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Espo on Tretiak

Reks

Registered User
Oct 23, 2006
247
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A good post, Rexor!

I wouldn't say that Makarov failed in the NHL. Krutov did.
Makarov simply didn't play at Gretzky level as a lot of people expected.

But ... both of them came to an absolutely different world speaking no language at all! Both were over 30!

And one more thing that everybody seems to forget.
A lot of people here are saying that Soviets always were in better shape (for example, during Canada Cup times) than Canadians, since they were training all year around.

It's true to some extent. But the Soviet players needed to pay a huge price for that. They were basically done at 30-32 by such a brutal training system. Thanks to that system Makarov at 31 = Gretzky at 41 (probably).
 

Rexor

Registered User
Oct 24, 2006
1,455
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Brno
Reks said:
But the Soviet players needed to pay a huge price for that. They were basically done at 30-32 by such a brutal training system. Thanks to that system Makarov at 31 = Gretzky at 41 (probably).
Click to expand...
Yes, I've watched a Swedish documentary about Tikhonov's methods recently, he
was a tyrant. On the other hand, Larionov's or Fetisov's carreers were very long,
so it's individual.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
A lot of reaction to things I have posted. Good stuff.

It is true that I don't know much about European hockey in the 70s. It is also true that I have always been a fan of the NHL.

The topic began as a discussion about Tretiak. My take on him is that he was a very good goalie but, not as great as many believe. Is he one of the top 10 goalies to ever play the game? Could be. I would certainly put Glenn Hall, Patrick Roy, Jacques Plante, Ken Dryden (despite how badly Dryden played against the Soviets) and Dominik Hasek ahead of him.

My reasoning on Tretiak is simply a lack of evidence. My measuring stick has always been the NHL and there is no real way to compare different leagues. The World Championships did not feature the best Canada had to offer and the Russian league was stacked in CSKA's favor. The only tangible evidence we have is 1972 and the Canada Cups. Tretiak was good in those tournaments but, he showed he wasn't bullet proof. That is the only evidence we have.

As I said, the Russian league was inequitable at the time. The stats from that league cannot be really taken at face value when CSKA was stacked like it was.

As for other European leagues, I have no idea. I can only speculate that the NHL was superior because, still today, Canada produces more NHLers than the rest of the world combined. I think it is a fair assumption to say that the NHL was still the strongest league in the 1970s.

I enjoy all of the great Russian players that have come to North America and I like the fact that we can now measure their talents against Canadian stars in the NHL. I give players like Bure, Kovalchuk and Fedorov their due. With a consistent measuring stick (NHL) it is much easier to guage players real value. For those unfamiliar with my work, Jaromir Jagr is the greatest European of all time and he is #11 overall on my list. Hasek is the greatest European goalie of all time and he is #5 on my goalie list. They could both move up those lists with great seasons this year.

Perhaps, when I have the time, I will look into European hockey in the 70s. My passion will always be the NHL.
 

Reks

Registered User
Oct 23, 2006
247
2
Well, Larionov is younger ...
Plus, he was fluent in English when he landed in Canada.
But, he was less talented than both Krutov and Makarov.

As for Fetisov. That guy is simply incredible. One of the ten greatest players ever.
 

Randall Graves*

Guest
Ogopogo said:
A lot of reaction to things I have posted. Good stuff.


As for other European leagues, I have no idea. I can only speculate that the NHL was superior because, still today, Canada produces more NHLers than the rest of the world combined. I think it is a fair assumption to say that the NHL was still the strongest league in the 1970s.
Click to expand...

Yes Canada produces more NHL'ers but how does Canada compare to Europe in terms of high end players being produced?
 
mcphee

mcphee

Registered User
Feb 6, 2003
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RallyKiller said:
Yes Canada produces more NHL'ers but how does Canada compare to Europe in terms of high end players being produced?
Click to expand...

If you go by the scoring leaders, quite well, or at least as they should be in terms of comparing % of players to % of top 10 scorers. I did a quick count while going thru the paper the other day and I was surpised. I don't know if this year is different, I believe Canada's showing better than usual this year, in this regard.

There's been an influx over the last 5 years of Canadian offensive players, with Crosby,Staal, Spezza, Bergeron, and the crew from the WJC a few years back.

The US seems to be beginning a big wave of top end talent now, so the question will be interesting in 5 years again.
 
Little Nilan

Little Nilan

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Oct 29, 2006
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Praha
Rexor said:
I usually like your posts about the NHL but your lack of European hockey knowledge
is funny. How can you be so positive the NHL "was simply a better league". Just
because most of European players weren't allowed to play in the NHL due to political
reasons, so you couldn't see them playing? Alright, but they were allowed after the
fall of The Iron Curtain. The result?
In the period from 1991-2006:
Best goaltender, most Harts: Hašek (Euro)
Most Art Rosses: Jágr (Euro)
Most Norris Trophies: Lidstrom (Euro)
etc
What's your Top 10 of the world's best players during 1991-2006 period? Mine is Hašek, Jágr, Lidstrom, Bure, Forsberg, Lemieux, Bourgue, Sakic, Roy, Brodeur. It's 50/50.There's no reason to think it was significantly different between 1975-1990 for instance.
I don't get how you can say that the European hockey was less developed in the
70's. Russians were actually even better than now. People claim Kovalev and Yashin
are underachievers, I'm pretty sure these players wouldn't be floaters under someone like Tikhonov.Don't forget that the CSKA were an army team. Their players were soldiers and they were trained like soldiers. Makarov failed in the NHL since he missed this army discipline. Anyway, do you consider Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Frolov, Zubov,Kovalev, Datsyuk, Nabokov, Khabibulin etc worse or less talented than any of today's Canadian players? If not, then there's no reason to claim Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Makarov, Firsov and others were worse than Canadian stars like Orr, Esposito, Potvin, Cournoyer or Lafleur.
Canada had more depth and was better overall than Czechoslovakia in the 70's,
I agree. But compared to USSR, I'm not sure at all.
And one can say the Stanley Cups won in the 70's and 80's are meaningless since
the best Euros were not allowed to play in the NHL that time. I don't agree with this,
but it's the same logic like that you are using in order to ridicule "meaningless World
Championships".
Click to expand...

I also find it funny that knowledgeable coaches I've talked to and played with seem to all agree European technical skills were at the time, and now, much more developped. In fact, a lot of these coaches have completly changed their approach because of the arrival of european knowledge in hockey. The USSR perfected technical skills 30 years before North Americans did. This goes farther then hockey as well, it's the same in music but most of the knowledge is being lost since the fall.
 

shawnmullin

Registered User
Jul 20, 2005
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0
Swift Current
Nalyd Psycho said:
He's close to it this year. The knock against him is his perennial bridesmaid status. Never really the best, but this year he'll dispell that.
Click to expand...

I think for a long time there was the myth that Brodeur was simply a product of New Jersey's strong defensive system.

However, his Gold Medal and World Cup wins should've done wonders to kill that myth.

Also, despite the loss of Niedermayer, Stevens and others from this great defensive unit - he's still among the absolute best in the game. Despite the game opening up, his numbers are still terrific. Despite them taking away a weapon of his (puckhandling) he hasn't lost a step.

Is this not a top 5 goalie? 3 cups, unmatched consistency...
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
RallyKiller said:
Yes Canada produces more NHL'ers but how does Canada compare to Europe in terms of high end players being produced?
Click to expand...

I think Canada does OK with players like Crosby, Spezza, Heatley, Iginla, Brodeur, Lecavalier, St. Louis, Pronger, Niedermayer, Phaneuf etc.

The top 10 players of all time are Canadians.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Reks

Registered User
Oct 23, 2006
247
2
Well, my top 10 players (no goalies) of all time certainly include Kharlamov and Fetisov.
 

RorschachWJK

Registered User
Dec 28, 2004
4,941
1,299
Ogopogo said:
I like Espo and I have always been a big fan. One of the best things about him is that he says what he is thinking and doesn't hold back.

I agree with him. Tretiak played maybe 20 games against the best competition in the world and his numbers were not very good in those games.

Beating AHL-level competition in the Olympics and World Championships really isn't that significant an accomplishment. Can you imagine how many points Espo would have put up in those tournaments????
Click to expand...

AHL-level competition? What in the bloody hell are you talking about? Maybe that's true for Canada, as most of the best players were playing in the NHL at the time and couldn't compete in those tourneys. But certainly not true for Sweden, Finland and Czechoslovakia. During Tretiaks reign almost all the best players from those countries were able to compete at Olympics and at Worlds. The talent was there back then, as it is today. The guys just played in Europe instead of NHL.

Everybody knows that for you the NHL is the only thing that counts. That's your problem, frankly I don't much care. However, I do think you should try to be a little less insulting with your biased comments. That's the least you could do.
 

Randall Graves*

Guest
Ogopogo said:
I think Canada does OK with players like Crosby, Spezza, Heatley, Iginla, Brodeur, Lecavalier, St. Louis, Pronger, Niedermayer, Phaneuf etc.

The top 10 players of all time are Canadians.
Click to expand...
And european countries do fine too with Jagr, Lidstrom, Selanne, Sundin, Kipprusoff, Chara, Havlat, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Hossa and so on.
 

statistics

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
326
0
Finland
Soviet Union vs. WHA 1974 (soviets won 4, Canada won 1 and 3 ties)

Soviets used 29 players.

Krylja Sovetov 10 players
CSKA 10
Spartak Moscow 4
Dynamo Moscow 3
Torpedo Gorky 1
SKA Leningrad 1

1973-1974 soviet league had 9 teams. 1974-1975 10 teams.
 

Reks

Registered User
Oct 23, 2006
247
2
The previous post is a good illustration that CSKA wasn't a stacked team in the 70-ties.

Another example:
Soviet League Cup 1974 - Soviet Wings
Soviet League Cup 1975 - Red Army (CSKA)
Soviet League Cup 1976 - Spartak Moscow

Then, in 1977, Tikhonov became a head coach of both Soviet National Team and CSKA. And he started to lure players from other Soviet clubs. The result is well-known. Red Army won 13 straight Cups from 1977 to 1989. However, the competion was not weak. Dynamo Moscow, Spartak Moscow, Soviet Wings were still there. And Tikhonov wasn't able to get players from those clubs for Red Army. That's why there were around 50% of non-Red Army players in Soviet National Team even in 80ties.
 

statistics

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
326
0
Finland
Soviets best scorer vs. WHA was Alexander Yakushev Spartak Moscow. Yakushev played his whole career at Spartak Moscow.

Great player and never played CSKA.

CAREER HIGHLIGTS:

USSR League 1963-80: 568 games, 339 goals
Team USSR 1965-77: 201 games, 145 goals

USSR Gold (3): 1967, 1969, 1976
WC Gold: (8) 1967, 1969-1970, 1973-1975, 1978-1979
Olympics Gold: (2) 1972, 1976
Played in the Summit Series 72, vs. WHA 1974, Superseries 75-76, 76-77, 78-79
National Awards:
USSR All Stars 1976
Scoring Leader (G) 1974
Merited Sports Master (USSR ZMS) 1970
International Awards:
WC Best Forward 1975
IIHF All Stars 1974, 1975
 
Last edited:
Hank19

Hank19

Registered User
Apr 11, 2005
1,870
1
Reks said:
A good post, Rexor!

I wouldn't say that Makarov failed in the NHL. Krutov did.
Makarov simply didn't play at Gretzky level as a lot of people expected.

But ... both of them came to an absolutely different world speaking no language at all! Both were over 30!

And one more thing that everybody seems to forget.
A lot of people here are saying that Soviets always were in better shape (for example, during Canada Cup times) than Canadians, since they were training all year around.

It's true to some extent. But the Soviet players needed to pay a huge price for that. They were basically done at 30-32 by such a brutal training system. Thanks to that system Makarov at 31 = Gretzky at 41 (probably).
Click to expand...

That's bunk. In that era ALL pro hockey players were shot at that point. I remember when a players prime was between 24-27 years old. By the time they hit 30 they were a year or two from retirement.
It's grown leaps and bounds since the 70's and 80's due to modern science and how these players take care of themselves. Bobby Hull said himself how after a game they'd hit the beers not the stationary bikes. And offseason workouts consisted of carrying the empties to Brewers Retail.

The fact is these Russian teams had a distinct advantage over the 'allstar' teams they faced. They trained 11.5 months a year so they knew each other. And a LOT of these players were NHL calibre talents. Can you imagine if you took the best Canadian players in 1980 and had them train together for 11 months and then put them up against Russian's best players who were thrown together at the last minute? They would DESTROY them. The fact that the various Team Canada's did compete against them and beat them the majority of the time tells you how good our boys were and are.

For those interested in Russia's training habits during this time please read Todd Hartje's "From Behind the Red Line". It's a fantastic book and it really shows what great athletes the Russian's were. But it was also sad because most of the players only got 1 week off a year from training. And that's no lie. Todd said that their only incentive in performing well during the regular season was that their coach promised them an extra week with their families in the spring. That's 51 weeks out of the year some of these guys trained.
 
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