FA/Trade Thread 2014-2015 Season V.10

[pspot]

again if they trade guys like kessel/phanuef and the direction is give young players minutes surrounded by vets like winnik/sant then its not really an issue if they are overpaid...and maybe should be for what they are doing

they are providing more value to the leafs then other teams in a way and sacrificing years of their career for the franchise

 

[mydnyte]

A lot of discussion on JVR, although I think all things considered (skill,contract,etc) we should keep him.

Would anyone do

To Van
JVR, McWilliam

To Tor
Kassian, Virtanen, 2015 1st

I'd ask for Horvat/Tanev and the 2015 1st at a bare minimum

...not really sold on Virtanen, and Kassian has never overly impressed me, other than being a tough guy ...what will he become a slightly better version of Chris Neil, or are people still thinking he'll evolve into Lucic someday?

 

[613Leafer]

A lot of discussion on JVR, although I think all things considered (skill,contract,etc) we should keep him.

Would anyone do

To Van
JVR, McWilliam

To Tor
Kassian, Virtanen, 2015 1st

Nope, that has no studs coming back. If we're moving JVR, I'd want a STUD, or at least a better package than that.

I'd also want a C or D specifically, not a couple wingers and a mid 1st. Instead of Virtanen as the central piece, I'd be interested in:

Seth Jones
Derek Pouliot+
Morrissey+
G. Reinhart+
Maybe something around a ~4-6th overall pick in this draft, which I could potentially see Columbus or Ottawa doing if they end up in that range.

From Vancouver, I'd be more interested in Horvat++ than Virtanen.

 

[SprDaVE]

...... lol you could make this comment about any player. Of course, with any player, including Crosby, if they price themselves off your team, then you don't keep them... If their price tag reflects what they are worth, then I suggest we keep them.

Your comment would be equivalent to a Lightning fan saying, I suggest we keep Stamkos. Then another poster comes and responds and says, WHAT IF HE ASKS FOR 15 MILLION PER YEAR! YIKES!

You're missing the point that I've mentioned. It depends on the price really because if you can re-sign them for dirt cheap (around what they make but long-term) of course you re-sign them. But reality is that they will ask for significant raises and that's when their value go down dramatically.

Winnik has outpriced his stay with every team he's played for in the last few years. Always asking for around 3M long-term. Do we really want that kind of player for a few years making that kind of money? There's no way we can re-sign him for less then that.

Santorelli is on pace for a career year and has been a journeyman NHL player his whole career. He's been a fine player but at what point does he stop being a good player for his contract to an average player for his contract? It's the perfect time to sell high on him. If Raymond can go from a 1M bargain bin contract to making 3.5M long-term, Santorelli will easily get that as well.

They are both 30 years old. The Leafs are not going to be a good team for awhile. They won't make us better in the short-term. Get the best value you can right now for them. Sell high. That's the main point to take away from what I'm trying to say. Re-signing average players to keep us average is not what we should be doing. We can find more average players in the bargain bin next season.

 

[theIceWookie]

The fascination with 2-way journeymen players is just oustanding sometimes with this fan base.

We can't like our elite offensive player but we love players that can barely put up 40 points. We then re-sign those players for a few years and then they become bad... I wonder why.

Just trade them to the highest bidders, unless they sign for dirt dirt cheap --- which won't happen anyway.

Just gut the team as much as possible, then call up Leivo to play in a top 9 role and then career AHLers like Ashton, Frattin and/or Abbott to round it out. It really can't be any worst then it is now.

But they're two-way players dude! TWO-WAY!!!!!

 

[mydnyte]

Nope, that has no studs coming back. If we're moving JVR, I'd want a STUD, or at least a better package than that.

I'd also want a C or D specifically, not a couple wingers and a mid 1st. Instead of Virtanen as the central piece, I'd be interested in:

Seth Jones
Derek Pouliot+
Morrissey+
G. Reinhart+
Maybe something around a ~4-6th overall pick in this draft, which I could potentially see Columbus or Ottawa doing if they end up in that range.

From Vancouver, I'd be more interested in Horvat++ than Virtanen.

decent idea, but it gets me thinking... if we were to swing a deal with the Ducks and snag Gibson, and then come the draft we dangle

JVR + Rielly + Bernier ...would either of the Oilers or Buffalo be able to refuse?

They both have high end Center prospects already, and that package would perhaps be too sweet to refuse.
they each get their #1 goalie, top pairing offensive D-man, and a top line Winger

 

[theIceWookie]

Gotta keep the dream alive, right?

Probably was for a mid round pick of some kind.

Haha I saw this in the main trade board and totally forgot that the Leafs had Winnik. Woops

 

[Antropovsky]

Komarov you keep because he's signed long term... the others were brought in on 1 year deals for a few reasons, one of which being, if we're out of the playoffs, they are cheap and pending UFA's, thus major deadline trade bait, and that is how they should be used.

Next year a new slew of cheap and almost identical players will be available once more ...this is how you work a team, if you are filling the bottom 6 with UFA's rather than your home grown youth!! ...we didnt do it properly with Macarthur, and Raymond, and got back squat, and it's not like either is setting the world on fire since... they both should have been dealt.

sign em cheap and short, build up some value, trade them off for futures, repeat.

shame he's played really poorly, as Booth was another in the same boat, but likely nobody will want him, save for a really late pick, or a low end or real longshot prospect.

..... How are you going to develop young players, or develop an image within your franchise, if you have a revolving door of veteran players coming in and out, on a yearly basis?

No stability, no reward system...doesn't matter how good you play in Toronto, your getting traded until they magically draft their next leader?

Ridiculous

The NHL isn't rich in hard working players, horde them if you can. We have Nylander, Kadri, Rielly, JVR and even Kessel (For now), we're rich on offensive skill.

Santorelli is an ideal 3rd liner, Winnik is an ideal 3rd/4th liner. Komarov is an ideal 3rd liner. AND most importantly opposing teams fear competing against them.

 

[RLF]

Nope, that has no studs coming back. If we're moving JVR, I'd want a STUD, or at least a better package than that.

I'd also want a C or D specifically, not a couple wingers and a mid 1st. Instead of Virtanen as the central piece, I'd be interested in:

Seth Jones
Derek Pouliot+
Morrissey+
G. Reinhart+
Maybe something around a ~4-6th overall pick in this draft, which I could potentially see Columbus or Ottawa doing if they end up in that range.

From Vancouver, I'd be more interested in Horvat++ than Virtanen.

Fair enough, I see Virtanen as a more physical JVR type, Kassian as a 3rd liner with the toughness we lack and a midish 1st along with our own 1st(likely top 10 after the deal) as a good start moving forward. It would be nice to get a Jones, Morrissey+...I just don't see teams giving them up for wingers in most cases unless it's a glaring need. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[080]

I'd rather focus on other parts of our cupboards. I think our goaltending depth right now is in a good place. Bernier should be here for a long time, Gibson and Bibeau have showed a lot of promise and Sparks, despite battling a lot of injuries, should also be a decent option once healthy. Gibson is a great prospect though, I don't disagree.

If the Ducks are a team focused in getting Franson, they have a lot of pieces that I'd much prefer to get. Shea Theodore would be so great to be able to get in this trade. With their defensive depth (especially after getting Franson), I think the Ducks could be willing to part with a top defensive prospect like Theodore for the right deal.

I would throw in someone like Santorelli if the Ducks wanted as well. We likely don`t wanna pay him 3+ million and we don`t want him helping us win games for the rest of the year with his work ethic.

The Ducks would be pretty loaded for a playoff run. And then they`d be able to decide on both instead of being locked into any contracts.

 

[Antropovsky]

You're missing the point that I've mentioned. It depends on the price really because if you can re-sign them for dirt cheap (around what they make but long-term) of course you re-sign them. But reality is that they will ask for significant raises and that's when their value go down dramatically.

Winnik has outpriced his stay with every team he's played for in the last few years. Always asking for around 3M long-term. Do we really want that kind of player for a few years making that kind of money? There's no way we can re-sign him for less then that.

Santorelli is on pace for a career year and has been a journeyman NHL player his whole career. He's been a fine player but at what point does he stop being a good player for his contract to an average player for his contract? It's the perfect time to sell high on him. I'm sure he'll do fine where he goes but for now, we are not at the point of re-signing these kind of players.

They are both 30 years old. The Leafs are not going to be a good team for awhile. They won't make us better in the short-term. Get the best value you can right now for them. Sell high. That's the main point to take away from what I'm trying to say. Re-signing average players to keep us average is not what we should be doing. We can find more average players in the bargain bin next season.

Please post a link as proof of Winnik pricing himself off of the teams he's played, and give proof of his 3 million dollar long term demands.

 

[SprDaVE]

I would throw in someone like Santorelli if the Ducks wanted as well. We likely don`t wanna pay him 3+ million and we don`t want him helping us win games for the rest of the year with his work ethic.

The Ducks would be pretty loaded for a playoff run. And then they`d be able to decide on both instead of being locked into any contracts.

Santorelli isn't helping us win now, he won't for the foreseeable future.

 

[theIceWookie]

Doesn't it depend on the tree? Suppose you planted a crab apple and it is a pear orchard?

And it would depend on where the fault is when you're building something.

Sometimes you do tear it all down if your original plan was faulty and your foundation is flawed. All rebuilding upon a flawed foundation is going to do is use good money after bad.


Regardless, it always depends upon the return. Don't fall in love with the player, and we aren't talking a MacKinnon here, however we also aren't talking the problem with the team. Rielly's a 2nd./3rd. pairing, 20 year old defender. He could be part of the solution in the future, right now he's just along for the ride. He looks like a kid player a man's game, which is to be expected he's a kid playing a man's game.
Perhaps he's being held back by inept leadership on the team, Landeskog in Colorado went in a played like a man, so much so they made him captain but perhaps he wasn't held back by anyone there, or he's just a special player?

Well obviously. I think that should be the case in any scenario. If you get a great offer you obviously move the player.

It's just funny to me that people are already talking about a guy we drafted in 2012. If we're doing this now, we're never going to be a good team because we're never going to be able to take the time to build a team...because patience is an important part of development and building. Something this fan base has very little of.

It's just for a fan base who seems to almost fetishize drafting, and downplay trading, to suggest trading Rielly ALREADY is a shocking double standard.

 

[ULF_55]

...... lol you could make this comment about any player. Of course, with any player, including Crosby, if they price themselves off your team, then you don't keep them... If their price tag reflects what they are worth, then I suggest we keep them.

Your comment would be equivalent to a Lightning fan saying, I suggest we keep Stamkos. Then another poster comes and responds and says, WHAT IF HE ASKS FOR 15 MILLION PER YEAR! YIKES!

Stamkos is elite, not a normal player, doesn't belong in journeymen player discussions. These guys don't price themselves off your team, their teammates do. There is a max category for these guys, a league mandated max.

But really, term is the issue.

And Stamkos does it every year, same as Crosby, a better example would be what if Vorachek as for 12 million for 8 years? He is the leading scorer on the Flyers and the league. What if he asks for 12 million for 5 years? 8 million for 7?

Even Toews and Kane's contracts regress over term.

 

[SprDaVE]

Please post a link as proof of Winnik pricing himself off of the teams he's played, and give proof of his 3 million dollar long term demands.

It's well documented that Winnik outpriced his stay with Anaheim, San Jose and Colorado. Anaheim (a cup contender) decided that they would rather go with youth then re-sign Winnik... that says a lot.

You can do your research if you don't believe me. I'm going from memory and I'm confident with my information.

 

[theIceWookie]

Fair enough, I see Virtanen as a more physical JVR type, Kassian as a 3rd liner with the toughness we lack and a midish 1st along with our own 1st(likely top 10 after the deal) as a good start moving forward. It would be nice to get a Jones, Morrissey+...I just don't see teams giving them up for wingers in most cases unless it's a glaring need. Hope I'm wrong.

I don't mind that deal. I'd prefer to trade JVR for a similar aged dman, but the package deal isn't awful.

I agree with you about Virtanen being a more physical JVR. He's a recent top 10 pick which is wicked too and still very young. Would be nice to add his kind of physicality to the future. I think he could be a pretty unique winger for Nylander. It makes sense for the Canucks too, I doubt they are looking to move Horvat, and moving Virtanen for a player they hope he could turn into (roughly...bear with me) makes a lot of sense for them.

 

[theIceWookie]

Santorelli isn't helping us win now, he won't for the foreseeable future.

I'd be careful with that logic. It's pretty easy to go from that with Santorelli to that with a Rielly.

I think it makes sense to trade Santa. Maybe he really loves Toronto too and he can come back in the offseason for a decent price and term (nothing longer than 3 years)

 

[ULF_55]

I don't mind that deal. I'd prefer to trade JVR for a similar aged dman, but the package deal isn't awful.

I agree with you about Virtanen being a more physical JVR. He's a recent top 10 pick which is wicked too and still very young. Would be nice to add his kind of physicality to the future. I think he could be a pretty unique winger for Nylander. It makes sense for the Canucks too, I doubt they are looking to move Horvat, and moving Virtanen for a player they hope he could turn into (roughly...bear with me) makes a lot of sense for them.

If trading van Riemsdyk for a OEL calibre defender I'd say sure, but I'd rather a B.Jenner type of player, and I'd see if the Leafs actually have drafted a defender in the Granberg, Percy, Loov, Nilsson, Finn group of players. Heck, maybe 20 year old Valiev surprises everyone and makes the team in October?

If they don't have a real defender in that group, the Leafs truly have been hoodwinked by the Burke regime.

 

[RLF]

I don't mind that deal. I'd prefer to trade JVR for a similar aged dman, but the package deal isn't awful.

I agree with you about Virtanen being a more physical JVR. He's a recent top 10 pick which is wicked too and still very young. Would be nice to add his kind of physicality to the future. I think he could be a pretty unique winger for Nylander. It makes sense for the Canucks too, I doubt they are looking to move Horvat, and moving Virtanen for a player they hope he could turn into (roughly...bear with me) makes a lot of sense for them.

Bolded. I agree. They are weakest down the middle and Horvat is playing well. Also, like you said, if you have players like Nylander down the middle, you need big physical guys on his wings. Speed and skill are great assets, but we also need size that can play in the top 6(9).

 

[613Leafer]

Santorelli is this years MacArthur/Raymond. A good "buy low" option whose value we've pumped up.

Now we should sell high on him, and then sign another 3-4 "buy low" options in the offseason. There's no reason to think we couldn't find another similar player yet again after doing it three times in a row, and this time we can actually get value for the player instead of losing him for nothing.

 

[TheJet11]

Winnik priced himself out of a couple of longer-term deals last offseason. His play this year will likely serve to increase his value (and ultimately we were lucky he fell into our laps.

As much as I love what he offers on the PK and at even strength, I think his greatest value would be in dealing him for a pick and NOT spending ~3M to retain him. I can't provide any evidence saying he'll look for that kind of $$$, but It seems logical that his representatives would ask for something similar to what Komarov got last year. ($2.95M/year for 4 years). He is probably worth that much too, I just think that with the direction that the team is heading and the need to maintain cap flexibility going forward, that we might not be able to afford him at that price.

If we can get a second rounder for Winnik, I'd move him in a heartbeat. (With the assumption that we'd maintain interest in re-signing him on July 1 if the price is right!)

Same goes for Santorelli. good player, great value (this year!) - and could be a useful piece to a contender. Hold onto him until someone gives us a reasonable price (2nd rounder or greater) and then deal him.

Those guys are winning players. Give them a shot to win the cup with contenders this year, and then if you can resign them, you'll have added assets (picks/prospects) and experience.

I know that it rarely happens where guys get dealt at the deadline and resign with their previous club, but I'd much rather move them and get a return, than take a chance of losing them for nothing.

 

[timlap]

Santorelli is this years MacArthur/Raymond. A good "buy low" option whose value we've pumped up.

Now we should sell high on him, and then sign another 3-4 "buy low" options in the offseason. There's no reason to think we couldn't find another similar player yet again after doing it three times in a row, and this time we can actually get value for the player instead of losing him for nothing.

I don't think it's always going to be easy to find guys the quality of Sanotrelli and Winnik. In my mind they both bring qualities that make them excellent depth players. I wouldn't object to signing them to economical contracts, but I won't be surprised to see that they prefer to test the market. Can't blame them, but in that case, I would move them for a pick if such a deal is available.

And although people often chase the money, I wonder if they would be wiser to stick with a team where they are appreciated and are having (individual) success. Easy for me to say, I guess.

 

[Maplebeasts]

decent idea, but it gets me thinking... if we were to swing a deal with the Ducks and snag Gibson, and then come the draft we dangle

JVR + Rielly + Bernier ...would either of the Oilers or Buffalo be able to refuse?

They both have high end Center prospects already, and that package would perhaps be too sweet to refuse.
they each get their #1 goalie, top pairing offensive D-man, and a top line Winger

No I wouldn't trade Rielly. We need high end talent literally everywhere on this team so trading Rielly, JVR and Bernier for one of Mceichel isn't worth it so long as they are unproven. Don't see why we get rid of Bernier unless he refuses to sign here again. Remember how long it took us to find a good goalie after Eddie retired? Gibson is no guaranteed elite netminder.

 

[mydnyte]

..... How are you going to develop young players, or develop an image within your franchise, if you have a revolving door of veteran players coming in and out, on a yearly basis?

No stability, no reward system...doesn't matter how good you play in Toronto, your getting traded until they magically draft their next leader?

Ridiculous

The NHL isn't rich in hard working players, horde them if you can. We have Nylander, Kadri, Rielly, JVR and even Kessel (For now), we're rich on offensive skill.

Santorelli is an ideal 3rd liner, Winnik is an ideal 3rd/4th liner. Komarov is an ideal 3rd liner. AND most importantly opposing teams fear competing against them.

this is exactly the problem ...we should fill our bottom 6 with Marlies, not UFA's

 

[SprDaVE]

I'd be careful with that logic. It's pretty easy to go from that with Santorelli to that with a Rielly.

I think it makes sense to trade Santa. Maybe he really loves Toronto too and he can come back in the offseason for a decent price and term (nothing longer than 3 years)

The logic is that Santorelli isn't going to be much better then he is. A solid top 9 versatile player.

Rielly is a RFA for quite a few years and with a lot of untapped potential. It's not really comparable.

Santorelli was a great bargain bin find, just like Raymond was, but he'll want to cash in on that success. I just don't think we're in a position to give him a long-ish term deal while we transition the core to something else.

Again, I like Santorelli and I wouldn't even be slightly upset if he's re-signed to a great deal but I think trading him while his value is at an all time high would be smarter. We need to get younger in the process and I'm sure we can find someone similar again in the upcoming off-season if there's a hole.