Movies: Dune: Part Two

LarKing

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Might get some hate for this but I was left a bit disappointed with this movie. The effects and visuals were stunning for sure. There's only so many times a slow mo with dramatic music can have the same effect for me though. I really feel like there was only a few hours of plot and a lot of stuff could have been cut out. I almost feel like I was missing information?

Why can the daughter talk to her mother and what is the significance of this? The reveal of him being that villain's grandson didn't seem to mean anything at all. Serious John Snow Targaryen vibes. The ending fight was over in like 60 seconds. This empire got instantly trounced. And along that line of thought, none of the villains were good. The grandfather does nothing but kill a few henchmen and yell. Drax I couldn't take seriously and he does nothing anyway. The nephew is super cliche and ultimately has zero character. It almost feels like he was thrown in because they realized the other villains had no bite. The emperor does not a thing.

I may have just went into this with too high of expectations. Ultimately still a very good movie imo but I was expecting something fantastic after the reviews it's been getting. Glad I saw it but this feels more of a "see it on the big screen for the great visuals" than a can't miss movie for the story.
 
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SniperHF

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Might get some hate for this but I was left a bit disappointed with this movie.

More or less the same though I wouldn't say disappointed as such more like underwhelmed, since I'm not much a fan of Dune to begin with. But I thought the first one was a lot better, heavy on exposition it was.

This one unfolds like a book report given in grade school (never read the book that's not what I mean). The plot just mostly.......happens and despite all the spectacle, it's mostly tell not show. There's absolutely no tension at all save for a few moments like when Paul has to ride the worm. The last 30 minutes salvaged the movie though I found it rushed compared to the rest of it.

Agree with most of your spoiler as well, particularly the issues with characterization; I'd even take it a step further, there simply isn't any outside of Paul.
 
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Bounces R Way

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Denis Villeneuve, what a giga chad. If he wasn't my favourite big ticket director before he definitely is now. Beautiful movie, the sound design, the costumes, the performances, the pacing, the VFX, the commitment to the setting of Arrakis; thought it was all really top notch.

Don't think I could quite put it up there with the LoTR but not terribly far off either as far as a cinematic experience goes. Some movies are worth seeing in theatres and this is without a doubt one of them.

The plot just mostly.......happens and despite all the spectacle, it's mostly tell not show.
Well, I mean it is based entirely on a prophecy so I don't know how you'd get away from that. There's very few meaningful decisions the characters make other than Paul's to go south, and they belabored that inner conflict. That's just the story, and if you're not a big fan of the story to begin with then the storytelling probably won't make much of a difference.

There's absolutely no tension at all save for a few moments like when Paul has to ride the worm. The last 30 minutes salvaged the movie though I found it rushed compared to the rest of it.
That whole part I remember feeling rushed in the book as well. All the buildup to the climax and not a lot of detail on how it went down. But really what would another 10-15 minutes of flipping around sand sword battling and explosions really have added?
 

HanSolo

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Might get some hate for this but I was left a bit disappointed with this movie. The effects and visuals were stunning for sure. There's only so many times a slow mo with dramatic music can have the same effect for me though. I really feel like there was only a few hours of plot and a lot of stuff could have been cut out. I almost feel like I was missing information?

Why can the daughter talk to her mother and what is the significance of this? The reveal of him being that villain's grandson didn't seem to mean anything at all. Serious John Snow Targaryen vibes. The ending fight was over in like 60 seconds. This empire got instantly trounced. And along that line of thought, none of the villains were good. The grandfather does nothing but kill a few henchmen and yell. Drax I couldn't take seriously and he does nothing anyway. The nephew is super cliche and ultimately has zero character. It almost feels like he was thrown in because they realized the other villains had no bite. The emperor does not a thing.

I may have just went into this with too high of expectations. Ultimately still a very good movie imo but I was expecting something fantastic after the reviews it's been getting. Glad I saw it but this feels more of a "see it on the big screen for the great visuals" than a can't miss movie for the story.

the daughter has been affected by the water of life Jessica drank while pregnant. Which, if I understand the lore behind spice correctly is like drinking a mega dose of spice, and this affected the unborn daughter's development and connection with Jessica.

The Harkkonen relation had more to do with the Bene Gesserit plans to breed their I guess messiah (Kwizatz Haderach) but it's not really explained fully in the movie, and yeah, doesn't amount to much.

As for Feyd Rautha, I'm not sure what more you were wanting exactly. He has a fleshed out story with him being lined up in a side plot for him to take over as emperor which was nixed by Paul's ascendancy. As for his characterization, he's clearly all about said plan and succeeding where his brother failed. Plus as ruthless as he is, I thought it was interesting how he was depicted as being enticed by power and strength but tied to honor in combat. Personally I don't think a villain needs to be overly complex to be effective, but different strokes I guess.

I also initially complained about how easily the Fremen overwhelmed the Emperor's forces, but after thinking about it, the Fremen's entire existence in hard survival and a great number of them do battle with the Harkkonens on a regular basis so they are technically perfectly battle ready. Harnessing the sheer numbers of the Southern fundamentalists, the sand worms, and Paul's nukes in a suprise attack (in the sense that neither the emperor nor the Harkkonens were expecting an attack of the scale), it's not that implausible that it was such a cakewalk. It's not quite as cinematic as one of LOTR's extended battle scenes but the bit we did get was very well done imo.

As for the Emperor, I mean, even in the book he doesn't contribute much outside of the scheming you saw in the movie. The end result is more or less identical (e.g Paul sweeps his forced and forces him to surrender his throne by threatening to nuke the planet's spice fields). He's not really supposed to be a Palpatine. He's very much a character who was supposed to be this susceptible to having his power so easily shattered and stolen. To put it a different way, he was written to have the authority and power to orchestrate the fall of house Atreides but his power beyond that was meant to be fragile. He wasn't written as some juggernaut antagonist for Paul to overcome improbable odds and dire hardships in the book, so there's no big need for him to be more in the film.

Also wanted to add as a general point on the ease of the final battle and the lack of tension. This isn't a hero's journey or some grand epic of heroism or a triumph of good vs. evil. In a wider sense, Part 2 is a story about Paul's unraveling into a genocidal tyrant who exploits the strength of an indigenous population (and capitalizing on the work of the Bene Gesserit who engaged in a calculated propaganda campaign to corrupt and influence the religious/mythological beliefs of said indigenous peoples) to wage holy war on a galactic society that refuses to recognize his claim for power. It's not a character study on anyone but Paul Atreides.

For what the story was trying to accomplish, I think it was effective. I don't need deeper characterization of the Baron, Chani, Stilgar, Feyd, etc. I was there for the story of one evil being replaced by another under the guise of what looks like justified retribution and triumph over oppressors with the end result being that the "messiah" or "savior" was replacing oppression with genocide and mass war. Again, different strokes for different folks, but I think the story accomplished what it set out to. For the most part. There's still plenty of people on the internet that didn't seem to understand that Paul isn't a hero by the end of the film.
 
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Gee Wally

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I enjoyed it. Although had to go and rewatch the first part before since its been 3 years and I couldn’t remember most of it. Glad I did.

One thing I dont get though is with such advanced technology why do they fight with swords?
 

LarKing

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the daughter has been affected by the water of life Jessica drank while pregnant. Which, if I understand the lore behind spice correctly is like drinking a mega dose of spice, and this affected the unborn daughter's development and connection with Jessica.

The Harkkonen relation had more to do with the Bene Gesserit plans to breed their I guess messiah (Kwizatz Haderach) but it's not really explained fully in the movie, and yeah, doesn't amount to much.

As for Feyd Rautha, I'm not sure what more you were wanting exactly. He has a fleshed out story with him being lined up in a side plot for him to take over as emperor which was nixed by Paul's ascendancy. As for his characterization, he's clearly all about said plan and succeeding where his brother failed. Plus as ruthless as he is, I thought it was interesting how he was depicted as being enticed by power and strength but tied to honor in combat. Personally I don't think a villain needs to be overly complex to be effective, but different strokes I guess.

I also initially complained about how easily the Fremen overwhelmed the Emperor's forces, but after thinking about it, the Fremen's entire existence in hard survival and a great number of them do battle with the Harkkonens on a regular basis so they are technically perfectly battle ready. Harnessing the sheer numbers of the Southern fundamentalists, the sand worms, and Paul's nukes in a suprise attack (in the sense that neither the emperor nor the Harkkonens were expecting an attack of the scale), it's not that implausible that it was such a cakewalk. It's not quite as cinematic as one of LOTR's extended battle scenes but the bit we did get was very well done imo.

As for the Emperor, I mean, even in the book he doesn't contribute much outside of the scheming you saw in the movie. The end result is more or less identical (e.g Paul sweeps his forced and forces him to surrender his throne by threatening to nuke the planet's spice fields). He's not really supposed to be a Palpatine. He's very much a character who was supposed to be this susceptible to having his power so easily shattered and stolen. To put it a different way, he was written to have the authority and power to orchestrate the fall of house Atreides but his power beyond that was meant to be fragile. He wasn't written as some juggernaut antagonist for Paul to overcome improbable odds and dire hardships in the book, so there's no big need for him to be more in the film.

Also wanted to add as a general point on the ease of the final battle and the lack of tension. This isn't a hero's journey or some grand epic of heroism or a triumph of good vs. evil. In a wider sense, Part 2 is a story about Paul's unraveling into a genocidal tyrant who exploits the strength of an indigenous population (and capitalizing on the work of the Bene Gesserit who engaged in a calculated propaganda campaign to corrupt and influence the religious/mythological beliefs of said indigenous peoples) to wage holy war on a galactic society that refuses to recognize his claim for power. It's not a character study on anyone but Paul Atreides.

For what the story was trying to accomplish, I think it was effective. I don't need deeper characterization of the Baron, Chani, Stilgar, Feyd, etc. I was there for the story of one evil being replaced by another under the guise of what looks like justified retribution and triumph over oppressors with the end result being that the "messiah" or "savior" was replacing oppression with genocide and mass war. Again, different strokes for different folks, but I think the story accomplished what it set out to. For the most part. There's still plenty of people on the internet that didn't seem to understand that Paul isn't a hero by the end of the film.

First of all, thank you for the explanation and thorough post. I was hoping someone who understood more would respond to fill me in a bit.

The water thing went way over my head haha. I think what threw me off was that the daughter was speaking way before that scene happened.

Agreed on the Harkkonen relation. I don't think Feyd was a terrible villain, just that he wasn't great. He didn't have a ton of scenes. Him fighting the MC at the end had very little impact for me. He wasn't complex or interesting at all to me. Just kindve felt like a video game boss.

The battle was well done. My issue with it and the empire as a whole is that they just seem so weak. The main group seems to just mess them up at every turn. Also another thing that confused me, and maybe you have more clarification here, is that the Fremen have crazy technology that makes these attacks relatively easy. Was this stolen or do they manufacture it? The magnet tracking bombs that stick to the ships especially seemed to make it super easy for them. The whole empire/Harkkonens just come off as incredibly weak. They never felt insurmountable at all to me and I think that was my issue. Also, does everyone jump on the worms like Paul did, or do they stop once they've been "tamed". How did they get everyone on there is my question.

Respectfully, you keep mentioning the book, and I'm glad it sounds like these movies did the books some justice, but for the non-book readers, that's pretty irrelevant. I'm taking the movie as it is. Staying true to the book doesn't really matter for my movie experience at all.

I get that Paul isn't the hero. It just feels like his whole rise to power came so easily. I understand there was the inner conflict with him not wanting to go south. But it just feels like he does all this crazy easily. And maybe he abused a prophecy making it easier, but still. I would've preferred they use some more of the time they used on slow mo shots of faces and the background on adding a bit more struggle and characterization. The shots were beautiful, don't get me wrong, but at a certain point it was getting overdone imo.

But yeah. I'm not a movie expert by any means, just my opinion. To each their own. Definitely still a movie I'm glad I saw. Just not even close to generational, or whatever word you want to use to describe a top movie, for me.
 

HanSolo

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First of all, thank you for the explanation and thorough post. I was hoping someone who understood more would respond to fill me in a bit.

The water thing went way over my head haha. I think what threw me off was that the daughter was speaking way before that scene happened.

Agreed on the Harkkonen relation. I don't think Feyd was a terrible villain, just that he wasn't great. He didn't have a ton of scenes. Him fighting the MC at the end had very little impact for me. He wasn't complex or interesting at all to me. Just kindve felt like a video game boss.

The battle was well done. My issue with it and the empire as a whole is that they just seem so weak. The main group seems to just mess them up at every turn. Also another thing that confused me, and maybe you have more clarification here, is that the Fremen have crazy technology that makes these attacks relatively easy. Was this stolen or do they manufacture it? The magnet tracking bombs that stick to the ships especially seemed to make it super easy for them. The whole empire/Harkkonens just come off as incredibly weak. They never felt insurmountable at all to me and I think that was my issue. Also, does everyone jump on the worms like Paul did, or do they stop once they've been "tamed". How did they get everyone on there is my question.

Respectfully, you keep mentioning the book, and I'm glad it sounds like these movies did the books some justice, but for the non-book readers, that's pretty irrelevant. I'm taking the movie as it is. Staying true to the book doesn't really matter for my movie experience at all.

I get that Paul isn't the hero. It just feels like his whole rise to power came so easily. I understand there was the inner conflict with him not wanting to go south. But it just feels like he does all this crazy easily. And maybe he abused a prophecy making it easier, but still. I would've preferred they use some more of the time they used on slow mo shots of faces and the background on adding a bit more struggle and characterization. The shots were beautiful, don't get me wrong, but at a certain point it was getting overdone imo.

But yeah. I'm not a movie expert by any means, just my opinion. To each their own. Definitely still a movie I'm glad I saw. Just not even close to generational, or whatever word you want to use to describe a top movie, for me.
Sorry for the super word salad
You might be mixing events up. She wasn't talking to her mother before Jessica drank the poison. Jessica even tells Paul explicitly that she can hear her daughter speak to her in the first scene after consuming the poison and I don't recall any scenes of them talking before then. Definitely before Paul drinks the poison.

I think for me with Feyd-Rautha, he doesn't really need to be some big all timer of a villain. At the end of the day, Paul is the pseduo villain of the story and Feyd is just an obstacle in his way and an another figure in Paul's revenge story. I'm not so big on Feyd as an iconic villain or anything either, but it's an enjoyable performance to experience.

As for the final battle you ask two things. So first, it's not explained in the movies and barely covered in the books but there are supposed to be sietches that have hidden manufacturing factories for stillsuits and weaponry. I think for purposes of the movie you just kind of have to not think about it too much and assume they get their materials from raids. I think a couple expository lines wouldn't have hurt. As to the second part I think the fact that the combined Sardukar/Harkkonen forces being so comprehensively overwhelmed works for three main reasons: 1 like I mentioned, they weren't expecting an attack on that scale which started with a nuclear strike. Granted you could argue that if the Emperor knew that Paul was still alive, he should have anticipated such a strike was possible. 2. The Emperor/Harkkonens never took the Fremen threat seriously. While they were effective in halting spice production, most of the galaxy could never confirm that there were several million Fremen living in the South. So going to Arrakis with the Emperor's full fighting force, they likely assumed the kind of guerrilla warfare that Paul and his Fremen were involved in would be easily deflected by sheer numbers alone. 3. The attack came as somewhat of a surprise. It happened as the Emperor was receiving the Harkkonens to discuss how to handle Paul but they weren't in the process of preparing for a large scale attack. They were essentially holding court and then out of nowhere they get blitzed by a confluence of a sandstorm, nuclear strike, sandworm attack, and a huge rush of Fremen infantry. I think there's enough context in the movies to establish these three points. The point wasn't to make the Sardukar and Harkkonen forces seem weak, just not expecting the degree of the attack they faced because the Fremen have been routinely misunderestimated as they (presumably) never fought united like that and had just been involved in guerrilla style raids. Paul's attack relied a lot on the Emperor/Harkkonens' hubris and fortuitous opportunism. How Paul coordinates a galactic holy war from that point in fairly short order, I don't know. I only read the first book and maybe there's some details I missed. As for how they got multiple people on the backs of sandworms, I couldn't tell you but it's one of those things where if I intentionally tried to question the logic of every fantastical thing I see in sci-fi for realism, I'd be unable to have fun with any of it.

As for the faithfulness to the adaptation, I mean that kind of gets you into a "can't win" scenario. If they change too much from the books, you have a bunch of die hard fans of the source material upset about creative license. If they stick to the source material too much you have people dissatisfied because they didn't quite get the story they were hoping for. I mean in the first instance, a bunch of Dune fans are upset because Denis dared to--heaven forbid--give Chani more agency and more of a moral compass than she had in the books. Personally I think Denis struck up a good enough balance.

As for more world building and characterization of the plight, I don't think shaving off a few long takes is going to leave you with enough time to flesh the story out the way you seem to be hoping for. I agree that things could have been explored more in depth, but on my end, I got from the movies what I need to consume this story for what it is. An example, the plight of the Rebellion in Star Wars is fairly surface level. You have an evil fascist government shown to be controlling the populations of a huge number of planets occupying a galaxy, but in reality, outside of blowing up a planet, Lucas' original trilogy never really shows any tyranny or how it affects the people of the galaxy. You just have rebels talk about how the Empire needs to be overthrown, a montage of planets celebrating the fall of the Empire, and a lightly developed allusion to the Empire governing Bespin's affairs. But you don't see the suffering of the people, you don't see freedoms being restricted, etc.. As hit or miss as the Disney era has been they did a lot more legwork to demonstrate the subjugation and control of Palpatine's empire than anything Lucas did. And that came after what, 11-12 hours of storytelling from Lucas' era of Star Wars not counting the cartoons? Here, the two films are pretty dense even with a combined runtime of 5 hours +. I agree that there's some corner cutting on the world building but I don't think you could add much more than Denis did without a significantly longer runtime or a three part movie and there's just not enough story for three separate films. For me I enjoyed what I got at face value as the world building was enough for me to get a sense of the stakes. Which is how a lot of people end up enjoying the original star wars films.

As for Paul's ease in ascendancy, again, I don't think it's meant to be a big struggle. The core and heartbeat of the story isn't from rooting for a good guy to overcome incredible hardships and obstacles. Like, to make the Succession analogy again, that's a story of shitty people trying desperately to claw for more power than they need and it's replete with obstacle after obstacle until the end. That works for that story because the spirit of that story is how cutthroat and despicable the corporate world can be and how people will fight for unworthy rewards. Dune is telling a different story. It's not about Paul overcoming big challenges to earn his power. It's far more about how Paul knows the consequences of the path he takes and the tragedy of watching him ignore that knowledge to take that path and become exactly who he was trying not to be, callous exploitation of natives and all. Maybe that's not as compelling a story for you as the traditional tales of heroes and anti-heroes overcoming adversity, but to me I find it a refreshing take on an epic/grand scale story and I would imagine it's why Dune (the novel) has such an enduring legacy to begin with. If you're looking for struggle, it first comes with Paul and Jessica defying all odds and surviving the desert and escaping the Harkkonens in part 1 and in part 2 it's the struggle taken by Paul and Chani for Paul to retain his moral center and identity by not giving into the path of a false messiah. From that perspective, the protagonists lose and lose badly. As for the characterization of the characters around Paul, I think we just have to agree to disagree. The characters got as much characterization that, to me as a viewer, they needed.

There's no heroes here except maybe Chani, Duncan, and Duke Leto. Gurney is devoid of morals once he finds a lust and hunger for revenge. Jessica has no qualms about leveraging the propaganda the Bene Jesserit laid for her son to be a false messiah and is even worse about exploiting these advantages with no moral sensibility than Paul who at least resisted, and she behaves that way because she is hungry to stay in power and get revenge for Leto's death. Stilgar's religious fundamentalism and devotion is so deep that he is ready to be a textbook sycophant for Paul even before Paul turns to the extent that he'd die for and wage genocidal war for his believed messiah. Aside from being comic relief he's written as an allegorical character for the dangers of religious extremism. The Baron is written as a conniving man willing to engage in any kind of depravity and duplicity to advance himself and his family to the point that he would have carried out an overthrowing of the Emperor if not for Paul's climactic attack. Rabban is written as the Barron's bulldog who is desperate to prove he is competent and worthy and increasingly loses his composure the more he fails. Feyd, I already discussed above. The Bene Gesserit are developed well enough as pseudo-mystic string pullers. Irulan is depicted well enough as being dedicated to holding onto power even as she sees the walls closing in around her father. Like I'll grant you that they don't really develop the Emperor much and they could've given him a few more scenes to give us more of what he was about, but past him I'm not really starving to know more about these characters I just discussed than I did after two viewings (trying to assume I never read the book). Even if I lacked the extra context I had from the novel, I didn't feel I needed more from these characters than the roles they served and the purpose they filled.

But like we've both said, it's all subjective. I'm just sharing my perspective when all's said and done. If these things didn't work for you, that's fine.
 
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JetsWillFly4Ever

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Didn't watch Dune 1 until last week then watched Dune 2 on the weekend!

I actually think I liked Dune 1 just as much, maybe it is because I am a sucker for the world-building/story part of movies. Dune 2 was awesome as well though, the theatre experience is great. Definitely worth seeing it on the big screen.

I thought Austin Butler as Feyd Rautha stole every scene he was in, going deeper on his character could have been very interesting.

Chalamet was fantastic as Paul. I wasn't sure how he would do once he was the leader as he seems so boyish but he was convincing.
 

HanSolo

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Watched it a third time, this time with my dad who is very dismissive of Sci fi but he watched Dune 1 and said he liked it. He keeps raving about part 2.

I think it's settled in as one of my favorite blockbuster movies.
I enjoyed it. Although had to go and rewatch the first part before since its been 3 years and I couldn’t remember most of it. Glad I did.

One thing I dont get though is with such advanced technology why do they fight with swords?
The body shields are capable of stopping high velocity projectiles. But Herbert (and Villeneuve by extension) sort of wrote himself into a corner by adding limitations to using shields on Arrakis (the shields attract and enrage the worms worse than ordinary steps or thumping). So while you see some fighting with the laser guns or the thopters shooting those cluster bullets on the Fremen, everyone is still using swords or knives. I guess the idea is that shields rendered projectile based weaponry so inert that everyone was more comfortable/trained in fighting with melee weapons. I think it just came down to Herbert finding it more artful to describe blade fights than page after page of people being shot dead.
 
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Gee Wally

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Watched it a third time, this time with my dad who is very dismissive of Sci fi but he watched Dune 1 and said he liked it. He keeps raving about part 2.

I think it's settled in as one of my favorite blockbuster movies.

The body shields are capable of stopping high velocity projectiles. But Herbert (and Villeneuve by extension) sort of wrote himself into a corner by adding limitations to using shields on Arrakis (the shields attract and enrage the worms worse than ordinary steps or thumping). So while you see some fighting with the laser guns or the thopters shooting those cluster bullets on the Fremen, everyone is still using swords or knives. I guess the idea is that shields rendered projectile based weaponry so inert that everyone was more comfortable/trained in fighting with melee weapons. I think it just came down to Herbert finding it more artful to describe blade fights than page after page of people being shot dead.


Thanks!
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

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Where do we all stand on the Paul as a good vs. bad guy debate?

To me he is not good or bad necessarily. He has been presented with pretty awful options, either let the Harkkonens/Emperor continue to rule and plunder the Fremen's planet, or rise to power and start a Holy War. He resists the power, knowing that the result will be untold amount of casualties, until drinking the Water and giving in to his visions.

Does he make this decision because he wants the power? Does he make the decision because he thinks it is the best option for humanity/the Fremen?

I think it is ambiguous, but a lot of people online are very 'Paul is a bad guy and if you don't get it you are dumb' lol.
 
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Kurtz

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Where do we all stand on the Paul as a good vs. bad guy debate?

To me he is not good or bad necessarily. He has been presented with pretty awful options, either let the Harkkonens/Emperor continue to rule and plunder the Fremen's planet, or rise to power and start a Holy War. He resists the power, knowing that the result will be untold amount of casualties, until drinking the Water and giving in to his visions.

Does he make this decision because he wants the power? Does he make the decision because he thinks it is the best option for humanity/the Fremen?

I think it is ambiguous, but a lot of people online are very 'Paul is a bad guy and if you don't get it you are dumb' lol.

A lot of people online are correct.

Look at it from the standpoint of the other houses. Some random dude just kidnapped your emperor, took control over the most vital resource in the universe and ordered you to obey him or be destroyed.

That's a villain.
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

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A lot of people online are correct.

Look at it from the standpoint of the other houses. Some random dude just kidnapped your emperor, took control over the most vital resource in the universe and ordered you to obey him or be destroyed.

That's a villain.
Just to be clear I’ve only watched the movies so only coming from that perspective.

Ehh that’s fair I suppose. In the movies though the other houses are barely mentioned at all. What is mentioned is that the harkonnen and emperor have oppressed the Fremen, destroyed the Atriedes and don’t seem to be very good people either.

It also shows Paul wrestling with the idea of what he has to do and seemingly trying to avoid the Holy War until the very end. I’m not sure what the other options really were for him that make him out to be a villain for what he did. It seemed like he was trying to find a window to avoid everything until the end.

Anyway , I just think it’s not as clear either way. I don’t think he’s a hero but I don’t think he’s a true villain either.
 
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HanSolo

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Where do we all stand on the Paul as a good vs. bad guy debate?

To me he is not good or bad necessarily. He has been presented with pretty awful options, either let the Harkkonens/Emperor continue to rule and plunder the Fremen's planet, or rise to power and start a Holy War. He resists the power, knowing that the result will be untold amount of casualties, until drinking the Water and giving in to his visions.

Does he make this decision because he wants the power? Does he make the decision because he thinks it is the best option for humanity/the Fremen?

I think it is ambiguous, but a lot of people online are very 'Paul is a bad guy and if you don't get it you are dumb' lol.
I think it's valid to consider him a villain or a villain with intentions towards the greater good of humanity. Either way, I don't think you can consider him a good guy after drinking the water.

As for the way you framed it, either letting the Harkkonens/Corrinos continue to plunder the Fremen's planet or rise to power and start a holy war, I think on its face you can argue that he just needed to fight to gain control of Arrakis back permanently and they could've left the Harkkonens and Corrinos to their own devices without waging galactic war. But that's just me biting my tongue about the first novel and the information I spoiled myself on for later books.

If you're like me and you don't care to wait to find out more I'll cliffnotes it:

It's morally ambiguous. Paul gains prescience through his bene gesserit programming and through the water of life, and from his visions, his galactic jihad isn't just to wrestle control away from oppressors on behalf of the Fremen, but it's--from his interpretation--necessary for the survival of the human race and that could only be accomplished by toppling the Imperium entirely. I didn't read far enough to know that Paul's visions are absolute truth or his subjective interpretation but his holy war leads to billions upon billions of deaths. It's kind of hard to even call him morally gray with that kind of outcome.
 
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Osprey

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The thing is that the other houses and the emperor are villains, themselves, so how things appear from their standpoint doesn't seem very meaningful. Also, fighting back against villains and making them submit is what heroes do, as well.

I agree with JetsWillFly4Ever that he's not a classic hero or a villain. There's a term in between, "antihero," and I think that that fits Paul rather well. He's the "hero" of the story, but his motives and actions may not necessarily seem heroic or even moral.
 

Kurtz

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The thing is that the other houses and the emperor are villains, themselves, so how things appear from their standpoint doesn't seem very meaningful. Also, fighting back against villains and making them submit is what heroes do, as well.

I agree with JetsWillFly4Ever that he's not a classic hero or a villain. There's a term in between, "antihero," and I think that that fits Paul rather well. He's the "hero" of the story, but his motives and actions may not necessarily seem heroic or even moral.

I haven't read the books, and certainly the Harks are classic villains, but are the other houses really villains as well rather than basically just capitalists like House Atreides was?
 

Osprey

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I haven't read the books, and certainly the Harks are classic villains, but are the other houses really villains as well rather than basically just capitalists like House Atreides was?
There are only three houses in the story: House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino, which the emperor and princess belong to. Come to think of it, it's a little like Game of Thrones with its noble House Stark, ambitious House Targaryen and ruling House Lannister, except that the last two team up against the first rather than the first two against the third.
 

TCTC

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Denis Villeneuve simply can do no wrong. Been a huge fan of his since Prisoners/Enemy (not sure which one I saw first) and his work since then has been absolutely flawless. I'm really happy for him that he's arrived in the upper echelon of directors now because that's clearly where he belongs.

This movie was a spectacel in the best sense of the word. Never read the books and don't know a lot about the lore, but this looks like it has the potential to be the best sci-fi trilogy of all time. The Star Wars of our time if you will. Maybe not as gorundbreaking and influential, but more flawless.
 

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You might be mixing events up. She wasn't talking to her mother before Jessica drank the poison. Jessica even tells Paul explicitly that she can hear her daughter speak to her in the first scene after consuming the poison and I don't recall any scenes of them talking before then. Definitely before Paul drinks the poison.

I think for me with Feyd-Rautha, he doesn't really need to be some big all timer of a villain. At the end of the day, Paul is the pseduo villain of the story and Feyd is just an obstacle in his way and an another figure in Paul's revenge story. I'm not so big on Feyd as an iconic villain or anything either, but it's an enjoyable performance to experience.

As for the final battle you ask two things. So first, it's not explained in the movies and barely covered in the books but there are supposed to be sietches that have hidden manufacturing factories for stillsuits and weaponry. I think for purposes of the movie you just kind of have to not think about it too much and assume they get their materials from raids. I think a couple expository lines wouldn't have hurt. As to the second part I think the fact that the combined Sardukar/Harkkonen forces being so comprehensively overwhelmed works for three main reasons: 1 like I mentioned, they weren't expecting an attack on that scale which started with a nuclear strike. Granted you could argue that if the Emperor knew that Paul was still alive, he should have anticipated such a strike was possible. 2. The Emperor/Harkkonens never took the Fremen threat seriously. While they were effective in halting spice production, most of the galaxy could never confirm that there were several million Fremen living in the South. So going to Arrakis with the Emperor's full fighting force, they likely assumed the kind of guerrilla warfare that Paul and his Fremen were involved in would be easily deflected by sheer numbers alone. 3. The attack came as somewhat of a surprise. It happened as the Emperor was receiving the Harkkonens to discuss how to handle Paul but they weren't in the process of preparing for a large scale attack. They were essentially holding court and then out of nowhere they get blitzed by a confluence of a sandstorm, nuclear strike, sandworm attack, and a huge rush of Fremen infantry. I think there's enough context in the movies to establish these three points. The point wasn't to make the Sardukar and Harkkonen forces seem weak, just not expecting the degree of the attack they faced because the Fremen have been routinely misunderestimated as they (presumably) never fought united like that and had just been involved in guerrilla style raids. Paul's attack relied a lot on the Emperor/Harkkonens' hubris and fortuitous opportunism. How Paul coordinates a galactic holy war from that point in fairly short order, I don't know. I only read the first book and maybe there's some details I missed. As for how they got multiple people on the backs of sandworms, I couldn't tell you but it's one of those things where if I intentionally tried to question the logic of every fantastical thing I see in sci-fi for realism, I'd be unable to have fun with any of it.

As for the faithfulness to the adaptation, I mean that kind of gets you into a "can't win" scenario. If they change too much from the books, you have a bunch of die hard fans of the source material upset about creative license. If they stick to the source material too much you have people dissatisfied because they didn't quite get the story they were hoping for. I mean in the first instance, a bunch of Dune fans are upset because Denis dared to--heaven forbid--give Chani more agency and more of a moral compass than she had in the books. Personally I think Denis struck up a good enough balance.

As for more world building and characterization of the plight, I don't think shaving off a few long takes is going to leave you with enough time to flesh the story out the way you seem to be hoping for. I agree that things could have been explored more in depth, but on my end, I got from the movies what I need to consume this story for what it is. An example, the plight of the Rebellion in Star Wars is fairly surface level. You have an evil fascist government shown to be controlling the populations of a huge number of planets occupying a galaxy, but in reality, outside of blowing up a planet, Lucas' original trilogy never really shows any tyranny or how it affects the people of the galaxy. You just have rebels talk about how the Empire needs to be overthrown, a montage of planets celebrating the fall of the Empire, and a lightly developed allusion to the Empire governing Bespin's affairs. But you don't see the suffering of the people, you don't see freedoms being restricted, etc.. As hit or miss as the Disney era has been they did a lot more legwork to demonstrate the subjugation and control of Palpatine's empire than anything Lucas did. And that came after what, 11-12 hours of storytelling from Lucas' era of Star Wars not counting the cartoons? Here, the two films are pretty dense even with a combined runtime of 5 hours +. I agree that there's some corner cutting on the world building but I don't think you could add much more than Denis did without a significantly longer runtime or a three part movie and there's just not enough story for three separate films. For me I enjoyed what I got at face value as the world building was enough for me to get a sense of the stakes. Which is how a lot of people end up enjoying the original star wars films.

As for Paul's ease in ascendancy, again, I don't think it's meant to be a big struggle. The core and heartbeat of the story isn't from rooting for a good guy to overcome incredible hardships and obstacles. Like, to make the Succession analogy again, that's a story of shitty people trying desperately to claw for more power than they need and it's replete with obstacle after obstacle until the end. That works for that story because the spirit of that story is how cutthroat and despicable the corporate world can be and how people will fight for unworthy rewards. Dune is telling a different story. It's not about Paul overcoming big challenges to earn his power. It's far more about how Paul knows the consequences of the path he takes and the tragedy of watching him ignore that knowledge to take that path and become exactly who he was trying not to be, callous exploitation of natives and all. Maybe that's not as compelling a story for you as the traditional tales of heroes and anti-heroes overcoming adversity, but to me I find it a refreshing take on an epic/grand scale story and I would imagine it's why Dune (the novel) has such an enduring legacy to begin with. If you're looking for struggle, it first comes with Paul and Jessica defying all odds and surviving the desert and escaping the Harkkonens in part 1 and in part 2 it's the struggle taken by Paul and Chani for Paul to retain his moral center and identity by not giving into the path of a false messiah. From that perspective, the protagonists lose and lose badly. As for the characterization of the characters around Paul, I think we just have to agree to disagree. The characters got as much characterization that, to me as a viewer, they needed.

There's no heroes here except maybe Chani, Duncan, and Duke Leto. Gurney is devoid of morals once he finds a lust and hunger for revenge. Jessica has no qualms about leveraging the propaganda the Bene Jesserit laid for her son to be a false messiah and is even worse about exploiting these advantages with no moral sensibility than Paul who at least resisted, and she behaves that way because she is hungry to stay in power and get revenge for Leto's death. Stilgar's religious fundamentalism and devotion is so deep that he is ready to be a textbook sycophant for Paul even before Paul turns to the extent that he'd die for and wage genocidal war for his believed messiah. Aside from being comic relief he's written as an allegorical character for the dangers of religious extremism. The Baron is written as a conniving man willing to engage in any kind of depravity and duplicity to advance himself and his family to the point that he would have carried out an overthrowing of the Emperor if not for Paul's climactic attack. Rabban is written as the Barron's bulldog who is desperate to prove he is competent and worthy and increasingly loses his composure the more he fails. Feyd, I already discussed above. The Bene Gesserit are developed well enough as pseudo-mystic string pullers. Irulan is depicted well enough as being dedicated to holding onto power even as she sees the walls closing in around her father. Like I'll grant you that they don't really develop the Emperor much and they could've given him a few more scenes to give us more of what he was about, but past him I'm not really starving to know more about these characters I just discussed than I did after two viewings (trying to assume I never read the book). Even if I lacked the extra context I had from the novel, I didn't feel I needed more from these characters than the roles they served and the purpose they filled.

But like we've both said, it's all subjective. I'm just sharing my perspective when all's said and done. If these things didn't work for you, that's fine.
Excellent post. Not the sort of quality one would expect on a hockey forum but here we are!

Awesome awesome movie. Finally just saw it. I think I’m going to see it again next week in 70mm IMAX. So much to think and process still.

I think Anya Taylor Joy’s casting is a mistake. Her face looks very strange after that absurd procedure (buccal surgery) where they remove the fat in the cheek. She’s a very good actress but her appearance is too distracting.
 

Rabid Ranger

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Where do we all stand on the Paul as a good vs. bad guy debate?

To me he is not good or bad necessarily. He has been presented with pretty awful options, either let the Harkkonens/Emperor continue to rule and plunder the Fremen's planet, or rise to power and start a Holy War. He resists the power, knowing that the result will be untold amount of casualties, until drinking the Water and giving in to his visions.

Does he make this decision because he wants the power? Does he make the decision because he thinks it is the best option for humanity/the Fremen?

I think it is ambiguous, but a lot of people online are very 'Paul is a bad guy and if you don't get it you are dumb' lol.
To me, Paul is well-intentioned but vulnerable. He's the poster child for the adage "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
 

The Macho King

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Where do we all stand on the Paul as a good vs. bad guy debate?

To me he is not good or bad necessarily. He has been presented with pretty awful options, either let the Harkkonens/Emperor continue to rule and plunder the Fremen's planet, or rise to power and start a Holy War. He resists the power, knowing that the result will be untold amount of casualties, until drinking the Water and giving in to his visions.

Does he make this decision because he wants the power? Does he make the decision because he thinks it is the best option for humanity/the Fremen?

I think it is ambiguous, but a lot of people online are very 'Paul is a bad guy and if you don't get it you are dumb' lol.
Paul is the bad guy. Just because the other side is also bad doesn't mean he's not the bad guy. Dude starts a jihad and encourages/embraces the Fremen to have religious faith in him. Message isn't subtle here.
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

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Paul is the bad guy. Just because the other side is also bad doesn't mean he's not the bad guy. Dude starts a jihad and encourages/embraces the Fremen to have religious faith in him. Message isn't subtle here.
Ya I really don't think its that simple though.

You clearly see him resisting the Holy War, telling the Fremen he just wants to be one of them and that he is not the prophet. He only gives in after drinking the Water and seeing all possible futures, and decides that this is the best option. What happens is obviously awful but if he has seen all the futures is it possible it is the least bad? Or is he simply doing it for power? I agree with @HanSolo that there were probably alternatives, by just ruling Arakkis and not waging galactic war.

I didn't read his spoilers though, I just bought the book and want to see if I can get into it enough to read the series haha.
 

The Macho King

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Ya I really don't think its that simple though.

You clearly see him resisting the Holy War, telling the Fremen he just wants to be one of them and that he is not the prophet. He only gives in after drinking the Water and seeing all possible futures, and decides that this is the best option. What happens is obviously awful but if he has seen all the futures is it possible it is the least bad? Or is he simply doing it for power? I agree with @HanSolo that there were probably alternatives, by just ruling Arakkis and not waging galactic war.

I didn't read his spoilers though, I just bought the book and want to see if I can get into it enough to read the series haha.
The book handles it differently, although the prescience is always there. But I also think the prescience is irrelevant to the "goodness" or "badness" of an act. There's always a rationalization behind evil. Every single dictator in history thought they were the ones to guide their chosen population to whatever outcome they thought preferable.

Edit: The end of the series (really book 6 of Herbert and his son's two books finishing off the series) kind of ties a bow on the rationalization, but they're also all terrible so whatever.
 
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The Macho King

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So I actually saw the movie. Liked it but I kind of want to go into some of my thoughts as a guy who loves the books, likes the Lynch version, and wanted to drill down on what this hits and misses with the source material (on it's own merits the movie is great, but as an adaptation there are some stuff which I would call missed opportunities or just decisions that I kind of wish went the other way).

So I think DV's Dune is... afraid? unwilling? isn't interested in? the absolute batshit weirdness of the Dune saga. It's a series where the son of a prescient emperor decides to become a gigantic, nigh-immortal worm to guide humanity into the future. It's a series where the ultimate main character is a guy who dies off screen in the first book but keeps coming back as a clone who continues to die in more and more interesting ways over thousands of years, and defeats the plots of the Bene Gesserit (or their eventual offshoot) by being really good at sex. Despite playing with *some* weirdness, DV's Dune feels way too normal.

Okay he made Geidi Prime and the Harkonnens stylized in interesting ways, and I think he played really well with the visuals of the film. And I don't hate his solution to Alia. But the spice - so central to the books - feels like it could be replaced with unobtanium pretty easily. The lack of the Spacing Guild at the end, using their limited ability to see the future and realize how bent over the barrel Paul had them makes me sad. The lack of digging into just how f***ing weird Mentats are (and that Paul was trained as a Mentat). And the lack of the weirding way.

DV's movie is really good, and it's a consistent vision and honestly getting that budget probably depended on making some trade offs on the weird shit. But I love the weird shit. The weird shit is the best part of Lynch's incredibly flawed adaptation. Honestly the best part of the Dune series is describing the batshit plot to other people when they ask what it's about. And a lot of that is missing and it makes me a little sad.
 

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