Espo on Tretiak

[mooseOAK*]

Yeah, Espo's right. Not like Tretiak won 3 Olympic Golds and a Silver or anything. Not like he won 13 titles in the 2nd best (and maybe, at the time, THE best) league in the world. Not like he led his team to 10 IIHF World Championships.

Nah, that Tretiak guy... what did he ever do?

I would throw the league titles out because the Central Red Army team was deliberately stacked with most of the best Soviet players.

The IIHF titles mean little since they were just as much professionals as the Canadians were. Ditto for the Olympics.

Put Henderson in if Tretiak is in the HOF.

 

[statistics]

Europeans make up about 25% of the NHL right now, If I recall correctly. In the 70s, I think European hockey was not as developed as it is today and I suspect, closer to 10 or 15% of the NHL would have been Europeans.

I think it's about 26%. And remember not all the european NHL caliber players play in the NHL, Alexei Morozov, Kenny Jonsson, Mika Noronen etc.

Edit. 30%-->26%

 

[Little Nilan]

LOL.

I don't think Esposito cares about or even remembers those games.

The World Championships is still considered unimporant by Canadian players. We have NEVER sent our best team and many players choose not to go simply because they don't care.

How could he remember how Tretiak was then? Honestly, it's time to lay down the Canadian goggles .

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

The IIHF titles mean little since they were just as much professionals as the Canadians were. Ditto for the Olympics.

But, in the World Championships, there opponents were pros from other European leagues.

 

[BNHL]

He's widely recognized by the so called experts as one of the greatest ever. I once heard Espo say he worked out like the pros do today. Pure rubbish!

 

[statistics]

Lafleur, P. Esposito, Orr, Clarke, Dryden, T. Esposito, Parent, Vachon, Dionne, Trottier, Bossy, Park, Potvin, Robinson and many others played during the 70s. The rest of the world combined cannot boast such a list of superstars as the NHL had during the decade.

Valeri Kharlamov, Vladislav Tretiak, Boris Michailov, Vladimir Petrov, Alexander Maltsev, Jiri Holecek, Vladimir Martinec, Erich Kühnhackl, Jiri Holik, Kent Nilsson, Gordie Howe, Mark Howe, Bobby Hull...

 

[Stephen]

I like Espo and I have always been a big fan. One of the best things about him is that he says what he is thinking and doesn't hold back.

I agree with him. Tretiak played maybe 20 games against the best competition in the world and his numbers were not very good in those games.

Beating AHL-level competition in the Olympics and World Championships really isn't that significant an accomplishment. Can you imagine how many points Espo would have put up in those tournaments????

For once we agree. How hard was it to rack up wins and stats in a league where every team is a farm team for your club? How many of his Olympic medals came against amateur teams that featured weaker opposition, and how much can a handful of games determine the legacy of a player?

 

[statistics]

How hard was it to rack up wins and stats in a league where every team is a farm team for your club?

These farm teams were better or about same quality teams as NHL teams.

 

[statistics]

How many of his Olympic medals came against amateur teams that featured weaker opposition, and how much can a handful of games determine the legacy of a player?

They came againts best possible Czechoslovakian, Swedish, Finnish, West-German... teams.

 

[Randall Graves*]

aaah,ya just gotta love Espo.

just when i think i can't love the guy anymore then i do he gives us the straight dirt on Tretiak.

You're the best Espo,you were in 72 and you are now.

And you accuse Russians of being biased all the time?

 

[mcphee]

These farm teams were better or about same quality teams as NHL teams.

What's with your devotion to the structure of Soviet hockey ? I asked Kaizer if what we in Canada had perceived was true ? The old Soviet system top loaded their league to produce the best possible national team.

Do you have a problem with his answer or do you just have a problem with the NHL ? You're pretty transparent. At least say something rather than this 'everyone thinks' crap.

If the league was loaded in favor of Red Army,Dynamo, did it not affect the validity of the competition ? It makes it harder to tell stories of Soviet hockey because it seems to be only relevant to int'l competitions. How does scoring 50 goals in 50 games matter if the opposition's best defenseman was requested by another team ?

The period from 72-79 produced some great teams in the NHL. The Bruins had some powerful teams, the Flyers,Sabres,Islanders, Rangers all had teams that are very impressive when looked at historically. I'd argue that the Canadiens team of the 70's has to be considered when picking the greatest club teams of all time.

So, if there's a joke here, I don't get it.

 

[mcphee]

That was a very good post.

I think we will always disagree about Tretiak's exact place in the goaltender hierarchy but, I think we can all agree that Tretiak was very good.

Now lets argue about Gretzky vs Makarov.

What we'll never know is how Tretiak would grow or adapt in a different style game. The great ones adjust constantly.

 

[canucksfan]

Phil Esposito is one of my favorite players of all time. He is always outspoken and that's always a plus in my books because now a days players are like robots when they are asked questions. He played awesome in the 72' Summit Series and was the best player on the ice for that tournament.

However, I do disagree with him. I am not a big Tretiak fan though I think many people overrate him. I'll start with the positives. As a 20 year old player in the 72' Summit Series he played great in the first four games. He played how one of the great goalies should play. The two big games where the Soviets played the Flyers and the Habs Tretiak was amazing in both games. He was the only reason why the Soviets tied that game.

Likewise, in the 76' Canada Cup he was very good again. I only have seen one game in which he played and that was against Canada but he kept the Soviets in the game. In the 81' Canada Cup Tretiak was the MVP of the tournament. Easily his best on best tournament. He won many Olympics and World Championships.

Even though he played well in the first four games of the Summit Series he was terrible when the Series shifted to Moscow. His save percentage was brutal and he blew a three goal lead in the final game. Tretiak was pulled during the game against the Americans in 1980. Finally, his Olympic and World Championship wins were against much weaker opponets. Only the Czech Republic gave the Soviets a decent challenge.

Tretiak after Hasek is the best goalie from Europe. I think it's very hard to judge him because he played so few games against good competition. I think he deserves to be in the HHOF. However, I wouldn't put him in my top ten of all time goalies list though.

 

[statistics]

What's with your devotion to the structure of Soviet hockey ? I asked Kaizer if what we in Canada had perceived was true ? The old Soviet system top loaded their league to produce the best possible national team.

Do you have a problem with his answer or do you just have a problem with the NHL ? You're pretty transparent. At least say something rather than this 'everyone thinks' crap.

If the league was loaded in favor of Red Army,Dynamo, did it not affect the validity of the competition ? It makes it harder to tell stories of Soviet hockey because it seems to be only relevant to int'l competitions. How does scoring 50 goals in 50 games matter if the opposition's best defenseman was requested by another team ?

The period from 72-79 produced some great teams in the NHL. The Bruins had some powerful teams, the Flyers,Sabres,Islanders, Rangers all had teams that are very impressive when looked at historically. I'd argue that the Canadiens team of the 70's has to be considered when picking the greatest club teams of all time.

So, if there's a joke here, I don't get it.

http://www.russianhockey.net/USSRvsNHL.htm

The joke: 1972-1979 NHL is overrated and european hockey is underrated. Most north-americans doesn't know anything about european hockey or anything else what is going outside north-america so they assume it's some ECHL level hockey.

 

[Reks]

The two big games where the Soviets played the Flyers and the Habs Tretiak was amazing in both games. He was the only reason why the Soviets tied that game.

Well, it's probably offtopic but anyway ...

I really don't understand such a logic:
If Canada (NHL team) won (or almost won like in Montreal in 75) it becomes "the big game", "the greatest game ever", etc
If Canada (NHL team) lost it was because they either didn't play together before or didn't take a game seriously or ..

For example, Super Series 75-76:
Red Army - NY Rangers 7:3 - silence;
Red Army - Montreal 3:3 - great game;
Red Army - Boston 5:2 - silence;
Red Army - Flyers 1:4 - great game, "Stanley Cup Winner is better that the best Soviet League Club", etc

Super Series 79-80:
Red Army - NY Islanders 3:2 - silence, despite the fact that NY Islanders was the Stanley Cup Winner!

 

[Ogopogo*]

I think it's about 26%. And remember not all the european NHL caliber players play in the NHL, Alexei Morozov, Kenny Jonsson, Mika Noronen etc.

Edit. 30%-->26%

Players like those are marginal NHLers. Noronen went back to Europe because he couldn't get a starter's job in the NHL.

 

[Ogopogo*]

How could he remember how Tretiak was then? Honestly, it's time to lay down the Canadian goggles .

LOL.

Remember '72? A little young for that one?

 

[Ogopogo*]

Valeri Kharlamov, Vladislav Tretiak, Boris Michailov, Vladimir Petrov, Alexander Maltsev, Jiri Holecek, Vladimir Martinec, Erich Kühnhackl, Jiri Holik, Kent Nilsson, Gordie Howe, Mark Howe, Bobby Hull...

Some decent players for sure but, I'll take the list of NHLers. Most of the players you mention built a career facing less than NHL-calibre competition. Howe and Hull were past their primes in the WHA.

Until this thread I have never even heard the name Martinec. I would take Esposito or Lafleur over him any day.

 

[Ogopogo*]

These farm teams were better or about same quality teams as NHL teams.

 

[Ogopogo*]

They came againts best possible Czechoslovakian, Swedish, Finnish, West-German... teams.

Which were well below NHL quality

 

[Ogopogo*]

Well, it's probably offtopic but anyway ...

I really don't understand such a logic:
If Canada (NHL team) won (or almost won like in Montreal in 75) it becomes "the big game", "the greatest game ever", etc
If Canada (NHL team) lost it was because they either didn't play together before or didn't take a game seriously or ..

For example, Super Series 75-76:
Red Army - NY Rangers 7:3 - silence;
Red Army - Montreal 3:3 - great game;
Red Army - Boston 5:2 - silence;
Red Army - Flyers 1:4 - great game, "Stanley Cup Winner is better that the best Soviet League Club", etc

Super Series 79-80:
Red Army - NY Islanders 3:2 - silence, despite the fact that NY Islanders was the Stanley Cup Winner!

Why don't we just throw them all out. It is well known that NHL players did not want to play these games and, I remember in the 80s, there were half empty arenas for the games.

It appeared that the 1976 tour was taken seriously but, after that, it was considered nothing more serious than players take the all star game today. Let's not use these games as comparison.

 

[Reks]

Until this thread I have never even heard the name Martinec. I would take Esposito or Lafleur over him any day.

LOL.

I am sure that Czechs have different opinions. But who cares. Czech Republic is so far from Canada And almost nobody ever even heard about them

 

[Reks]

Which were well below NHL quality

Yeah, poor, poor Czech team of the 70-ties ... What I can say... Maybe some time later even biased fans would recognize that at least 1/3 of that team should be in the Hall.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Reks, I try not to be biassed, but I am a Canadian fan and I recognize how strong the Czechslovakian program was in the late 60's through the 70's. Not sure I'd say 1/3, but a good handfull of players.

Some decent players for sure but, I'll take the list of NHLers. Most of the players you mention built a career facing less than NHL-calibre competition. Howe and Hull were past their primes in the WHA.

Until this thread I have never even heard the name Martinec. I would take Esposito or Lafleur over him any day.

Which is why you probably aren't well suited to discussing the quality of European hockey in the 1970's. He was only the 5 time MVP of the 3rd or 4th biggest hockey country in the world at that time.

Would all have them have succeeded? No. A lot of factors involved. But there were alot of serious game breakers outside the NHL. Many early expansion teams would have had alot more success with some of the names listed.

Was the overall talent level of these leagues equal to the NHL? No. But I think your answer is logically false. You claim the league is inferior because the players are inferior and the players are inferior because the league is inferior. Your argument begs the question. You fail to prove that either the league or the players are inferior. Was the soviet league messed up? Yes. Could it have been a great league with balanced rosters? Very much so. Did the Czech league lack depth? Yes. Does that mean the top end players were sub-par? No. I compair it to the PCHA. The PCHA was inferior to the NHL, but, the PCHA teams could beat NHL teams. NHL stars wouldn't destroy the PCHA, they'd do slightly better. And when PCHA stars went to the NHL, they'd still be stars.

 

[Reks]

Reks, I try not to be biassed, but I am a Canadian fan and I recognize how strong the Czechslovakian program was in the late 60's through the 70's. Not sure I'd say 1/3, but a good handfull of players.

Nalyd, I am really sorry. I didn't mean at all that all Canadian fans are biased. What I wanted to say was that there are some biased fans in Canada. But, probably, some time later even those fans would recognize how good Czech team was in the 70-ties. Anyway, I edited the previous post.