Confirmed with Link: [EDM/NJD] Maroon for 2019 3rd Round Pick and JD Dudek

[Canovin]

Picks are only worth as much as who was there. If most teams are dumb enough to pass on McDavid and he was sitting there at 30th for example, it's not the 30th pick you were trading for, the pick now becomes the value of McDavid

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Again, entirely based on personal opinion. Ignoring the impact that Larsson had on Klefbom's breakout is also not surprising. This is exactly what @Asiaoil is talking about with his posts. A group of posters circle-jerking about perceived valuations and revisionist history based on zero facts to support the same meandering argument. It's a pissing contest and a complete waste of time.

The blanket statement about 'not having the infrastructure' to build a successful team is absolute garbage. The team has already shown the ability to execute. What are our needs now? 'Fast' wingers and a puck-moving defenseman. Yeah--not exactly groundbreaking when you look at those pieces logically.

They showed an ability to execute when everything went right and most of the roster was healthy.
And when the GM actually took steps to improving the team.

 

[belair]

You can twist it anyway you want, Barzal was never an Oiler...

Can you believe Kevin Lowe traded Zach Parise for Marc Antoine Pouliot and JF Jacques!?!?!

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

The trade was 16+33 for Reinhart. That's a loss. Maybe Snow liked Barzal and ONLY Barzal being available would seal the deal. If that's the case, Snow's evaluation of Reinhart's value was just as bad as Green's. Either way, all you need to know is 16+33. Draft picks in that range could either work out or not. Other teams passed on Barzal for lesser players before he got to 16 too.

Oh I agree completely. I think Snow is a horrible GM that just so happened to pull off two heists against an even worse GM. My posting history can also prove I've also mocked the Bruins on several occasions for passing on Barzal 3 times. If only Boston had went with Barzal instead of Zboril or Senyshen or something. I guarantee you the posts discussing drafting Eriksson-Ek over Barzal wouldn't be nearly as heated as the posts discussing the Reinhart trade.

 

[Throttlehead]

Who knew Brandon Davidson and Patrick Maroon had the same value.

 

[belair]

They showed an ability to execute when everything went right and most of the roster was healthy.
And when the GM actually took steps to improving the team.

'Everything' didn't go right. The team struggled in many facets throughout the season. We saw some benchmark regular season results from specific players, but in what reality do these players have no chance of replicating those performances? Connor McDavid was 20 years old, Draisaitl 21. The core of our roster not much older. Are these players due for career-long regression now?

The idea of the GM 'making steps to improve the team' this summer is assuming those improvements were readily available and without a negative impact of their financial viability long-term.

I'm not happy where they are, nor would I have personally made the same decisions as he did this summer, but we were not in a position to be casting long-term financial stability to the wind in an effort to attempt to prevent what many assumed was going to be a certain level of regression this season.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Again, entirely based on personal opinion. Ignoring the impact that Larsson had on Klefbom's breakout is also not surprising. This is exactly what @Asiaoil is talking about with his posts. A group of posters circle-jerking about perceived valuations and revisionist history based on zero facts to support the same meandering argument. It's a pissing contest and a complete waste of time.

The blanket statement about 'not having the infrastructure' to build a successful team is absolute garbage. The team has already shown the ability to execute. What are our needs now? 'Fast' wingers and a puck-moving defenseman. Yeah--not exactly groundbreaking when you look at those pieces logically.

Zero facts? Does McDavid's Hart trophy not count as a fact? Does Draisaitl's top 10 scoring finish not count as a fact? Does Sather literally saying to the media that he gave the Oilers a discount not count as a fact? What about the multiple media sources that reported that Sather rejected higher offers? Your vaunted evidence for the Sather discount is linked below, unless you want to deem all 3 of Richards, Principe, and Dreger liars. As for the Klefbom/Larsson situation I actually agree that being paired with Larsson likely elevated Klefbom's play, but I find it pretty hypocritical of you to criticize other posters for "zero facts" and then you make a comment like that without evidence. Dig up some facts about Larsson's impact on Klefbom's play and come back.


Sather Rejected A Trade For Talbot, Still Working

Guess what? Fast scoring wingers and puck moving defensemen who can quarterback the PP are part of the infrastructure of a team, especially the latter. Very few teams have been successful without a high end power play quarterback from the blueline and they're usually some of the highest valued pieces in an organization. Chiarelli traded away numerous assets and failed to address the PMDPPQB position for 3 years now. That's a fail.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Don't believe a word he says. But his words are irrelevant. Again, all we need to know is 16+33 for Reinhart was a bad trade. Barzal's availability is irrelevant. Your going on some sort of crusade to say how bad that trade is, it's like trying to convince people water is wet. Everyone knows already just based on 16+33. Why are you rambling on about Barzal.

Actually we do have one particular poster (who I wont mention by name to avoid an infraction) who defends the Reinhart trade. And in any case, if posters like you are going to quote my post saying "calling it the Barzal trade is wrong" then I'm going to provide the evidence of the contrary whether or not you believe it.

 

[TheNumber4]

Actually we do have one particular poster (who I wont mention by name to avoid an infraction) who defends the Reinhart trade. And in any case, if posters like you are going to quote my post saying "calling it the Barzal trade is wrong" then I'm going to provide the evidence of the contrary whether or not you believe it.

I think I and others are saying who cares if its the Barzal trade or not? Your evidence is Staples tweet which I put very little faith in. But either way it doesn't matter, cause all you are essentially saying is the trade was bad. Which 99% of Oilers fans know. Barzal was on the table, no one knew Barzal would be doing what Barzal is doing until he did it. So now were also adding a hindsight argument in there. Teams passed on Barzal. The Oilers with McDavid and Draisaitl and RNH at the time of that pick probably would have passed him too. So they'd be like the 6 other teams that didn't identify the player Barzal would be.

 

[belair]

Picks are only worth as much as who was there. If most teams are dumb enough to pass on McDavid and he was sitting there at 30th for example, it's not the 30th pick you were trading for, the pick now becomes the value of McDavid

And it's the perceived value of the player that was there AT THE TIME. Looking back on it three years later when players have become more established is called hindsight. And everyone's a pro with that available to them. If you were one of them calling Barzal a stud at the time, give yourself a pat on the back.

 

[Canovin]

And it's the perceived value of the player that was there AT THE TIME. Looking back on it three years later when players have become more established is called hindsight. And everyone's a pro with that available to them. If you were one of them calling Barzal a stud at the time, give yourself a pat on the back.

I don't think anyone is really losing sleep over a 16th pick. It's who was there at 16th. This applies to any prospects, not just Barzal. If Barzal is a stud and you know it, the asking price should have doubled at least.

 

[McRpro]

Can you believe Kevin Lowe traded Zach Parise for Marc Antoine Pouliot and JF Jacques!?!?!

Traded young Lucic for Samsonov too.

 

[Little Fury]

If we're talking about three years of results then we're also taking into account that staggering improvement last season.

We are, but it represents only 1/3 of the sample and is, by the GM's own account, an obvious case of almost everything that could go right going right. If your theory is that the 17/18 Oilers don't represent the real thing, the 16/17 team doesn't either.

I know people like to skim the Chiarelli pressers and magnify his foibles--god bless the internet generation--but he's actually correct that the margins have become very small in this league. In the salary cap era there just aren't the regular season powerhouses there used to be. So when you speak of becoming 'a Calgary or Colorado' it doesn't compute.

Are you going to look at the past, say, five years and tell me there haven't been teams that have consistently rolled through the regular season like Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, St. Louis and Anaheim?

The 'best team' on paper doesn't always win the Stanley Cup.

It sure as hell increases your chances over "just make the playoffs and hope to catch a stiff tailwind."

In terms of sustained success, you have to have a team that buys into a system that is successful. To do that you have to have the right players to set the example. This league isn't 'load-up-on-talent-and-shoot-the-lights-out' anymore.

This just isn't true. Look at the cream of the crop in the league this year: outside of Vegas (who are probably overachieving but still have a decent amount of talent on the roster) teams like Tampa, Nashville, Winnipeg and Pittsburgh are stacked with high end talent. What did they do that the Oilers didn't?

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

I don't think anyone is really losing sleep over a 16th pick. It's who was there at 16th. This applies to any prospects, not just Barzal. If Barzal is a stud and you know it, the asking price should have doubled at least.

The thing is Chiarelli and the scouting staff didn't know Barzal was a stud. He wanted Eriksson-Ek. Just another example of our organization's incompetence. Hopefully Keith Gretzky gets us a few Pastrnaks.

 

[Canovin]

The thing is Chiarelli and the scouting staff didn't know Barzal was a stud. He wanted Eriksson-Ek. Just another example of our organization's incompetence. Hopefully Keith Gretzky gets us a few Pastrnaks.

At the time of the trade, I was furious and I still tried to defend Chia and said, maybe he wasn't the one who made that call based on the draft video. But after trade blunders after trade blunders, you start to ask yourself, maybe we are giving Chia too much credit.

 

[redgrant]

Just realized the chia defenders have one less "he won the maroon trade" defense.

Gave away junk for maroon and got junk back.

That's a wash.

 

[belair]

Zero facts? Does McDavid's Hart trophy not count as a fact? Does Draisaitl's top 10 scoring finish not count as a fact? Does Sather literally saying to the media that he gave the Oilers a discount not count as a fact? What about the multiple media sources that reported that Sather rejected higher offers? Your vaunted evidence for the Sather discount is linked below, unless you want to deem all 3 of Richards, Principe, and Dreger liars. As for the Klefbom/Larsson situation I actually agree that being paired with Larsson likely elevated Klefbom's play, but I find it pretty hypocritical of you to criticize other posters for "zero facts" and then you make a comment like that without evidence. Dig up some facts about Larsson's impact on Klefbom's play and come back.


Sather Rejected A Trade For Talbot, Still Working

Guess what? Fast scoring wingers and puck moving defensemen who can quarterback the PP are part of the infrastructure of a team, especially the latter. Very few teams have been successful without a high end power play quarterback from the blueline and they're usually some of the highest valued pieces in an organization. Chiarelli traded away numerous assets and failed to address the PMDPPQB position for 3 years now. That's a fail.

Sure they count as fact, but precisely how influential were they ultimately to the success of the team? Up for debate. It's arguable that our ability to keep its GA to the lowest point its been at in 15 years had more of an effect on our success than our ability to produce offense. And were those benchmark offensive performances still possible had the Oilers continued to be a possessional tire fire being cycled to death by their divisional rivals? As I've said before, the 'cuz McDavid argument for why good things happen is so bloody false. You have an example this season of why defensive execution is key to successful results and the 'cuz McDavid quickly turns to the 'cuz Chiarelli like clockwork.

As for the Talbot trade, I was aware of the 'discount' Chiarelli got but a 2nd, 3rd and 7th for a one year to UFA goaltender isn't exactly a freebie. When a younger, similarly talented RFA goaltender in Robin Lehner goes with a cap dump for the 21st pick, it's pretty clear that discount is hilariously over-stated. What was Tallon offering up for a back-up that was worth being burned up about?

And as for fast scoring wingers and the PMDPPQB being part of the 'infrastructure'. They can be complimentary pieces. There's no rule-book saying you have to have Drew Doughty on your roster to be successful. As I've mentioned to @Soundwave in multiple posts and reiterated time and time again in the other thread, those types of defenseman you're alluding to are almost always drafted by the organizations they support. And when they are, they're rarely traded.

And in regard to the bolded, you're right, completely hypocritical. I have absolutely zero ambition to interpret specific advanced stats in a way that supports an argument on how a defenseman's defensive game has impacted the offense of another's game. Because ultimately it's going to be contested anyways.

 

[TheNumber4]

I don't think anyone is really losing sleep over a 16th pick. It's who was there at 16th. This applies to any prospects, not just Barzal. If Barzal is a stud and you know it, the asking price should have doubled at least.

I'm losing sleep over 16th AND 33rd Pick for someone who was deemed to be busting by even casual NHL fans. If there's something to be pissed off about about that trade, it's not Barzal, it's not 16+33, its Reinhart. If Reinhart was Hamilton, 16-33 would have been fine. But we know how that played out, we just missed.

 

[Canada Drai]

Has never scored 30 goals or are we rounding up to support your position?

So you rate Maroon equal to around Evander Kane and an RFA Hartman?

If Chia can't wrangle up a proper return then there's no point to even trading him. He's likely to sign in St.Louis for 4 years 2.5 million. All we get out of a 30 goal asset is a 3rd and a scrub. This GM can't trade talent to save his life.

 

[TheNumber4]

If Chia can't wrangle up a proper return then there's no point to even trading him. He's likely to sign in St.Louis for 4 years 2.5 million. All we get out of a 30 goal asset is a 3rd and a scrub. This GM can't trade talent to save his life.

You take the return that's available to you. Losing him for nothing is worse than a 3rd. And looking at the market which was the point I was making that you replied to, it looks like the market deemed his worth right around a 3rd round pick. I had this same feeling about his return for weeks just based on Maroon's play as of late, his day to day injury, and his lack of quickness in a league that's all about speed these days. At most, other posters had him pegged getting a second. So essentially 2nd or 3rd was the expectation, and you'd rather have us end up with nothing? Keep him in mind we got him for a 4th and nothing prospect. So at the end of the day it is positive asset management at the very least to make the trade.

 

[guymez]

I’m going to put some of the ‘always sunny in Chia’s world’ posters on ignore too.
But I won’t come here and brag about it after.

Good for you.

 

[guymez]

I agree that the board has become toxic but this season is a disaster, there's absolutely no sugarcoating that. No team with McDavid and Draisaitl (especially being more mature 3rd year players now) should ever be this low in the standings. I expected some regression this season because of heightened expectations and some players regressing to the mean but nobody saw THIS coming.

However, I do think the team is primed for a big bounce back next season although some of that will depend on which moves are made in the offseason but right now, I can understand why some folks have a hard time seeing the light at the end of the tunnel especially considering who is in charge. I lost a lot of confidence in those guys over the past year, guys I had respect for previously.

I agree with all of this.
There was a collective let down on this team and a number of players have been affected.
In all honesty I think if they can resolve the lazy play in the D-zone (way too much indifference and early zone exits...ie cheating) and special teams that will make a major major difference even if they dont add a player.

 

[McMozesmadness]