#FIRECHIA

[oXo Cube]

Not much to respond to. Just cause someone can type a 5000 word essay doesn't mean theres any substance to it

When someone puts in what is clearly hours worth of effort into an argument and you respond with 'lolwalloftext' it's pretty clear which of the two positions has no substance.

If what he wrote(and I disagree with large sections of the post) is baseless then attack and refute it or don't bother posting at all. Responses like yours are the biggest reason by far this board has lost so many quality posters.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

I will also say I am not drinking the Chiarelli kool-aid, a Chiarelli supporter or a Chiarelli Cheerleader. I merely have said multiple times, that as I get the fans frustration, I also get why Chiarelli did what he did and understand his rationale, or his long term plan of building a sustainable playoff team that can compete for the Stanley Cup under the constraints of the Salary Cap.

I'll reply to this entire diatribe when I have a moment, but for now let me just say this:

No. Absolutely not. No way. You do not get to play this game.

How on earth do you expect anyone to believe you don't have a dog in this fight when you follow up this preamble with a full-throated, novel-length defense of Peter Chiarelli? I don't even think the man himself would care enough to write such a lengthy missive about his own career. It's clear you have a stance on this issue, even if you refuse to admit it.

I mean, sure- I get why you feel you have to do this. Going back to what I said yesterday, it's clear you desire to be some sort of Schroedinger's Fan who holds every position at once so as to never be wrong and never fall on the wrong side of management. But come the **** on. Have some pride.

I'm more than happy to accept- if in a tongue-in-cheek manner- criticisms of my arguments that try and put me in a box. Be it "Chia Hater" or detractor, I understand the need to quickly and succinctly identify what side of the fence I sit on.

What I don't try and do- because it would be cowardly and disingenuous- is ride that fence so hard I cough up splinters. Right or wrong, I own up to my opinions.

That you have to give a disclaimer like this before even saying anything makes it clear you don't have the same prerogative, and this defeats your own series of arguments better than anyone else could.

 

[Little Fury]

I'd buy the whole "Chia just needs time! Specifically, one more year than he's had so far because of reasons!" more or at all if he had come into a team that was completely bereft of assets and crushed under bad contracts. But that wasn't the case at all. The team he inherited had some holes and a couple of bad deals, but he had a boatload of assets to work with and rather than identify a core and build around it, he decided to rebuild it in his own image of what it takes to be successful in the NHL in 2010.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I'd buy the whole "Chia just needs time! Specifically, one more year than he's had so far because of reasons!"

plenty of people have come up with reasons as to why Chiarelli's deserves another summer to fix the team citing the poor goaltending, poor defensive play from key players (Klefbom) and extremely poor special teams

more or at all if he had come into a team that was completely bereft of assets and crushed under bad contracts. But that wasn't the case at all. The team he inherited had some holes and a couple of bad deals, but he had a boatload of assets to work with

but they were a woefully unbalanced roster with a losing culture...
yes, the Oilers had a ton of shiny valuable prospects, but they rarely won games...Chiarelli identified needing to build the goaltending and defense...and get bigger and harder on the puck

and rather than identify a core and build around it,

so signing McDaivd and Drai to 8-year contracts, Klefbom signing long-term, having Larsson and Talbot under contract... isn't identifying a core?

he decided to rebuild it in his own image of what it takes to be successful in the NHL in 2010.

and 2016-17

 

[Little Fury]

plenty of people have come up with reasons as to why Chiarelli's deserves another summer to fix the team citing the poor goaltending, poor defensive play from key players (Klefbom) and extremely poor special teams

2/3 years out of the playoffs is the only thing that matters. No reason to keep throwing good money after bad.

but they were a woefully unbalanced roster with a losing culture...

"Losing culture" is nonsense.

yes, the Oilers had a ton of shiny valuable prospects, but they rarely won games...Chiarelli identified needing to build the goaltending and defense...and get bigger and harder on the puck

So did everyone else and their dog. The issue is how he went about trying to address it.

so signing McDaivd and Drai to 8-year contracts, Klefbom signing long-term, having Larsson and Talbot under contract... isn't identifying a core?

Larsson was under contract when he was brought in, Klefbom was mostly Mac T's work and any idiot would look at locking up McDavid to max term and overpay mightily for Draisaitl.

Show me a time Chia did an outside the box move that wasn't a solid L.

and 2016-17

Did I miss something or didn't that team only win one round playoff round of the one season he's made the playoffs with Connor effing McDavid on the cheap?

 

[NeverForget06]

It's funny that people don't give credit to Chia for Larsson's contract as though that wasn't a factor in the trade or something.

 

[belair]

I'd buy the whole "Chia just needs time! Specifically, one more year than he's had so far because of reasons!" more or at all if he had come into a team that was completely bereft of assets and crushed under bad contracts. But that wasn't the case at all. The team he inherited had some holes and a couple of bad deals, but he had a boatload of assets to work with and rather than identify a core and build around it, he decided to rebuild it in his own image of what it takes to be successful in the NHL in 2010.

The 'assets' were also the bad contracts. MacT's untouchable 'core'. The moment we drafted Connor McDavid that old rebuild went right out the window. It had to because in no version of reality were we going to fit all of that offense under the salary cap in three short years while addressing the defense, which was among the league's worst at the time of the McDavid draft. We were also a team of pushovers that were consistently victimized by its divisional opponents. Soft-ass overpaid losers.

We're just now also seeing the effects of the piss poor drafting. The Bakersfield Condors' best forward prospect with NHL upside this season? Take your pick: Joey Legs or Ty Rattie. MacT's defemsemen are on their way out as well. How's Dillon Simpson trending? The prospect cabinet was scorched Earth.

Getting that mess settled was a job and a half.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The 'assets' were also the bad contracts. MacT's untouchable 'core'. The moment we drafted Connor McDavid that old rebuild went right out the window. It had to because in no version of reality were we going to fit all of that offense under the salary cap in three short years while addressing the defense, which was among the league's worst at the time of the McDavid draft. We were also a team of pushovers that were consistently victimized by its divisional opponents. Soft-ass overpaid losers.

We're just now also seeing the effects of the piss poor drafting. The Bakersfield Condors' best forward prospect with NHL upside this season? Take your pick: Joey Legs or Ty Rattie. MacT's defemsemen are on their way out as well. How's Dillon Simpson trending? The prospect cabinet was scorched Earth.

Getting that mess settled was a job and a half.

The problem is that he turned a bunch of decent players into Larsson and Strome. The old core wasn't amazing by any means but they still had a few good players.

And let's not proclaim Chia's drafting to be good just yet. No evidence of that whatsoever.

 

[Little Fury]

The 'assets' were also the bad contracts. MacT's untouchable 'core'.

LMAO at thinking Hall or Eberle were bad contracts, especially since he replaced the former with a worse deal for a worse player. That dog doesn't hunt.

The moment we drafted Connor McDavid that old rebuild went right out the window. It had to because in no version of reality were we going to fit all of that offense under the salary cap in three short years while addressing the defense, which was among the league's worst at the time of the McDavid draft. We were also a team of pushovers that were consistently victimized by its divisional opponents. Soft-ass overpaid losers.

This is false, but beside the point to some extent.

The issue I have is the idea that Chia should be hailed for recognizing needs that were obvious to any casual observer. The issue was and is how he went about trying to fill them.

We're just now also seeing the effects of the piss poor drafting. The Bakersfield Condors' best forward prospect with NHL upside this season? Take your pick: Joey Legs or Ty Rattie. MacT's defemsemen are on their way out as well. How's Dillon Simpson trending? The prospect cabinet was scorched Earth.

Getting that mess settled was a job and a half.

Yeah, it's too bad some dunderhead traded away two blue chip picks that first year, hey?

 

[belair]

The problem is that he turned a bunch of decent players into Larsson and Strome. The old core wasn't amazing by any means but they still had a few good players.

And let's not proclaim Chia's drafting to be good just yet. No evidence of that whatsoever.

But you're also looking at the players apart from their salary constraints. Each of those individual deals regarding those 'decent players' had the team's cap needs in mind.

Also, I haven't championed his drafting at all. The entire post doesn't even mention Chiarelli. It describes the job he was walking into because people have the tendency of looking at McDavid, Draisaitl, Nuge, Eberle, Hall, Yakupov and Schultz and say 'Wow'. Unfortunately the job is to build a competitive, financially solvent TEAM.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

2/3 years out of the playoffs is the only thing that matters. No reason to keep throwing good money after bad.

so firing the GM is the answer? disagree
or we could end up like the Panthers

"Losing culture" is nonsense.

disagree but please explain

So did everyone else and their dog. The issue is how he went about trying to address it

by trading from a position of strength (1-dimensional wingers) and addressing a weakness (defensive d-men...specifically RHD)

Larsson was under contract when he was brought in, Klefbom was mostly Mac T's work and any idiot would look at locking up McDavid to max term and overpay mightily for Draisaitl.

Show me a time Chia did an outside the box move that wasn't a solid L.

Larsson's contract status absolutely factored into the trade

Did I miss something or didn't that team only win one round playoff round of the one season he's made the playoffs with Connor effing McDavid on the cheap?

oh we did something we haven't done in a decade by winning a round?
or how about doing something the Oilers haven't done in a quarter century...having home-ice advantage

pfft, that means nothing

 

[MoneyGuy]

disagree but please explain

I also disagree that losing culture is nonsense.

 

[Little Fury]

so firing the GM is the answer? disagree

I don't see any reason why we should be particularly attached to these guys if they aren't delivering results. He's going to get a pass this season, but unless he makes soem actual moves to improve the team this offseason and the team comes out like a house on fire next year, he should be on thin ice.

disagree but please explain

"Losing culture" is a lazy narrative that ignores actual on-ice reasons for the lack of success the team had.

by trading from a position of strength (1-dimensional wingers) and addressing a weakness (defensive d-men...specifically RHD)

And getting hosed in the process.

Larsson's contract status absolutely factored into the trade

At least the underwhelming d-core we have is cheap, I'll say that much.

oh we did something we haven't done in a decade by winning a round?
or how about doing something the Oilers haven't done in a quarter century...having home-ice advantage

pfft, that means nothing

Making the playoffs with the best player in the world in a league where 50% of teams make it isn't some major coup. But if he gets credit for that, he gets the blame for this year, fair?

 

[belair]

LMAO at thinking Hall or Eberle were bad contracts, especially since he replaced the former with a worse deal for a worse player. That dog doesn't hunt.

We added Adam Larsson on a very solid deal long-term--which ultimately stabilized the defense last season and filled Hall's roster spot with Lucic, who has covered a significant amount of Hall's production to date. Lucic also isn't a giant p****. That deal all depends on which perspective you choose to view it in.

The Eberle 'is on a good contract' POV is new, I must say. Go back in time one year and you'd get laughed out of the thread. But simply put, he's a winger who cheats for offense and hadn't produced at a top line rate in Edmonton for several seasons. Next season, when Connor McDavid is making $12.5m, we couldn't afford to have multiple wingers pulling in $6m while trying to keep the rest of the team competitive. The player was a luxury--and his value was diminishing.

Yeah, it's too bad some dunderhead traded away two blue chip picks that first year, hey?

What's done is done. It was a bad bet that likely had much of the legwork done prior. The whispers of us eyeing Evgeni Svechnikov makes it easier to swallow though.

 

[Killion]

Gang... some civility here please.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I don't see any reason why we should be particularly attached to these guys if they aren't delivering results. He's going to get a pass this season, but unless he makes soem actual moves to improve the team this offseason and the team comes out like a house on fire next year, he should be on thin ice.

I agree the rope should and will be shorter next year
He needs to have a HUGE summer if this team continues in the bottom 5

"Losing culture" is a lazy narrative that ignores actual on-ice reasons for the lack of success the team had.

So the the narrative “just have good players” which doesn’t effectively say anything
This team had a collection of talent that should have won more games, yet they could never get it done

And getting hosed in the process.

But he’s addressing a massive need from a position of strength
To me, Larsson’s value is just as important to the Oilers and Hall’s value on the Devils

At least the underwhelming d-core we have is cheap, I'll say that much.

How can you say it’s underwhelming when we haven’t seen it fully healthy yet?

Making the playoffs with the best player in the world in a league where 50% of teams make it isn't some major coup. But if he gets credit for that, he gets the blame for this year, fair?

He is getting blamed for this year and he should
But I’m not firing him yet

 

[Soundwave]

I don't see any reason why we should be particularly attached to these guys if they aren't delivering results. He's going to get a pass this season, but unless he makes soem actual moves to improve the team this offseason and the team comes out like a house on fire next year, he should be on thin ice.



"Losing culture" is a lazy narrative that ignores actual on-ice reasons for the lack of success the team had.



And getting hosed in the process.



At least the underwhelming d-core we have is cheap, I'll say that much.



Making the playoffs with the best player in the world in a league where 50% of teams make it isn't some major coup. But if he gets credit for that, he gets the blame for this year, fair?

Yup spot on with your points.

I don't even get the "OMG! Are you suggesting *gasp!* that the GM be fired?!"

Uh ... yeah? What's the big deal? People get fired every year in this league for poor results. Every year. Hell it happens in regular jobs too ... if I got work at a McDonalds and screw up 2/3 orders I will probably get fired.

If they don't make the playoffs this year, Chiarelli's three year results here are mediocre.

And the whole "we could be like Florida" is just a strawman. The new GM had a bunch of off-ice politics and was obsessed with analytics and wanted a different direction on that basis. Beyond that Gallant had the team over .500 every year for three years, Chiarelli/McLellan are 1/3 so far.

Pittsburgh and Chicago made snap firings of key people and they have gone on to massive success, Calgary fired Feaster and made the playoffs again the following year.

 

[Aerchon]

Without responding to anyone in particular.

The Oilers, in general, have played far better than their record suggests. I have heard that from many fan bases and pundits around the league either before or after they play us. The last 5 games the Oilers have played legit good to great hockey and "should" have got more points, but there are factors in games that are out of control of the team, luck, injuries, bad goaltending performances, and refereeing for example.

Winning is of course what matters most but I think people have short selective memories on how bad the teams in the decade of darkness were in comparison to this team. Or how our current roster (when healthy) stacks up against the rest of the league. I know I didn't come out of many losses during that decade of darkness thinking "hmmm, the Oilers really should have won that one" on paper or effort. Not many games during that decade where we outshot, out chanced, and out played our opponents lost and could legitimately feel good about the level of hockey our team played. Most were straight up embarrassing losses where shame was felt from top to bottom.

The team we have right now is far far far better than the ones we have had for a long long time AND those that think just because we have McDavid in our line up that we should be winning cups/making the playoffs easily just don't understand how hockey works in todays NHL with the cap, systems, and parity.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The question I have for the pro-Chia crowd is simple... What do you think happens next year with far less cap space?

 

[Soundwave]

Without responding to anyone in particular.

The Oilers, in general, have played far better than their record suggests. I have heard that from many fan bases and pundits around the league either before or after they play us. The last 5 games the Oilers have played legit good to great hockey and "should" have got more points, but there are factors in games that are out of control of the team, luck, injuries, bad goaltending performances, and refereeing for example.

Winning is of course what matters most but I think people have short selective memories on how bad the teams in the decade of darkness were in comparison to this team. Or how our current roster (when healthy) stacks up against the rest of the league. I know I didn't come out of many losses during that decade of darkness thinking "hmmm, the Oilers really should have won that one" on paper or effort. Not many games during that decade where we outshot, out chanced, and out played our opponents lost and could legitimately feel good about the level of hockey our team played. Most were straight up embarrassing losses where shame was felt from top to bottom.

The team we have right now is far far far better than the ones we have had for a long long time AND those that think just because we have McDavid in our line up that we should be winning cups/making the playoffs easily just don't understand how hockey works in todays NHL with the cap, systems, and parity.

I'm sorry but I'm not willing to lower my expectations any further.

If the Flames can make 2/3 years with Johnny Gaudreau and zero top 3 picks (whereas the Oilers have had 5 of them, including 4 no.1 overalls), if the Leafs can immediately go 2/2 after getting Matthews, if the Devils might be 1/2 with Taylor Hall as their best player ...

I am not giving this franchise a pass again. We deserve at bare minimum Calgary-quality results infact that is a ridiculously low bar as they are a mediocre franchise themselves. I'm not even asking for freaking Chicago/Pittsburgh or even Anaheim/San Jose/Washington tier results here.

How much lower can we lower the bar? Is being a Colorado/Buffalo tier franchise going to be acceptable? Where exactly is the line?

Because having worse results than Calgary results when they had a fraction of the blue chip assets to start their "rebuild" with is apparently acceptable now. I'm not accepting it. That doesn't sit right with me, the GM needs to be held accountable after three years if that is the net result.

We deserve better than this garbage. Lets stop giving mediocrity a pass, it didn't work for us the last 10 years, and I don't see it having any good results here. Chiarelli is nothing special, any number of GMs could have 1/3 playoff appearances to show for themselves with McDavid, Draisaitl, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Klefbom, Nurse, Schultz + like $15 million in open cap room + another 1st overall with Barzal just sitting there to start with and many GMs could have done better than 1/3.

 

[belair]

The question I have for the pro-Chia crowd is simple... What do you think happens next year with far less cap space?

I have yet to look that far ahead. This season isn't half done yet. A healthy roster stringing some wins together gains some ground in the Pacific. There's a small possibility we may still be marginal buyers this season.

That being said, I think filling the holes of Letestu and Maroon with younger, cheaper players and filling out the remainder of the roster with veteran fill-ins is probably the idea.

 

[Aerchon]

I'm sorry but I'm not willing to lower my expectations any further.

If the Flames can make 2/3 years with Johnny Gaudreau and zero top 3 picks (whereas the Oilers have had 5 of them, including 4 no.1 overalls), if the Leafs can immediately go 2/2 after getting Matthews, if the Devils might be 1/2 with Taylor Hall as their best player ...

I am not giving this franchise a pass again. We deserve at bare minimum Calgary-quality results infact that is a ridiculously low bar as they are a mediocre franchise themselves. I'm not even asking for freaking Chicago/Pittsburgh or even Anaheim/San Jose/Washington tier results here.

How much lower can we lower the bar? Is being a Colorado/Buffalo tier franchise going to be acceptable? Where exactly is the line?

Because having worse results than Calgary results when they had a fraction of the blue chip assets to start their "rebuild" with is apparently acceptable now. I'm not accepting it. That doesn't sit right with me, the GM needs to be held accountable after three years if that is the net result.

We deserve better than this garbage. Lets stop giving mediocrity a pass, it didn't work for us the last 10 years, and I don't see it having any good results here. Chiarelli is nothing special, any number of GMs could have 1/3 playoff appearances to show for themselves with McDavid, Draisaitl, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Klefbom, Nurse, Schultz + like $15 million in open cap room + another 1st overall with Barzal just sitting there to start with and many GMs could have done better than 1/3.

Hockey just doesn't work that way. Complain all you want and say it's unacceptable but the Oilers have better than average coaching, players, GM, management... by most accounts.

I agree that we "should" be better than Calgary at least and I hope that we somehow still beat them in the standings this year as unlikely as that may be.

However, It's great to complain but really what GM, that is available, is actually guaranteed to be better than Chiarelli? Answer, none. How many are even likely to be better than Chiarelli? Answer very very few and none that I can think of.

Who do you think should be the Oilers GM that will lead them to glory?

Random FYI: Also thought I would drop the tidbit that the Oilers are on pace to only score 9 less goals than last year despite its terrible start... No real relevance but thought I would toss that in there for fun.

 

[Little Fury]

We added Adam Larsson on a very solid deal long-term--which ultimately stabilized the defense last season and filled Hall's roster spot with Lucic, who has covered a significant amount of Hall's production to date. Lucic also isn't a giant p****. That deal all depends on which perspective you choose to view it in.

See, it's hard to think you're arguing in good faith when you start from "it was a bad contract" to "well, the deals were good" (while ignoring the obvious fact that Lucic's contract is much worse than Hall's.)

The Eberle 'is on a good contract' POV is new, I must say. Go back in time one year and you'd get laughed out of the thread. But simply put, he's a winger who cheats for offense and hadn't produced at a top line rate in Edmonton for several seasons. Next season, when Connor McDavid is making $12.5m, we couldn't afford to have multiple wingers pulling in $6m while trying to keep the rest of the team competitive. The player was a luxury--and his value was diminishing.

$6M for a 50+ point winger is pretty much market value these days, even if it wasn't at the time it was signed. Either way, total exaggeration to call that a bad deal.

What's done is done. It was a bad bet that likely had much of the legwork done prior. The whispers of us eyeing Evgeni Svechnikov makes it easier to swallow though

That what catastrophically stupid decision saved us from making a different stupid decision is an..interesting take.

 

[belair]

Personally, I think people give the GM far too much credit in the effect he makes to the on-ice product. The Oilers are where they are in the standings today because of poor execution by the players on this team, not because they miss Jordan Eberle. I wouldn't even consider myself 'pro-Chiarelli', but I'm certainly willing to see his decisions play out. The one thing he does hold over his predecessors though is his willingness to make the difficult trade, even if it's likely not going to be the most well-received.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Personally, I think people give the GM far too much credit in the effect he makes to the on-ice product. The Oilers are where they are in the standings today because of poor execution by the players on this team, not because they miss Jordan Eberle. I wouldn't even consider myself 'pro-Chiarelli', but I'm certainly willing to see his decisions play out. The one thing he does hold over his predecessors though is his willingness to make the difficult trade, even if it's likely not going to be the most well-received.

I see lots of comments about how the "goaltending sucks" this year then remind myself that it was the GM who put them on the ice. Talbot's one thing, but it should've been apparent very early that LB is not an NHL capable backup and one should've been brought in just in case Talbot struggled.

And in the event that he does again the Oilers are f***ed.