#FIRECHIA

[nabob]

He clearly meant the season after mcdavid was injured...

He clearly was talking about all three seasons that McDavid has been an Oiler. It's plain as day in the post I quoted.

 

[shoop]

He clearly was talking about all three seasons that McDavid has been an Oiler. It's plain as day in the post I quoted.

Yes indeed. That's the whole problem with the missing playoffs two out of three seasons with McDavid. He only played half of one of those seasons. The problem with the Chia haters is they can't come up with a nuanced analysis. The world is black and white to them.

That's what feeds the missed 2/3 playoffs, Hall trade was an absolute loss. They ignore how poorly this "talented core" performed for a long time. Sadly that doesn't fit with their narrative so they point to what they see as obvious points when those points don't hold up under close scrutiny.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He clearly was talking about all three seasons that McDavid has been an Oiler. It's plain as day in the post I quoted.

Its clear only to you because you are conflating separate posts into one. You like to argue, I get that, really I do.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yes indeed. That's the whole problem with the missing playoffs two out of three seasons with McDavid. He only played half of one of those seasons. The problem with the Chia haters is they can't come up with a nuanced analysis. The world is black and white to them.

That's what feeds the missed 2/3 playoffs, Hall trade was an absolute loss. They ignore how poorly this "talented core" performed for a long time. Sadly that doesn't fit with their narrative so they point to what they see as obvious points when those points don't hold up under close scrutiny.

It is fair to mention this. I get that. But its unacceptable for the Oilers to have missed the playoffs by a wide margin THIS season. Which is obviously what is causing the concern, magnified by viewing how much of a difference Hall was able to make in Jersey.

Have to say though is in your comments of "how poor the core is" you are stretching as well. A core of McD, Hall, Drai, Nuge, Eberle, Nurse, Klef, was most definitely something to work with and that a lot of GM's would have been able to build around. That's even a damn good core that just needed some time. McD changed everything. The advent of Drai as a star player also changed the makeup of this team. Few clubs have 3 forwards as good as McD, Drai, Hall. That alone would have been a juggernaut.

As Vegas has shown you can build a team without any star D in the lineup. You just have to know who to pick, how to supplement that D in team and system play and utilizing levels of D. A much better strategy found in Vegas that was available.

 

[nabob]

Its clear only to you because you are conflating separate posts into one. You like to argue, I get that, really I do.

Here I will quote it again for you. This is the only post of yours I have quoted. Maybe you are the one confused as you can't seem to tell the difference between 2 and 3. Please explain how you are only talking about the two seasons of which McDavid has been healthy. Looks pretty clear that you are judging Chia based off the season where McDavid was injured, or else you would have said 1/2. That 3 in there means you were referring to all 3 seasons.

With an in prime McD and Draisaitl in tow, yes. That expectation should be a minimum especially after failing to reach the playoffs 2/3 times while gifted with the best player on the planet. Chia inherited huge assets in addition to these in a lineup that just needed some time. But he trades the best players we had for middling return.

Or are you still going to try to insist you were only talking about two seasons.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The good news is, Oiler fans are more often wrong then right on this site.

Just like they were wrong about the last few coaches and GMs...

 

[shoop]

It is fair to mention this. I get that. But its unacceptable for the Oilers to have missed the playoffs by a wide margin THIS season. Which is obviously what is causing the concern, magnified by viewing how much of a difference Hall was able to make in Jersey.

The Oilers top 3 defencemen missed a full season between them. I suspect had it not been for the injuries to the defence core overall that all three of Klefa, Larsson and Sekera would have all individually missed more time.

Have to say though is in your comments of "how poor the core is" you are stretching as well. A core of McD, Hall, Drai, Nuge, Eberle, Nurse, Klef, was most definitely something to work with and that a lot of GM's would have been able to build around.

That's not exactly what I said. The defencemen in the core you mention are a below league average second pairing or a 4/5 on a decent team. Either people accept their was a chemistry component to the Hall trade or they don't. Hall didn't click with McDavid on the ice. Hall struggles to break 70 points on the Oilers second line, never mind 90. That's assuming he had the epiphany here that he did in New Jersey.

As Vegas has shown you can build a team without any star D in the lineup. You just have to know who to pick, how to supplement that D in team and system play and utilizing levels of D. A much better strategy found in Vegas that was available.

Eff Vegas. Talk about being gift MAF. Many of your fellow Chia haters have disdain for Chia's cup win because he was gifted a talented core and a 30-something goalie played out of his mind. Vegas was gifted favourable draft rules and a 30-something goaling playing out of his minds.

 

[syz]

Vegas's draft rules were pretty bad but teams decided to trade them a bunch of extra shit for no reason.

If they'd just drafted an exposed player from every team they'd be missing most of the players who are carrying them.

 

[belair]

Just like they were wrong about the last few coaches and GMs...

I think the majority had caught on by MacTavish that the team had no idea what they were doing. Go back to the MacTavish hiring thread and there wasn't a whole lot of happy campers. The Oilers moves had gotten obvious by that point as well.

 

[belair]

Vegas's draft rules were pretty bad but teams decided to trade them a bunch of extra **** for no reason.

If they'd just drafted an exposed player from every team they'd be missing most of the players who are carrying them.

I wouldn't say no reason. They benefited from a team willing to alleviate them of cap commitments. If owners and GMs can learn anything from the GKs season, it's that you can find quality talent on the cheap just by willing to take on unwanted contracts. Vegas got free picks and prospects.

 

[syz]

I wouldn't say no reason. They benefited from a team willing to alleviate them of cap commitments. If owners and GMs can learn anything from the GKs season, it's that you can find quality talent on the cheap just by willing to take on unwanted contracts. Vegas got free picks and prospects.

I mean, in terms of Vegas's best players, the "reason" was that the other teams wanted to pay extra in order to protect other, worse players instead.

Please don't claim our Big Mac, we'll give you two steaks instead.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I think the majority had caught on by MacTavish that the team had no idea what they were doing. Go back to the MacTavish hiring thread and there wasn't a whole lot of happy campers. The Oilers moves had gotten obvious by that point as well.

The majority of fans caught on long before that. Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same. Nobody deserves to keep their job at this point. But I am looking forward to the eventual hiring of Anderson.

 

[McGoMcD]

You're basically arguing my point for me. The optics on the trade can change from year to year, which is exactly why you can't judge this deal on a year-to-year basis. Oilers had a lot of things go against them last year. Regardless of Hall being here or not, Oilers would probably have been bad.

.

No, I am not arguing your point one bit. We totally are not making the same point. I am saying that right now the trade looks bad, and sure could change next year, but the odds are very low. I am saying it is possible, you are saying it will happen. The odds the optics of this trade change next year are like 1%. Reality is they never really changed that much. It went from horrible deal, to maybe a deal I can stomach is we win, to a atrocious deal. The idea that next year it will again be good, thats not even on the table, the odds are so low.

At this point it seems clear, it is a horrible deal, and it always will be. Sure last year it seemed ok for a bit.

 

[MaxR11]

Have to say though is in your comments of "how poor the core is" you are stretching as well. A core of McD, Hall, Drai, Nuge, Eberle, Nurse, Klef, was most definitely something to work with and that a lot of GM's would have been able to build around. That's even a damn good core that just needed some time. McD changed everything. The advent of Drai as a star player also changed the makeup of this team. Few clubs have 3 forwards as good as McD, Drai, Hall. That alone would have been a juggernaut.

.

foolish assumption. based on what we saw for MANY years, hall, ebs, nuge were not a good set of players to build around. nurse, klef and drai still up in the air. don't get me wrong i used to love nuge and still like him but man do people overrate our talent. it's also like saying when we had gags, cogs nilsson, hemsky etc etc that we were stacked with talent. pffft.

i get people still pining over losing ebs and his goal production but man, he is not a great player or even a player that will shift your team more towards the likelihood of winning. people get confused by skill and ability to score goals. it doesn't always translate to being a net positive impact overall fpr the team. hall and ebs here in edmonton were definitely a net negative impact. esp hall.

i promise you if we go back in time and oust hall right off the bat (2010) and replace him with a solid veteran player with some leadership abilities who was "less talented" the oil would have been a better team.

 

[McGoMcD]

foolish assumption. based on what we saw for MANY years, hall, ebs, nuge were not a good set of players to build around. nurse, klef and drai still up in the air. don't get me wrong i used to love nuge and still like him but man do people overrate our talent. it's also like saying when we had gags, cogs nilsson, hemsky etc etc that we were stacked with talent. pffft.

i get people still pining over losing ebs and his goal production but man, he is not a great player or even a player that will shift your team more towards the likelihood of winning. people get confused by skill and ability to score goals. it doesn't always translate to being a net positive impact overall fpr the team. hall and ebs here in edmonton were definitely a net negative impact. esp hall.

i promise you if we go back in time and oust hall right off the bat (2010) and replace him with a solid veteran player with some leadership abilities who was "less talented" the oil would have been a better team.

Sigh, here is the tragedy. The pure heart drenching tragedy. So here we go, the oil suck for 10 years, forever. but they build up a core of McD, Hall, Nuge, Ebs, Nurse, Klef, Drai.... An amazing core that would win cups no doubt, perhaps be a better dynasty that the Hawks or Pens. In comes Chia...... ohhh, I want team toughness and chemistry, which I can't actually find. Lets trade Hall for a slow, ok, mid range D... Now lets trade Ebs for beans.... also all out picks, gone for Rienhart.

We will never get how good that core could have been together. I think finally next year we will get just a bit as Nuge and McD will light it up, but never get what could have been if idiot Chia doesn't come along.

It really is the ultimate tradegy, suck forever, save up talent, Chia comes in a sends of assets like they were a free cheese platter.

 

[shoop]

Sigh, here is the tragedy. The pure heart drenching tragedy. So here we go, the oil suck for 10 years, forever. but they build up a core of McD, Hall, Nuge, Ebs, Nurse, Klef, Drai.... An amazing core that would win cups no doubt, perhaps be a better dynasty that the Hawks or Pens. In comes Chia...... ohhh, I want team toughness and chemistry, which I can't actually find. Lets trade Hall for a slow, ok, mid range D... Now lets trade Ebs for beans.... also all out picks, gone for Rienhart.

Wow. That's such an incredible overstatement of how good that 'core' was as a group. Win cups no doubt?

 

[Drivesaitl]

The Oilers top 3 defencemen missed a full season between them. I suspect had it not been for the injuries to the defence core overall that all three of Klefa, Larsson and Sekera would have all individually missed more time.



That's not exactly what I said. The defencemen in the core you mention are a below league average second pairing or a 4/5 on a decent team. Either people accept their was a chemistry component to the Hall trade or they don't. Hall didn't click with McDavid on the ice. Hall struggles to break 70 points on the Oilers second line, never mind 90. That's assuming he had the epiphany here that he did in New Jersey.





Eff Vegas. Talk about being gift MAF. Many of your fellow Chia haters have disdain for Chia's cup win because he was gifted a talented core and a 30-something goalie played out of his mind. Vegas was gifted favourable draft rules and a 30-something goaling playing out of his minds.

1) I don't know how you can look at D injuries on this club without acknowledging that Klef is often out of the lineup/and/or not 100% due to many ailments. I wouldn't be betting the bank that this player is of stalwart ironman health at any point in his career. Also Sekera injury was known. You can't just add that up as a misfortune. Chia knew one of his top 4 D would be out half the season and failed to address that adequately.

2) Chemistry component? Nah, sorry, that's off the charts. I don't accept that Hall was traded for chemistry issues or that he didn't click with McD. That's pure fiction.

3) Vegas is critical to the overview because it confirms what a lot of us already recognized. That the cost of providing an effective D and accruing reasonable D was not a Taylor Hall. Vegas has a solid enough looking D platoon without giving up the ranch to get it. These were available guys. These were all D who were considered not good enough to protect.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

1) I don't know how you can look at D injuries on this club without acknowledging that Klef is often out of the lineup/and/or not 100% due to many ailments. I wouldn't be betting the bank that this player is of stalwart ironman health at any point in his career. Also Sekera injury was known. You can't just add that up as a misfortune. Chia knew one of his top 4 D would be out half the season and failed to address that adequately.

2) Chemistry component? Nah, sorry, that's off the charts. I don't accept that Hall was traded for chemistry issues or that he didn't click with McD. That's pure fiction.

3) Vegas is critical to the overview because it confirms what a lot of us already recognized. That the cost of providing an effective D and accruing reasonable D was not a Taylor Hall. Vegas has a solid enough looking D platoon without giving up the ranch to get it. These were available guys. These were all D who were considered not good enough to protect.

Griffin Reinhart played a game in the playoffs for us last year. Think there’s any chance Vegas even looks st him?

 

[shoop]

1) I don't know how you can look at D injuries on this club without acknowledging that Klef is often out of the lineup/and/or not 100% due to many ailments. I wouldn't be betting the bank that this player is of stalwart ironman health at any point in his career. Also Sekera injury was known. You can't just add that up as a misfortune. Chia knew one of his top 4 D would be out half the season and failed to address that adequately.

This is a little disjointed, but I'll try and reply. I actually mentioned Klefa being injured so yeah that's an acknowledgement he had ailments. I have asked repeatedly when did he get hurt last season and when did Chia know. In hindsight, Klefa looked hurt all season. A healthy Klefa all season and the loss of Sekera was no where near as big a concern. Agreed that Klefa gets hurt a lot, but he did play the full 2016-17 season.

2) Chemistry component? Nah, sorry, that's off the charts. I don't accept that Hall was traded for chemistry issues or that he didn't click with McD. That's pure fiction.

Really? I guess "not accepting" the patently obvious is the only way to fuel the hatred for Chia and the trade. It was painfully obvious to most observers, even those who think the trade was a bad deal that the biggest problem with Taylor Hall was between his ears. His play in 2016-17 confirmed that belief. Hall admitted that he changed his mindset last off-season. Why can't you accept what even Hall has admitted?

3) Vegas is critical to the overview because it confirms what a lot of us already recognized. That the cost of providing an effective D and accruing reasonable D was not a Taylor Hall. Vegas has a solid enough looking D platoon without giving up the ranch to get it. These were available guys. These were all D who were considered not good enough to protect.

If Chia had generous expansion draft rules and multiple teams willing to make side deals sure he could have acquired defensive help cheaper. Many of the guys not protected were because of agreements between Vegas and other teams on who Vegas would draft so as to not draft other unprotected players.

 

[Drivesaitl]

^Invoking myth is a human method to explain the unexplainable. In short Mythology.

The stretches about Hall are fictional. Hall was and always has been a consummate pro. He was not a player that was lacking at any point, he was our best player, always. That he kicked it to the level of being a superstar is good on him. Those that realized his abilities saw that potential and he had already exceeded PPG play 2 previous seasons and was a still young player when traded.

You went to such extent that you said he didn't click with McD. Wheres the evidence of that or why that its critical. He clicked wonderfully well with Drai. As we now know McD-Nuge could be a very productive pairing and Drai-Hall could be a very productive pairing. We had that all here. We had Nurse, Klef to build on. We had a solid core. You had stated that Chia inherited a poor core.

More clearly you stated that Chia had inherited a core that had performed poorly for a longtime. This is the biggest fiction. Chia saw half a season of the McD era, and a near Rookie Draisaitl before pulling the plug on what this core could do. Clearly the core was DIFFERENT and better prior to the Hall trade. It was a clearly better quality of core than had been seen here since 2006.

 

[shoop]

^Invoking myth is a human method to explain the unexplainable. In short Mythology.

The stretches about Hall are fictional. Hall was and always has been a consummate pro. He was not a player that was lacking at any point, he was our best player, always. That he kicked it to the level of being a superstar is good on him. Those that realized his abilities saw that potential and he had already exceeded PPG play 2 previous seasons and was a still young player when traded.

Thanks for the morning chuckle.

Hall himself admitted he wasn't willing to be coached and had his infamous dinner with John Hynes last off-season. Hall's worst season as a pro was 2016-17.

Hynes and the Devils got through to Hall in a way that Hall wasn't open to here. Maybe getting traded was the spark Hall needed to actually behave like a consumate pro this season.

Any claim that Hall has 'always been a consummate pro' is utterly and absolutely false. Many of the Hall fanboys here will justify Hall's unwillingess to be coached as an Oiler and blame it on the revolving door of coaches.

You usually post more rational and supportable arguments than this. Not sure why you would push such a patently false narrative that the marjority of both sides of 'the trade' clearly disagree with.

 

[Drivesaitl]

^Lets dismantle some more fiction.

Hall had 50pts in first 52GP before pulling the chute on what was yet another meaningless season. If that represents some kind of terrible season to you you're welcome to that distortion. I don't look at what transpired that season or in Halls tenure here and blame him for it. Its not his fault the org kept prioritizing top picks over team performance.

"Wasn't willing to be coached" lol. It took one dinner with Hynes to have him at the top of his game. Wow, what arduous work for a GM spending all that time with a kid...(sarcasm). To me, as I've stated that's about as plug and play as it gets.

Again Hall exceeded ppg player twice in his career here, now 3 times. Hall was always going to get better as maturing star players tend to do. Hall is one of the most consistent players in the league year to year.


Finally invoking false plurality is your poorest response. Hardly anybody here defends this trade or engages in Hall fictions to try to explain away the trade. Most of those that do (not saying you) have obvious agenda's. But in anycase what patently false agenda am I pushing. All I'm doing is refuting made up narratives that are only poor attempts to explain away what was a terrible trade.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

^Lets dismantle some more fiction.

Hall had 50pts in first 52GP before pulling the chute on what was yet another meaningless season.

now that's what I call "leadership" and being "consummate pro"...quitting on your team

 

[Drivesaitl]

now that's what I call "leadership" and being "consummate pro"...quitting on your team

This "team" would bend any player and it took 6 seasons for that to occur with Hall and take him to the point where the org futility finally got him to pull the chute in what was another completely pointless closing out of another non playoff season.

In retrospect him staying healthy, prioritizing that, was maybe astute as perhaps he knew the same GM that had traded Seguin, Wheeler, Kessel was going to pull the plug on him too.

 

[JarvisFunk]

I think people are underestimating just how much piss poor goaltending sunk us this year