Speculation: Duchene trade looking back

[ottomaddox]

The Dion trade was bad for Toronto.
I am sorry but TOR got nothing but flimsy spare parts. They moved Dion's contract. Big deal! The Leafs are still to this day looking for a top 4 to replace Dion.

 

[ottomaddox]

I have to give credit to Sakic's though. No one is talking about him being "the worst GM". All it took was one big move.

 

[hooverdam]

I have to give credit to Sakic's though. No one is talking about him being "the worst GM". All it took was one big move.

I think it's because so many of Sakic's really good, smaller moves were overshadowed by the Duchene situation. He really had a great 2017 starting at that trade deadline. He acquired Andrighetto for AHL fodder, who turned out to be the most productive deadline acquisition in the league. He bought out an anchor in Beauchemin to free up space for his youth movement, and purged all of the trash on the team. He made insanely good waiver pickups that are paying dividends now. Signed Jost, Kerfoot and Toninato out of college; signed Yakupov for peanuts.

And no one cared until November 5th because a Team Canada golden boy was unhappy. Those small moves I listed are how you properly engineer a retool within one calendar year and set yourself up for a good future. Sakic didn't butcher the core and trade good players who wanted to be there just to make examples out of them and get headlines like Chiarelli and Bergevin did. He put his faith in the right players and correctly identified what was wrong with the team and just put his head down and fixed it.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Just so we’re clear....otttawa only gave up this...

Kyle Turris (upcoming UFA)
Andrew Hammond (borderline NHL backup goalie)
Shane Bowers
2018 first-round pick
2019 third-round pick.

None of the players Colorado received were top end. Even when the trade was made the 1st was middling.
Girard is decent but he was never considered an“A” prospect, neither was Kamenev.
This trade is the perfect example of quality for quantity. But imo, I never considered Duchene quality.

If you never considered Duchene quality then by what mechanism is it quality for quantity?

The OP went a little overboard in assessing Avs return. Kamenev might become a 2C some day, or he might bust entirely, for example.

Duchene has 1 year more under contract than Turris does. Turris is the better player so we could call it a saw-off at that point. I'm not sure Hammond is a borderline NHL backup. Borderline AHL backup might be closer. Salary dump. Then there are two 1sts and a 3rd. Ottawa got hosed.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Duchene is a first line center. Not top 10 or even top 15, but still a first line center.

40 points last year, on pace for 40 again this year... you and I have different views on what's a 1st line C I guess.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

The Dion trade was bad for Toronto.
I am sorry but TOR got nothing but flimsy spare parts. They moved Dion's contract. Big deal! The Leafs are still to this day looking for a top 4 to replace Dion.

Nah, they have multiple top 4 in Rielly, Gardiner and Zaitsev (injured).
Meanwhile we got Dion Phaneuf, 3rd pair on 2nd pair for 7 mil a year. For how many more years?
Leafs got Cowen (bought out), a prospect they didn't need and the finished Michalek. And they have all that cap space they will use for their wonder kids. Leafs made out like bandits.

We did okay on the Duchene trade. He's basically Mini-Spetz (Spezza) a guy that will get points when it doesn't matter and looks really flashy, but is a loser. Being that he's a loser, he fits in great with a team that badly, badly needs someone to come in and gut the country club. But that's for another off-season, hopefully...

 

[LaP]

He's a 19 year old defenseman!!! Like how many great Dmen have ever played in the NHL as a teenager?
I love Turris but it still upsets me that they gave up Girard for him.

It could be worse. You could have given Sergachev for Drouin ...

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

It could be worse. You could have given Sergachev for Drouin ...

It was Drouin for Ceci straight up....would have done that in a minute.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I have to give credit to Sakic's though. No one is talking about him being "the worst GM". All it took was one big move.

Sakic has actually done a lot of really solid things over the last 1.5 years with this team now, basically since Roy left for that matter.

The Duchene situation was a issue that had to be resolved in order for Sakic to start getting his dues, and he ended up negotiating his way into an exceptional deal out of that situation.

The Avs playing as well as they are this year obviously makes him look even better(And quite frankly almost like a genius right now), but a lot of Avs fans had recognized for a while that he has been quietly doing the right things this team needed to do in order to get back on track and trending upwards.


Started with some quietly strong Waiver acquisitions last year in Barbeiro and Nieto. Then a sneaky good trade of Martinsen for Andrighetto. Buying out Beauchemin this past summer was likely hard to do but necessary to do. A really strong 2017 draft(After a strong 2015 and decent 2016 draft as well), no awful UFA contracts given out(And 1 great deal with Bernier), a couple really strong college free agent signings with Kerfoot and Toninato, and another really fantastic Waiver acquisition in Nemeth to start the year.


Now, we're a team that's 3rd last in the league for salary spent, with no bad long term contracts on the roster, almost 10M in dead salary coming off the books this summer(Hammond, Colborne, Beauchemin, McCleod), the deepest Defense the organization has had in the last 10, maybe even 15 years in the NHL and organizational depth, and an extra 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick in the upcoming 2 drafts.

Oh yeah, and we've won 9 straight games, and are in a playoff spot 1 year after watching a literal dumpster fire for an entire 82 game season.


Sakic has been brilliant the last 12 months.

 

[Halla]

Duchene has just 13pts in 30 games since the deal, is a -10...and then sens are 18pts behind the leafs for that 3rd playoff spot in the atlantic.

Turris has twice as many pts in the same amount of games and his team looks like a new contender.

so yeah Turris, 1st, 3rd and Bowers for Duchene is beyond awful


hard to believe they gave up a 1st,2nd,3rd and Bowers to go from Turris+Zibanejad to Duchene + Brassard
that is terrible

 

[rent free]

The Dion trade was bad for Toronto.
I am sorry but TOR got nothing but flimsy spare parts. They moved Dion's contract. Big deal! The Leafs are still to this day looking for a top 4 to replace Dion.

the dion trade was anything but bad for toronto. we didn't take on any long term bad contracts in the process and got rid of his entire salary. there was no way toronto was gonna get decent assets for him because of his contract. people were delusional to think we would get good assets in exchange for him. also, having no phaneuf is better than having phaneuf at 7 million.

 

[EscapedGoat]

About his hair, his dogs, his public perception in the local media in a small market, and his country music.

And fishing. Don't forget fishing.

 

[Boud]

Duchene was best when playing with O'Reilly. One of the best two-way C in the NHL.

Duchene is kinda like a Hoffman that can take faceoffs honestly. His shot isn't as good as Hoffman but he's stronger. Duchene is quite simply not a C, he does not play one bit like a C.

In some ways he does remind me a bit of Zibanejad. In Ottawa he had a hard time with his linemates, not a very good passer but he would go to the right areas and had a good shot and was strong. I'm a bit confused as to why we decided to trade Zibanejad only to go for a guy with similar problems. Turris is the only C we had in years that would actually play well with just about anybody. He had stretches where he played well with all of Hoffman, Ryan, MacArthur, Dzingel, Stone. No one on the team played well with all of these guys at some point or another. Brassard has a hard time playing well anytime he's away from Stone, Zibanejad never really had chemistry with anyone on a consistent basis and same for Duchene.

Trading Zibanejad I totally get because even though we knew he had potential, he really wasn't fitting in that well with the guys we had here and I can understand why management might've though Brassard was a better fit (even though he ended up not being that much of a better fit if at all). But trading Turris who was clearly a fit here for Duchene while knowing what kind of player he was makes absolutely no sense.

 

[ottomaddox]

the dion trade was anything but bad for toronto. we didn't take on any long term bad contracts in the process and got rid of his entire salary. there was no way toronto was gonna get decent assets for him because of his contract. people were delusional to think we would get good assets in exchange for him. also, having no phaneuf is better than having phaneuf at 7 million.

I know. You want to balance the budget, but look at what Ottawa did last year. They were one shot/one goal away from a cup series. Dion was part of that success. We have nothing to show for that trade.

 

[rent free]

I know. You want to balance the budget, but look at what Ottawa did last year. They were one shot/one goal away from a cup series. Dion was part of that success. We have nothing to show for that trade.

sure we have nothing, but at least his salary is gone. that's more important that showing something from the trade because the purpose of the trade was to get rid of his contract.

 

[rent free]

Duchene was best when playing with O'Reilly. One of the best two-way C in the NHL.

Duchene is kinda like a Hoffman that can take faceoffs honestly. His shot isn't as good as Hoffman but he's stronger. Duchene is quite simply not a C, he does not play one bit like a C.

In some ways he does remind me a bit of Zibanejad. In Ottawa he had a hard time with his linemates, not a very good passer but he would go to the right areas and had a good shot and was strong. I'm a bit confused as to why we decided to trade Zibanejad only to go for a guy with similar problems. Turris is the only C we had in years that would actually play well with just about anybody. He had stretches where he played well with all of Hoffman, Ryan, MacArthur, Dzingel, Stone. No one on the team played well with all of these guys at some point or another. Brassard has a hard time playing well anytime he's away from Stone, Zibanejad never really had chemistry with anyone on a consistent basis and same for Duchene.

duchene to buffalo it is then.

 

[ottomaddox]

I must admit. I laughed last night hearing Hughson say: "Dion Phaneuf's shot goes way wide and the puck is now out of Toronto's zone." Nothing changes with him.

 

[GoldyNuck]

Arguably the most value that Colorado got out of that trade is removing the locker room cancer, practically kickstarting their surge up the standings, plus Girard is playing great. Unlucky with the Kamenev injury though, hopefully he recovers smoothly. Nashville was always expected to come out with good value, and Turris is playing great with Fiala and Smith, they've been Nash's most consistent line by far. Ottawa gave up way too much for Duchene, and now are in panic mode and have completely screwed up their future and practically booking Karlsson's ticket out of town too. Hopefully they don't screw their Karlsson situation too, but when Melnyk's involved who knows.

 

[Korpse]

Ottawa gave up way too much for Duchene, and now are in panic mode and have completely screwed up their future

There’s no doubt that they paid a significant price but I wouldn’t say they’ve screwed up their future. Obvious it would be nice to have that pick and Bowers moving forward but their prospect pool is in a pretty good spot despite those subtractions. Hell you could argue Batherson and Formenton passed Bowers in the prospect rankings before the NHL regular season even started.

 

[StreetHawk]

There’s no doubt that they paid a significant price but I wouldn’t say they’ve screwed up their future. Obvious it would be nice to have that pick and Bowers moving forward but their prospect pool is in a pretty good spot despite those subtractions. Hell you could argue Batherson and Formenton passed Bowers in the prospect rankings before the NHL regular season even started.

It's more the 1st rounder that the Sens owe the Avs that is the major concern. The Karlsson situation is coming to a head soon, by the draft. Decision time for Karlsson. Ottawa isn't going to keep him going into next season without an extension, ala Tavares.

If they make moves at this TDL that moves out Brassard, Hoffman, etc. what NHL ready talent would be there next season with karlsson? Then, if they move Karlsson, that pick could be a high one without the guys they move at this TDL and Karlsson.

 

[Korpse]

It's more the 1st rounder that the Sens owe the Avs that is the major concern. The Karlsson situation is coming to a head soon, by the draft. Decision time for Karlsson. Ottawa isn't going to keep him going into next season without an extension, ala Tavares.

If they make moves at this TDL that moves out Brassard, Hoffman, etc. what NHL ready talent would be there next season with karlsson? Then, if they move Karlsson, that pick could be a high one without the guys they move at this TDL and Karlsson.

I’m well aware of the current situation and that’s a light year away in HF time. None of that has happened so to say that it’s screwed the future is perplexing. It certainly can create a messy situation but we aren’t at that point yet.

 

[Extra Texture]

This trade looks so bad, now, because (obvious points are obvious)

1. the Sens paid a hefty price to (on paper anyway) "upgrade" from Turris to a player whose stock had fallen in Duchene. As we saw with the contract Turris got, they shipped out a player who was clearly a fit in Ottawa for one with a bit more of a name because Melnyk is cheap. Nothing new there.
2. Clearly the Sens have taken a nosedive. If the Sens could even manage .500 hockey since then, they'd be in the thick of the WC chase.
3. Turris has been a fit right away with a surging Nashville and Sam Girard has walked straight onto the blue line for a resurgent Avs team. Whereas the Sens have slid and for a big stretch of that, Duchene wasn't getting on the scoreboard.

Again, all that is obvious, but my point is at the time the trade went down you had people saying Ottawa probably lost the trade but were getting a good player who was gonna help them push on. There was some derision, yeah, but not a universal feeling they got hosed. It was a gamble, and one the GM was making with a financial pistol pointed at his head re: Turris.

Off the top of my head, in the last five years, I think the Seguin trade, the Erat trade, and the Kessel trade (at least the Pens one, maybe both of them) were worse. They looked like terrible at the time, and they quickly got worse. These deals, too, had mitigating circumstances (Kessel being run out by the media, Erat being somehow seen as a big add for a playoff push, etc). But considering the Sens made this move in part because of a tightwad owner, I feel bad for Dorion and co. At least Duchene and the team are starting to turn it around. Still, when you consider EK and the importance of that guy to their franchise, its a bad sign of things to come. And if he goes or is traded, I'm sure Duchene and Brassard won't be far behind.

 

[S E P H]

Duchene has just 13pts in 30 games since the deal, is a -10...and then sens are 18pts behind the leafs for that 3rd playoff spot in the atlantic.

Turris has twice as many pts in the same amount of games and his team looks like a new contender.

so yeah Turris, 1st, 3rd and Bowers for Duchene is beyond awful


hard to believe they gave up a 1st,2nd,3rd and Bowers to go from Turris+Zibanejad to Duchene + Brassard
that is terrible

Uhhhhhhhhh, what? You're going to have to explain to me how one player makes a team? Especially a team like the Senators who were declining before the trade was even made. Then explain to me how a team who went to the Finals last season is somehow a "new" contender because they got Turris? They were always an amazing team (last season proved that) which got deeper with that addition.

 

[Boud]

duchene to buffalo it is then.

O'Reilly to Ottawa

 

[Mr Zappalanche]

Duchene has just 13pts in 30 games since the deal, is a -10...and then sens are 18pts behind the leafs for that 3rd playoff spot in the atlantic.

Turris has twice as many pts in the same amount of games and his team looks like a new contender.

so yeah Turris, 1st, 3rd and Bowers for Duchene is beyond awful


hard to believe they gave up a 1st,2nd,3rd and Bowers to go from Turris+Zibanejad to Duchene + Brassard
that is terrible

Do you really belive that the Senators would be better with Turris? Both Duchene and Turris are not capable of lifting the team by themself. IMO Duchene is still the better player but not on the expanse of 1st, 3rd and Bowers.