion team? Its tough to see how pointing out that the Oilers 'might' not have picked Barzal (those old what ifs again) is any kind of comfort. Just brutal asset management.
Yeah I agree. Its tough to dialogue with a poster who thinks we have $33 million in cap space. I've sensed your frustration with this point in particular. I think there is an onus on us as fans to be as reasonably well informed about the workings of the cap as we can be.
I'm still not convinced that Chiarelli is doing a great job of managing the cap. Like I said above, he was put in a bad spot by some circumstances, but he contributed as well. Lucic is an overpay. Love the guy but the deal is too long. Russel is an overpay. He can play on my team any day, but again too long. Draisaitl is an overpay. Even shaving a half million or a year off each of those deals makes the team a lot better off. I never get the sense that Chiarelli is negotiating from a position of strength. I mean as you say, we aren't privy, but really four years for Russel and a NMC? 8.5 for Draisaitl. Seven years for Lucic? C'mon.
Yes, some aspects have been out of Chiarelli's control. I never accept illness or injury as an excuse. Sorry all NHL teams deal with those factors. How would you like to be a Canucks fan this morning? The Klefbom regression was big, but Nurse stepped up large. For me the biggest thing was the belief Chiarelli obviously had in Caggiula. It calls into question for me his ability to judge a young player. Secondary to that was his belief in Benning. I still see a useful player in Slepyshev, as Chiarelli obviously did, and we both may be proven wrong there. Did Chiarelli believe in Brossoit? I think its clear he did and that bet has also come back to bite him. So on the internal progression front Chiarelli is batting 1/4. 2/5 if you want to give him Khaira. Although I tend to agree with @StevenF1919 who said Chiarelli was counting on Caggiula, Strome and Slepyshev, not Khaira. I think Khaira has been found money for the team this season.
I never got to your other list, but damn I'm as tired of posting as you probably are of reading. I may swing back to it but either way I appreciate the dialogue. Cheers.
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- Sep 27, 2017
- 3,634
- 2,906
Lol wall of text.
keep rambling and rambling and rambling.
He has screwed the team beyond repair.
keep rambling and rambling and rambling.
He has screwed the team beyond repair.
McNuge
Registered User
1) Added a #1 goalie (does it really matter how he got Talbot?).
2) Added balance up front with power forwards who counterbalance the skilled centers, one of whom who got for nothing in a trade and another who has been a good player here despite the unfavorable contract. Kassian is one of the best 4th liners in the league.
3) Added two arguably three (if you consider Russell a low end #4) top 4 Dmen in 2 offseasons. Not going to mention the Russell contract because I'm just focusing on current impact, he was a top 4 Dman on a winning team last season. It was a steep price to get Larsson but I'm talking primarily about Dmen impact here, not what it cost to get them. The defense last season when healthy was the best the Oilers have had in years.
4) Klefbom contract. He's struggling this season but that still doesn't take away from the fact that it's a good contract.
5) Hired new scouts who seem to be drafting better but that's obviously an incomplete until we see these guys actually develop.
Of course there are a lot of negatives to balance out the positives which have been discussed ad nauseam but I was just trying to offer up another point of view. I do think there is so recency bias because of the poor results this season. I'm trying to base my evaluation on the entire body of work, not just one season of results, but I can also understand why some see a lot of negatives as well because this season has been a failure.
CantHaveTkachev
Legends
except this season isn't even half over
Bruins teams under Chiarelli:
3 Conference Finals appearances
2 Stanley Cup Finals appearances
1 Stanley Cup
1 President's Trophy
Playoff series record 9-6
averages wins in 8 full seasons: 45 wins
average points in 8 full seasons: 99 pts
yeah, I'd say he's a pretty good comparable
"not optimistic"....yeah, totally nailed the bottom 5 part
quite the stretch
because he didn't pick him and you have no knowledge he would've picked him in the first place
defend what? you're honestly ready to give up on guys like Yamamoto after 6 months?
speaking of brave, where were you on here telling us about this "failed" picks?
but hey, your hindsight is 20/20
what in blue hell does their past have to do with being a contending team this year?
KeithIsActuallyBad
You thrust your pelvis, huh!
The Oilers need to make a huge run to make me change my mind or acquire a very nice asset without giving anything up. Chia's asset management has been questionable at best with some great deals (Maroon/Talbot) and some not so great ones (Hall/Eberle/Reinhart). He seems to capitalize in small deals but fail in larger ones. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with him making any more significant deals.
If this team at least gets to within striking distance of the playoffs maybe give him one more year but my biggest worry is that this team won't ever be a contender because of how he's handcuffed them with lengthy deals to many players.
If this team at least gets to within striking distance of the playoffs maybe give him one more year but my biggest worry is that this team won't ever be a contender because of how he's handcuffed them with lengthy deals to many players.
First of all thank you for taking the time to make that post. It's long but I would encourage everyone to read it because I doubt that a more reasonable summation of the position will be articulated by anyone else on this board. If you want to know why some posters are still supporting Chiarelli, read the damn post. And if I see one person posting tldr, after an honest effort was made, I may lose my mind.
I'm reserving the right to comment only on the points that I feel kind of strongly about, and I'm going to refer back to your earlier list summarizing the complaints of the Fire Chiarelli crowd as you see them.
I agree that things are not black and white - especially in hockey where almost anything can happen. I also agree that the men responsible for the hirings and firings in the organization (Katz and Nicholson) should under no circumstances make any emotional decisions regarding Chiarelli's tenure with the club.
I would also like to add that we are not NHL executives and our jobs do not depend on what we post here. With that understanding, it may be somewhat unreasonable to expect a diverse collection of internet bloggers to exercise the same degree of restraint one anticipates from NHL executives when it comes to emotional responses to the Oilers poor showing thus far. Be calm and take a reasoned, rational response is not the common reaction of fans. I kind of feel like you may be asking for too much here. Not that we maybe shouldn't strive for that, just that it seems unlikely that most posters will ever get there, or even necessarily want to get there. Fan is short for fanatic after all.
I gotta be honest, I have a problem with this one. You acknowledge that Chiarelli has made mistakes with the cap, mistakes on trades with his former club. And lets not beat around the bush when we say that some of those were serious mistakes. Your position seems to be that critical thinkers and intelligent people don't repeat their mistakes. It seems to me that you dismiss a lot of legitimate concern under the heading 'fear and speculation' while perhaps being over confident in the faith you place on the ability of 'intelligence' to overcome circumstance.
Let me give you one quick example. Chiarelli is simultaneously in both the most advantageous (on ice) and disadvantageous ($$$$) position because of having McDavid on his team. Then probably contrary to what he had predicted, Draisaitl breaks out big time a year before he is due a new deal. Imagine what Chiarelli must have been thinking as he tried to reconcile this situation with the cap ceiling. Knowing that he had just signed Lucic to a monster contract and had Eberle and RNH already making $6 million.
Of course McDavid is going to get paid whatever he asks. And the former agent in Chiarelli knows that the Draisaitl ask is going to be based at least in part on whatever McDavid gets. He's knows he's going to have maybe $35 million committed to five guys. He's already partially hooped based on timing and circumstances not entirely within his control. Starts wishing he hadn't signed Lucic? Maybe, but the optics on moving him would be so bad he can't even really consider it. Considers trading Draisaitl while his value is at an all time high? Maybe, but he's 'learned' from his past mistakes (trading Seguin) and quickly discards that idea as a risk too big to take. That leaves him with RNH and Eberle both beaten down by years of playing on the worst team in the league and coming off disappointing playoff performances. What's an 'intelligent' man to do?
He already knows he's been fired once before for making a bad trade due to cap restraints (Boychuck) and vilified by his current fan base for making the 'need based' trade of a favorite (Hall). So he picks what he considers to be the least valuable, most 'replaceable' of his big ticket players and dangles him out on the market. Problem is other GMs aren't stupid and they see the cap situation Chiarelli is going to be facing. They know he's trying to pawn off the asset he values the least and they line up with low ball offers. He ends up taking back a player making almost half what his former asset was making (one year less remaining mind you) with none of the sizzle the former provided. In short, he winds up the lopsided loser in yet another trade. You and I may have some sympathy with the circumstances that conspired against him (Draisaitl breaking out the way he did, timing of Lucic signing, both RNH and Eberle lowering their trade value with ineffective playoff performances) but that's why he gets paid big money to play in the big leagues.
I say all that in an attempt to refute your suggestion that intelligent people don't repeat their mistakes. And your charge that fans who have less faith than you are basing their judgments entirely on fear and speculation.
My first reaction to this paragraph is well so what? If we removed all speculative discussion from this site it would be a mighty boring place. I would go so far as to say that the intent of this board is to foster and encourage speculative discussion. I don't see what's wrong with that. Again it feels like you are looking at this from the position of an NHL executive rather than a fan blogger. I have no such illusions about myself or the posts I make. I watch the Oilers for fun. For entertainment. So when I see posters declaring for example 'oh we were bound to lose the Eberle trade no matter what' or 'Eberle wouldn't be scoring at this rate in Edmonton' as if these were facts that we must all agree to, I must confess that I get a little irritated. Seems like speculation only works one way for those folks. I speculate it to be so, therefore it is fact.
Absolutely agree with this. I don't subscribe to @Soundwave posts on this topic at all. Firing Chiarelli now doesn't accomplish much. I say that knowing full well that the 'emotional' fan in me has already called for him to be fired immediately at least twice this season
No doubt. The former Oilers were one dimensional and soft. I got so sick of this team getting sand kicked in their faces while pretend tough guys like Ference stood around at the bus stop. One thing I wholeheartedly applaud Chiarelli for is the way he changed this club into one that has multiple guys who are sand kickers rather than receivers. Its a massive improvement that he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
Meh. I'm less convinced than you seem to be about Nicholson's brilliance. Managing Team Canada isn't nearly the same thing as running an NHL franchise. The best players in the nation line up begging you to pick them to play for free on Team Canada. We also have the best crop to pick from. Gotta be a lot smarter to make it in the NHL.
I don't blame Chiarelli at all for Yakupov. I never liked the player and I would have been happy to be rid of him for nothing which is pretty much what we ended up getting. Schultz is a different matter. Many fans on this site said he 'quit' and littered the site with unfair and abusive posts. I still believe he was much more valuable than a third round pick. Chiarelli did the team no favors with this move at all. We could sure use Justin Schultz this season. Or last for that matter.
Not supposed to talk about this anymore. Dislike the trade in spite of the fact that I recognize Adam Larsson to be a useful player.
I think my feelings on this trade are well known on the board. I'll just address one thing.
Those 'what ifs' cut both ways remember.
Thanks for recognizing its a truly awful trade. We had some posters, well mostly one, on this site who insisted for months that it was a great trade. They'd seen Reinhart 'real good' with the Oil Kings don't you know. Those posters are awful quiet these days. Seriously though, this is the kind of trade that should get people fired. A first and a second round pick for a guy who flushes out of the league less than a year later? A guy who gets waived by an expansion team? Its tough to see how pointing out that the Oilers 'might' not have picked Barzal (those old what ifs again) is any kind of comfort. Just brutal asset management.
Yeah I agree. Its tough to dialogue with a poster who thinks we have $33 million in cap space. I've sensed your frustration with this point in particular. I think there is an onus on us as fans to be as reasonably well informed about the workings of the cap as we can be.
I'm still not convinced that Chiarelli is doing a great job of managing the cap. Like I said above, he was put in a bad spot by some circumstances, but he contributed as well. Lucic is an overpay. Love the guy but the deal is too long. Russel is an overpay. He can play on my team any day, but again too long. Draisaitl is an overpay. Even shaving a half million or a year off each of those deals makes the team a lot better off. I never get the sense that Chiarelli is negotiating from a position of strength. I mean as you say, we aren't privy, but really four years for Russel and a NMC? 8.5 for Draisaitl. Seven years for Lucic? C'mon.
Yes, some aspects have been out of Chiarelli's control. I never accept illness or injury as an excuse. Sorry all NHL teams deal with those factors. How would you like to be a Canucks fan this morning? The Klefbom regression was big, but Nurse stepped up large. For me the biggest thing was the belief Chiarelli obviously had in Caggiula. It calls into question for me his ability to judge a young player. Secondary to that was his belief in Benning. I still see a useful player in Slepyshev, as Chiarelli obviously did, and we both may be proven wrong there. Did Chiarelli believe in Brossoit? I think its clear he did and that bet has also come back to bite him. So on the internal progression front Chiarelli is batting 1/4. 2/5 if you want to give him Khaira. Although I tend to agree with @StevenF1919 who said Chiarelli was counting on Caggiula, Strome and Slepyshev, not Khaira. I think Khaira has been found money for the team this season.
I never got to your other list, but damn I'm as tired of posting as you probably are of reading. I may swing back to it but either way I appreciate the dialogue. Cheers.
Thx and I understand all your points and do not disagree with many of them. Seeing things from both sides of a coin is always a good thing.
I will say with respect to Bob Nicholson and Hockey Canada, and should have expanded on this earlier because I knew it would come back as being oretty easy to pick Team Canada, that Hockey Canada is far far more than picking Canada’s Olympic and World Cup teams.
Hockey Canada sets and oversees the bar for player development from Initiation on up for all ages and men’s and women’s programs. I could get into a ton of detail here but suffice to say the job Nicholson had is far more complex than most people realize and requires a very long term plan. Nobody has been more successful than he in any hockey organization on the planet.
We are very lucky to have him. I’ve heard rumblings he’s leaving to pursue the soon to be vacant IIHF Presidency and I hope to hell those rumours are false.
I don’t trust the former arrogant regime of Lowe MacTavish Green and Howson and fear (there’s that fear word again LOL-oh us fans....) that if he moves on we are stuck with the architects of the DoD yet again running the show.
Anyway great points made and an enjoyable read.
- Sep 27, 2017
- 3,634
- 2,906
Not much to respond to. Just cause someone can type a 5000 word essay doesn't mean theres any substance to it
McNuge
Registered User
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