Draft Pick # 8 - Center and LW, William Nylander, Modo, Part 2

[Tyler Biggs*]

It's mgmt's job to fill that need for a 1C. We're waiting and waiting. Hopefully Nylander is it.

 

[Sundinisagod]

There is a fair bit of uncertainty if he goes back to the SHL. At least I have a fair bit of uncertainty about it, I have a few questions/concerns I'm hoping others can clear up?

1) Last year he got bounced around between 3 or 4 teams in Sweden. I'm worried if he signs with higher level team, can they demote him to lower level like Alsvenken (sp wrong fo sho)? Or can the higher level team risk being delegated to a lower level?

2) If he plays on a higher level club, isn't he more likely to placed in a bottom 6 winger role? This team would not be concerned about his development as Maple Leafs prospect as much as they would be winning games and avoiding relegation? What role did Modo use him towards the end where he got things going?

 

[SarcazemKadri]

You're arguing that the SHL is miles ahead of the CHL as a development league, and yet there exists no talent gap between prospects from the SHL and the CHL. Why?



The kid's not just going to be handed ice time. Again, I think "playing against men" is getting a lot more weight than it should beyond proving he can hold his own against larger players.

Answer me some questions:

In which league is hockey played at a higher calibre, SHL or CHL?
Did Nylander display success in the SHL?

If you answered yes to both, why are you arguing?

He has already proven dominance against his peers, as proven through his U18 and WJC showings. Those showings are even higher competition than the CHL would be, so why send him back to that environment?

 

[The Missing Piece]

can someone copy and paste what espn had to say about him. I'm not an insider.

 

[Jack Bauer]

You're arguing that the SHL is miles ahead of the CHL as a development league, and yet there exists no talent gap between prospects from the SHL and the CHL. Why?



The kid's not just going to be handed ice time. Again, I think "playing against men" is getting a lot more weight than it should beyond proving he can hold his own against larger players.

There is no talent gap between prospects is the key term there. There is a huge talent gap, especially on the defensive side of the pick, from the CHL to the SHL.

If Tampa could have sent Drouin to the AHL or SHL last year they never would have sent him back to Halifax. But not being ready for the NHL left them no option.

We have lots of options with Nylander. I bet Winnipeg wishes they had more with Ehlers but again the options for him are Winnipeg or Halifax. No AHL and no European mens league.

If he's talented enough he will get ice time even against bigger and stronger men. That should only help his development.

Going to a league where the oldest players are almost his age compared to a league where he is among the youngest is simply not an option that makes any sense when you look at what he's already done.

Bottom line is we have options are will consider them all but the CHL is only even being discussed because of the team that wasted a 1st rounder on him. It never has been or will be a realistic option for him.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Answer me some questions:

In which league is hockey played at a higher calibre, SHL or CHL?
Did Nylander display success in the SHL?

If you answered yes to both, why are you arguing?

He has already proven dominance against his peers, as proven through his U18 and WJC showings. Those showings are even higher competition than the CHL would be, so why send him back to that environment?

That's open to debate, but stats wise he had 1 g and 6 a in 22 games.
Was successful in the Allsvenkan from a statistical perspective though.

 

[91Stammer*]

That's open to debate, but stats wise he had 1 g and 6 a in 22 games.
Was successful in the Allsvenkan from a statistical perspective though.

That's a good statistics out of a 3rd/4th line rookie player.

 

[FifthLine]

If it were up to me I'd send him to the AHL. That way we have much more control over him, management can keep a close eye on him, and would be able to be called up if he tears it up. SHL would be the 2nd best option, but again, not as much structure and control there. Lastly would be the CHL. It would be a step back and he would dominate. I could see him dominating early, and becoming the egotistical hog he was accused of being before.

 

[91Stammer*]

You're arguing that the SHL is miles ahead of the CHL as a development league, and yet there exists no talent gap between prospects from the SHL and the CHL. Why?



The kid's not just going to be handed ice time. Again, I think "playing against men" is getting a lot more weight than it should beyond proving he can hold his own against larger players.

Yes SHL is miles ahead of CHL in development process. I should remind you that not all the players who are draft eligible play in SHL, but those who actually had been able to stick with SHL team has dominated NHL in a year. They play with former NHL level players so if you just want to ignore their poise playing with an NHL team all those years is way off.

Let me also tell you that Canada is lucky to have generational talent at all positions time to time. So if you make an argument for players like Tavares, Crosby, Doughty, Price; it's not gonna be simple. They learned from NHLers real quick and that's what you call generational talent. Development is a little difference.

 

[7even]

Answer me some questions:

In which league is hockey played at a higher calibre, SHL or CHL?
Did Nylander display success in the SHL?

If you answered yes to both, why are you arguing?

He has already proven dominance against his peers, as proven through his U18 and WJC showings. Those showings are even higher competition than the CHL would be, so why send him back to that environment?

I'm not advocating he be sent to the CHL, I'm saying that as a development league, the SHL doesn't outstrip the CHL. Is the quality of play higher in the SHL? Clearly. But that doesn't mean it doesn't come with it's own particular set of drawbacks for junior players.

The SHL doesn't produce 18 year old players that are any more successful in the NHL than comparable CHL graduates.

Yes SHL is miles ahead of CHL in development process. I should remind you that not all the players who are draft eligible play in SHL, but those who actually had been able to stick with SHL team has dominated NHL in a year. They play with former NHL level players so if you just want to ignore their poise playing with an NHL team all those years is way off.

Let me also tell you that Canada is lucky to have generational talent at all positions time to time. So if you make an argument for players like Tavares, Crosby, Doughty, Price; it's not gonna be simple. They learned from NHLers real quick and that's what you call generational talent. Development is a little difference.

Players drafted out of the SHL and the closest CHLer:

2014: William Nylander v. Haydn Fleury
2013: Elias Lindholm v. Sean Monahan
2012: None
2011: Adam Larsson v. Ryan Strome, Mika Zibanajed v. Mark Scheifele, Jonas Brodin v. Dougie Hamilton, Oscar Klefbom v. Connor Murphy
2010: None
2009: Victor Hedman v. John Tavares, Magnus Pajaarvi Svensson v. Jared Cowen, David Rundblad v. Nick Leddy, Jacob Josefson v. Chris Kreider, Tim Erixon v. Jordan Schroeder, Marcus Johansson v. Jordan Caron

I don't see it.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I was struck by this today. The 2 Leading scorers from the Under 18

William Nylander (C/RW) Sweden U18 7 6 10 16
Axel Holmström (C) Sweden U18 7 3 8 11

196th overall, 2014
Detroit Red Wings

He was ranked much higher. Strange how we missed him.

 

[thewave]

I was struck by this today. The 2 Leading scorers from the Under 18

William Nylander (C/RW) Sweden U18 7 6 10 16
Axel Holmström (C) Sweden U18 7 3 8 11

196th overall, 2014
Detroit Red Wings

He was ranked much higher. Strange how we missed him.

We sent to many picks the other way of course. Just be happy Shans took the legit top 3 guy that somehow fell to us.

There was no debate as a far as I am concerned, we made the absolute right choice.

 

[theIceWookie]

That's a good statistics out of a 3rd/4th line rookie player.

And that is where some of us are saying the argument is open for discussion. Will he be better served playing 3rd line minutes in the SHL, or 1st line minutes in the CHL, if in fact the AHL has been ruled out as an option (that's my preference personally)?

 

[Phaneuffan3]

Answer me some questions:

In which league is hockey played at a higher calibre, SHL or CHL?
Did Nylander display success in the SHL?

If you answered yes to both, why are you arguing?

He has already proven dominance against his peers, as proven through his U18 and WJC showings. Those showings are even higher competition than the CHL would be, so why send him back to that environment?

Your first question is not a yes/no answer

 

[theIceWookie]

Answer me some questions:

In which league is hockey played at a higher calibre, SHL or CHL?
Did Nylander display success in the SHL?

If you answered yes to both, why are you arguing?

He has already proven dominance against his peers, as proven through his U18 and WJC showings. Those showings are even higher competition than the CHL would be, so why send him back to that environment?

Neither of those questions is the correct question to be asking. The better question to be asking, as 7even has said, is which league is better for Nylander's development.

The SHL being a better league does not make it the best place for his development.

 

[TheCLAM]

Neither of those questions is the correct question to be asking. The better question to be asking, as 7even has said, is which league is better for Nylander's development.

The SHL being a better league does not make it the best place for his development.

I think he'd be better off learning the NA style of game. The Marlies seem to be a perennial playoff team, and Nylander could play some big-minutes.

 

[theIceWookie]

I think he'd be better off learning the NA style of game. The Marlies seem to be a perennial playoff team, and Nylander could play some big-minutes.

I like the AHL option best personally, but the contract limit might be an issue. I still think CHL is an interesting option, although maybe not ideal.

Here's an interesting example. Andre Burakovsky played 43 games for Malmo in Allsvenskan prior to being drafted by the Capitals, also played 23 other games in three other leagues that year (J18 Elit and Allsvenskan, and SuperElit). Move over the Otters last year and is likely going to the AHL this year.

Yeah we could talk about the difference in skill, difference in size, the fact that Burakovsky didn't play SHL games while Nylander did etc but it's an example of a player going to the SHL after playing in Sweden on a men's team.

 

[SarcazemKadri]

Neither of those questions is the correct question to be asking. The better question to be asking, as 7even has said, is which league is better for Nylander's development.

The SHL being a better league does not make it the best place for his development.

As expected, you excluded the second part of my post.

Nylander has already shown dominance against the best players in his age group as proven in his international showings. What more does he have to learn by playing against his peers?

He will likely get top ice wherever he goes in the SHL. If they aren't utilizing him at center, its likely because hes better suited as a winger. That is fine with me. It also doesn't mean we can't transition him as a center in the NHL - like so many others have done (Seguin, Mackinnon, Kadri, just off the top of my head)

 

[SarcazemKadri]

I like the AHL option best personally, but the contract limit might be an issue. I still think CHL is an interesting option, although maybe not ideal.

Here's an interesting example. Andre Burakovsky played 43 games for Malmo in Allsvenskan prior to being drafted by the Capitals, also played 23 other games in three other leagues that year (J18 Elit and Allsvenskan, and SuperElit). Move over the Otters last year and is likely going to the AHL this year.

Yeah we could talk about the difference in skill, difference in size, the fact that Burakovsky didn't play SHL games while Nylander did etc but it's an example of a player going to the SHL after playing in Sweden on a men's team.

Burakovsky's development isn't complete, not really a great example. I'd be interested to see if there are any NHL stars that played in a mens league, went to the CHL, then dominated in the NHL.

 

[theIceWookie]

As expected, you excluded the second part of my post.

Nylander has already shown dominance against the best players in his age group as proven in his international showings. What more does he have to learn by playing against his peers?

He will likely get top ice wherever he goes in the SHL. If they aren't utilizing him at center, its likely because hes better suited as a winger. That is fine with me. It also doesn't mean we can't transition him as a center in the NHL - like so many others have done (Seguin, Mackinnon, Kadri, just off the top of my head)

The second part, as in the short term tourneys? Yeah great he's dominated one tourney. That's fantastic but it doesn't mean much. We've seen tons of dominant performances by players at tourney's like that not turn into much.

Not to mention Nylander has never actually been to the World Juniors. He was snubbed last year. He only played in the U18's, against primarily younger players. Great that he dominated but it's only 7 games. Doesn't prove he dominated all his peers, just some of them.

Besides, the single most overlooked fact for developing players is that every player is different. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't make it a bad approach. What more does he have to learn playing against his peers? maybe actually playing against them for a prolonged period of time. Dominating in 7 games where teams haven't figured out how to contain you is a whole lot different than playing 60 odd games against teams and having to play against systems. Dominating for an entire season would be a good step. Getting the chance to go to the U20 WJC would be nice. Playing on North American ice and learning how to dominate in a different environment that has less space to work with. This way he can figure out the timing difference without having to play against much more physical players than he's seen in Sweden. Or getting prolonged exposure at the center spot. Like so many different ways that the CHL could help him develop.

I just don't see how people are so vehemently opposed to this idea of sending him to the CHL. It's not the preferred option but you're acting like it would single handily ruin him, which makes zero sense to me. In fact it's sort of ridiculous that you're so against the idea. There are definitely things he could learn and grow in by spending a year in the CHL and then moving onto the AHL or NHL.

 

[egd27]

I just don't see how people are so vehemently opposed to this idea of sending him to the CHL. It's not the preferred option but you're acting like it would single handily ruin him, which makes zero sense to me. In fact it's sort of ridiculous that you're so against the idea. There are definitely things he could learn and grow in by spending a year in the CHL and then moving onto the AHL or NHL.

Because there are more "bragging rights" to be had if he is playing pro as opposed to the CHL.

I tend to agree with you that the CHL would likely be best.

 

[theIceWookie]

Because there are more "bragging rights" to be had if he is playing pro as opposed to the CHL.

I tend to agree with you that the CHL would likely be best.

To be perfectly honest, I don't actually want him in the CHL. I'd prefer him to be playing in the AHL.

I just don't think that if management decided to have him come over to NA, that the CHL would be the worst option ever.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Because there are more "bragging rights" to be had if he is playing pro as opposed to the CHL.

I tend to agree with you that the CHL would likely be best.

Best for his stats, not best for his development.

I'd say most teams who picked CHL players in the top 10 would love to not have to send them back to play against kids, fact is the NHL and CHL collude to keep the calibre high by agreeing to the NHL or CHL only rule before the overage season for players.

There's no reason a top prospect should have to play a 3rd or 4th season of junior when there are multiple professional avenues available but those kids have no choice.

With Nylander we have 4 options and based on his own play the CHL is 4th out of those 4 right now. What he gains in confidence playing in the CHL he loses in playing a more lazy style against a lower calibre of opponents. Personally I think it's the 2 way game that will keep him from the NHL like almost every teenage Center prospect and that's what will develop more playing against men in the AHL or SHL.

 

[Jack Bauer]

To be perfectly honest, I don't actually want him in the CHL. I'd prefer him to be playing in the AHL.

I just don't think that if management decided to have him come over to NA, that the CHL would be the worst option ever.

Not the worst option ever just the worst of the options he has.

You need to ask yourself what parts of his game are keeping him from the highest level in order to decide where to play his next season.

If you think he needs a 100pt season against teenagers on a mediocre OHL team as I understand it you send him to the OHL.

If you think he needs better competition then the CHL while playing at a higher calibre and are confident in the direction he's been getting you send him back to Sweden.

If you think you want a close eye on his development as a 'near NHL ready' prospect while getting used to the systems of a likely future NHL head coach you keep him in Toronto in the AHL.

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

can someone copy and paste what espn had to say about him. I'm not an insider.

i second this. can someone please do it.