Fan 590's Howard Berger: Contentious debate about draft

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Scoogs

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I would think that they would want Crosby to go into a hockey hotbed. Now, don't think I'm saying he's comming to Toronto... I don't think that. If he does then, YAY... But.

I honestly think he is going to end up with the NYR. It just seems to be like that would help get this league back from the grave and revive it, by having the star of the league in NY. :dunno:
 

Motown Beatdown

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speeds said:
true, but can you seriously say that WSH looks to be as good as PHI for next season, or would have been as good as PHI if they had played last season?

No we can't perfectly forecast how the teams would have performed last year, does that mean we shouldn't bother at all?

But who thought the Caps would be one of the worst teams in 2003-2004? After all they were 92 point playoff team the year before. No one predicited that either.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Master Shake said:
WRONG.
They made efforts to not go belly up financially!

Dont make me hit you with my stick.

Washington is a fat cat team that tried to buy a winner for years, but failed because their management was STUPID. In fact, Washington was directly responsible for undermining Pittsburgh's operation when they got Jagr and signed Robert Lang!

Ted Leonsis' decision to dump everyone was a hockey related decision. I have a hard time believing that a couple of million dollars in losses could undermine the financial wellbeing of a multi-billionaire.
 

Epsilon

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Oct 26, 2002
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slats432 said:
You can't be serious. Teams slowly rebuild, but since we are on HF, each great prospect is a sure turnaround for an organization. Let's see, if the lockout happened a few years ago, you would say...oh..well, they got Kovalchuk.(no need to have Heatley or Lehtonen on that team.)

That's not his point at all. Sure teams rebuilt slowly...under the old CBA. If the NHL CBA ends up looking anything like what the NHL wants, it will be possible to rapidly build and dismantle teams, NFL-style, so that last years laughers are this years finalists. Frankly, several examples have already been pointed out: in one season Washington went from a playoff team loaded with stars like Jagr, Gonchar, and Lang to a basement team that got the first overall pick. In the same time frame, Calgary went from perennial doormat to Stanley Cup finalist.
 

SuperNintendoChalmrs

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Base it on the records of the previous 3 or 5 years. It should follow some kind of standard. Otherwise this will look like the draft order of a fantasy football league.

:shakehead
 

Stephen

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Scugs said:
I would think that they would want Crosby to go into a hockey hotbed. Now, don't think I'm saying he's comming to Toronto... I don't think that. If he does then, YAY... But.

I honestly think he is going to end up with the NYR. It just seems to be like that would help get this league back from the grave and revive it, by having the star of the league in NY. :dunno:

According to the whiners on hfboards, Crosby should go to the smallest, most untraditional market in the NHL. And I think they're right.

I hope Crosby goes to one of Carolina, Phoenix or Florida, personally. I think it would just be a complete disaster if he went to any one of New York City, Toronto, Detroit, Philadelphia.
 

Tawnos

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Scugs said:
I would think that they would want Crosby to go into a hockey hotbed. Now, don't think I'm saying he's comming to Toronto... I don't think that. If he does then, YAY... But.

I honestly think he is going to end up with the NYR. It just seems to be like that would help get this league back from the grave and revive it, by having the star of the league in NY. :dunno:

It would be smart, no doubt about that. But still, I don't know how they could justify it. I am a Rangers fan, and I would love to have him, even if he was just given to us. But I don't see it being justifiable. They can't do points from the last 4 seasons btw, you're rewarding teams just for being expansions... again.

Stephen, how exactly would it be a disaster for Crosby to end up in NY? Or LA? Or even Chicago? To have Crosby maximize league-wide interest, he needs to be somewhere visible.
 

HSHS

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mooseOAK said:
Washington and Pittsburgh made conscious efforts to get rid of their best players and get worse. Why should they be rewarded for that two drafts in a row?

God how many times do I have to hear this backwards argument... I'm sure the Patriot fans are really jealous of the Cardinals.

And as a lowly small market fan, I still think everyone deserves a shot to get ANY spot in the upcoming order. It just needs to be heavily weighted. If we use 4 seasons or whatever, the latter seasons should also be weighted. Giving TB a better shot at a higher position than Wash/LA/EDM (just guessing at teams to make the point) is ridiculous. Particularly teams like Wash and Edm... The Wash teams that put up nearly 100 pts in the early 2000's doesn't exist. And then there's Edm middle of the pack type teams...
 

Stephen

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SuperNintendoChalmrs said:
Base it on the records of the previous 3 or 5 years. It should follow some kind of standard. Otherwise this will look like the draft order of a fantasy football league.

:shakehead


That's not fair either.

Why should a team's performance in 1999 or 2000 influence how they draft in 2005? If that's the case, does Tampa Bay end up with a better shot at a top 10 pick than a team like St. Louis?
 

HSHS

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mooseOAK said:
So what? Point still stands.

Charity to those teams for me ends with the salary cap.

I do agree with this... small market team's reward from this season IS the new CBA.

Large market team's reward is simply a more profitable business for their owners.
 

Slats432

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Epsilon said:
That's not his point at all. Sure teams rebuilt slowly...under the old CBA. If the NHL CBA ends up looking anything like what the NHL wants, it will be possible to rapidly build and dismantle teams, NFL-style, so that last years laughers are this years finalists. Frankly, several examples have already been pointed out: in one season Washington went from a playoff team loaded with stars like Jagr, Gonchar, and Lang to a basement team that got the first overall pick. In the same time frame, Calgary went from perennial doormat to Stanley Cup finalist.
That is why I am saying that the Leafs should get some chance at Crosby, but obviously not equal to what Pittsburgh should get.

As far as the Flames go, they didn't load up on high priced talent to go to the finals. That point has no validity.

Try telling me that Tampa or Detroit, regardless of a new CBA wouldn't be ahead of most teams at the end of the season that wasn't. Try telling me that Toronto and Philly, if a season had been played, even under the new $42.5 proposed new world order, wouldn't have been near the top of the standings.

The difference between myself and the big market fans is that as an Oiler fan, I think that Washington and Pittsburgh should have a better shot at Crosby than the Oilers. It is the only common sense thing to do.

Let's play a little game...which one of these teams needs Crosby more....
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/roster?team=pit
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/roster?team=tam
 

Stephen

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Tawnos said:
Stephen, how exactly would it be a disaster for Crosby to end up in NY? Or LA? Or even Chicago? To have Crosby maximize league-wide interest, he needs to be somewhere visible.

I was being sarcastic.

But if you listen to some of the militant small market fans around here whine, you'd come away thinking that Crosby should only go to a money losing, bottom feeding Bible belt team.
 

HSHS

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Stephen said:
In the new world order, Toronto, Detroit and Philly will no longer be big spending teams. They will be forced to get under the cap like all other teams, so why would they deserve Crosby any less than Los Angeles or Minnesota or Buffalo?


Because they haven't proved to us that they suck yet.... my team has. :eek:
 

Slats432

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Stephen said:
I was being sarcastic.

But if you listen to some of the militant small market fans around here whine, you'd come away thinking that Crosby should only go to a money losing, bottom feeding Bible belt team.
No...just a team that needs him, based on something other than (How about us?).

And quickly looking, the Leafs would have a better shot than a few teams if there was a league weighted lottery....you guys have been 5th, 9th, 3rd and 13th in the last four years.(At quick glance, forgive me for any errors.)
 

Hab-a-maniac

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The conflicting part of this is that if he goes free for all 30 teams, his choice is the Habs! Now sure, you naysayers and Leaf fanatics will contend that he says that now but he will go where the money and attention is as if Montreal cannot afford to pay a kid whose dream is to lace up the skates for them (similar to the Habs nabbing Beliveau). Oh he'll get more attention from the whole province of Quebec and the city of Montreal than most markets except Toronto. Sorry, but he'd be bigger news if he was on a Canadian team than if he was on any American team because up here we just seem to love kids like Crosby. Screw New York, they only latch on to whatever athlete is the hot topic at the moment!

But in three seperate interviews he and his agent have made it clear that if it came down to free agency, Montreal would be at the top of the list. As long as Gillette and Gainey go hard at him, he could end up a Hab. But IMO, the NHL won't and shouldn't let it come to this. In my heart of hearts, I want Crosby to become a Canadien but it's better for the NHL if he goes to a team that needs him to rebuild their franchise (but NYR are not one of those teams; I wouldn't mind seeing him go to one of the lower end teams but unfortunately all those loser squads seem to be in the same Eastern Conf. Montreal plays in giving me visions of him torturing his favourite team for years to come!).
 

txpd

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CalgaryThrasher said:
They've got to weigh the lottery based on the past 3 seasons success.

I have to speak up and disagree with this. By doing that you significantly elevate the chances of both Tampa Bay and Calgary getting that choice. Combined they have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last three years. They were both in the finals last season. I am not thinking they deserve a shot at a top draft choice, Crosby or not.

At the same time you deminish the chances of a team like Washington that has made the playoffs once in the last three season, but is going thru a complete rebuild.

Draft order is not about where you were three years ago. Its about where you were last season. A team that won the Stanley Cup 3 seasons ago could honestly be rebuilding and deserving of a top draft choice because they were in fact horrible in the last season. You are penalizing teams for players they no longer have and bonus teams who are in a strong winning curve and has the players.
 

Stephen

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slats432 said:
No...just a team that needs him, based on something other than (How about us?).

I sincerely believe that every team needs a Crosby-type player as much as any other team in the league.
 

HSHS

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Stephen said:
Washington is a fat cat team that tried to buy a winner for years, but failed because their management was STUPID. In fact, Washington was directly responsible for undermining Pittsburgh's operation when they got Jagr and signed Robert Lang!

Ted Leonsis' decision to dump everyone was a hockey related decision. I have a hard time believing that a couple of million dollars in losses could undermine the financial wellbeing of a multi-billionaire.

-Wash is no fat cat team... not in the past nor in the future. They TRIED to be, and got it shoved back in their face. I believe their quotes were something like: "We wanted to show everyone we are buyers now, not sellers" when they got Jagr. Then they tried to cover up a bad decision by another one... get Lang. I agree it was poor judgement combined with poor drafts and player development. They lost their coach and their identity trying to be something they are not.

-Wash didn't undermind Pitt... they helped them out. Jagr was a trade. Lang was leaving anyways. Pitt was dumping salary regardless of Wash.

-Spot on... Wash dumping was a hockey related decision. Blow-up team... start again. Wash will be one of the biggest beneficiaries from this lock-out. A fact I am not lost on.

-But there was a monetay aspect to it. He just couldn't keep getting the 20M in losses infused into the business from minority partners nor from himself.
 

Slats432

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Stephen said:
I sincerely believe that every team needs a Crosby-type player as much as any other team in the league.
There is no doubt in my mind you believe that the Leafs need Crosby and should have as much chance at him as anyone else.

I do not believe the Oilers need Crosby as much as Pittsburgh and the like.

Maybe a team like Toronto that has too much committed payroll and will likely have to trim it just to survive the new world order might feel a lot of pain in transition but in my opinion, the team shouldn't have made their offseason signings to put themselves into that situation.
 

nyrmessier011

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there is absolutly no way that every team should have a good shot...i mean, that's not even common sense to give tampa bay who just won the cup a shot at the "next gretzky."
 

Morbo

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Hab-a-maniac said:
The conflicting part of this is that if he goes free for all 30 teams, his choice is the Habs! Now sure, you naysayers and Leaf fanatics will contend that he says that now but he will go where the money and attention is

Crosby himself and his agent said that, if he was a free agent, it will be a business decision. Not Leaf fans and naysayers.
 

HSHS

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Stephen said:
That's not fair either.

Why should a team's performance in 1999 or 2000 influence how they draft in 2005? If that's the case, does Tampa Bay end up with a better shot at a top 10 pick than a team like St. Louis?

you beat me.... I guess if the Isreali president can shake hands with the Iranian and Syrian presidents, I could agree with a TML fan on something. ;)
 

Master Shake*

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heshootshescores said:
-Wash is no fat cat team... not in the past nor in the future. They TRIED to be, and got it shoved back in their face. I believe their quotes were something like: "We wanted to show everyone we are buyers now, not sellers" when they got Jagr. Then they tried to cover up a bad decision by another one... get Lang. I agree it was poor judgement combined with poor drafts and player development. They lost their coach and their identity trying to be something they are not.

-Wash didn't undermind Pitt... they helped them out. Jagr was a trade. Lang was leaving anyways. Pitt was dumping salary regardless of Wash.

-Spot on... Wash dumping was a hockey related decision. Blow-up team... start again. Wash will be one of the biggest beneficiaries from this lock-out. A fact I am not lost on.

-But there was a monetay aspect to it. He just couldn't keep getting the 20M in losses infused into the business from minority partners nor from himself.

Good post. I was bout to enlighten him about Lincoln Holdings and the fact the caps lose more then a few mill a YEAR.
 

HSHS

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slats432 said:
There is no doubt in my mind you believe that the Leafs need Crosby and should have as much chance at him as anyone else.

I do not believe the Oilers need Crosby as much as Pittsburgh and the like.

Maybe a team like Toronto that has too much committed payroll and will likely have to trim it just to survive the new world order might feel a lot of pain in transition but in my opinion, the team shouldn't have made their offseason signings to put themselves into that situation.


Belfour anyone??????? And don't say the Leafs organization didn't see a low salary cap coming.
 
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