"Draft and Develop" or "All In": What's next for the Jets?

[Buffdog]

Ville and JoMo are the exact same height

 

[surixon]

Mo already has smaller guys in the D line up so I don't understand this comment.
It's not either / or - he likely wants some of both and that's a good approach.

I dont think there is anything wrong with it barring the bigger dmen can actually play hockey. But I suspect we will likely trot out a real poor big player over Heinola once again next year on the second pairing. I simply put dont see a spot for Heinola at the present time given the defensive makeup of the team and Moe's preferences. That was all I was going for. If Samberg is ready he's the type of player Moe will have more use for.

 

[Daximus]

Even star defensemen at that size can get exposed once you get to the 2nd round of the playoffs. And Heinola is a ways away from that still.

All the forwards forechecking and back checking, hard and smart. Forwards that can get to the other team's net. Defense being able to protect the front of your own net. And great goaltending. That's how you win in the playoffs.

We dont need more size or more skill on defense, we need some guys with both. All imo of course.

Yeah if you can have size + skill that's always going to trump just skill. There isn't a defencemen on Vegas under 6'1. Conversely there isn't a defencemen on Tampa under 6'1 either. But that doesn't mean you can't win with small defencemen. Pittsburgh and Chicago did it. More than once too.

 

[surixon]

Yeah if you can have size + skill that's always going to trump just skill. There isn't a defencemen on Vegas under 6'1. Conversely there isn't a defencemen on Tampa under 6'1 either. But that doesn't mean you can't win with small defencemen. Pittsburgh and Chicago did it. More than once too.

As did Washington and LA. Boston and Nashville also made it to the finals with a couple of small dmen as well.

You need a real balanced collection of dmen and if we can get some players with size and have good skill sets well that is optimal but barring that I will take high end skill over big pilon dmen any day of the week.

 

[Daximus]

As did Washington and LA. Boston and Nashville also made it to the finals with a couple of small dmen as well.

You need a real balanced collection of dmen and if we can get some players with size and have good skill sets we'll thatvis optimum but barring that I will take high end skill over big pilon dmen any day of the week.

Same. But I do like the idea of building pairs that compliment each other. A smaller D with a bigger D. One offensive and one defensive minded. I think that's the biggest thing Colorado is missing. They have plenty of D that can jump into the rush and it makes their attack deadly. But when the other teams sets up in their zone their D are helpless against bigger forwards and just got tossed around in front of the net and in the corners leading to sustained zone time and tired D that just can't stay in the play.

 

[surixon]

Same. But I do like the idea of building pairs that compliment each other. A smaller D with a bigger D. One offensive and one defensive minded. I think that's the biggest thing Colorado is missing. They have plenty of D that can jump into the rush and it makes their attack deadly. But when the other teams sets up in their zone their D are helpless against bigger forwards and just got tossed around in front of the net and in the corners leading to sustained zone time and tired D that just can't stay in the play.

I dont have any issue to that strategy if you have the big dmen capable of pulling it off but as we have seen here the last few years if our big dmen stink (Poolman) or are overmatched (Forbert) you are terrible in your end and kill your offense simultaneously as well.

Samberg and Stanley will hopefully be skilled enough to give us two big and physical dmen that you can win with.

 

[Daximus]

I dont have any issue to that strategy if you have the big dmen capable of pulling it off but as we have seen here the last few years if our big dmen stink (Poolman) or are overmatched (Forbert) you are terrible in your end and kill your offense simultaneously as well.

Samberg and Stanley will hopefully be skilled enough to give us two big and physical dmen that you can win with.

Yeah that's the hope. I like the idea of Risto for that reason. He brings the offensive game and physicality. And we know for a fact that Morrissey is capable of playing the shutdown game, it's really actually his bread and butter rather than being relied on generate offence.

Morrissey-Risto (big offensive/small defensive)
Samberg - Pionk (big defensive/small offensive)
Stanley - DeMelo (big defensive/small defensive but both excellent passers and Stanley has some offence in him)

The only major difference is when you factor in Heinola. Then we are likely pairing him up with Pionk or DeMelo. So we have a smaller pairing out there but they can move the puck well. In the playoffs though I'd want to stay away from that. If Heinola can really develop his defensive game than you can pair him with just about anyone left or right side. Even Makar had issues with Vegas' forecheck so it's all about finding that balance. We used to be building a team that could compete with Chicago in the west. But now we have to build a team that can compete with Vegas. Colorado is likely going to adjust and try and find some bigger defensive to complement their smaller ones.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

Randy Jones is a contender. For a team that has had stalwarts such as Mark Flood, Derek Meech, Brent Festerling, Julian Melchiori, Keaton Ellerby, Jay Harrison, Julien Brouillette, Ben Strait and Nelson Nogier all play more than a dozen games for them......some debate is here to be had for sure.

Nelson Nogier never stood out as awful as many of our stellar D-men have.

 

[Daximus]

Nelson Nogier never stood out as awful as many of our stellar D-men have.

Nogier is pretty solid defensively he just has nothing to give after his own blueline.

 

[surixon]

Yeah that's the hope. I like the idea of Risto for that reason. He brings the offensive game and physicality. And we know for a fact that Morrissey is capable of playing the shutdown game, it's really actually his bread and butter rather than being relied on generate offence.

Morrissey-Risto (big offensive/small defensive)
Samberg - Pionk (big defensive/small offensive)
Stanley - DeMelo (big defensive/small defensive but both excellent passers and Stanley has some offence in him)

The only major difference is when you factor in Heinola. Then we are likely pairing him up with Pionk or DeMelo. So we have a smaller pairing out there but they can move the puck well. In the playoffs though I'd want to stay away from that. If Heinola can really develop his defensive game than you can pair him with just about anyone left or right side. Even Makar had issues with Vegas' forecheck so it's all about finding that balance. We used to be building a team that could compete with Chicago in the west. But now we have to build a team that can compete with Vegas. Colorado is likely going to adjust and try and find some bigger defensive to complement their smaller ones.

Yeah Morrisey when he broke in did real well with bigger puck rushing dmen of various ability which is why Risto would be a target for me as well.

Having said that I hope we don't go back into rigid roles on pairings as I feel that is one of the main reasons we are where we are as an org today. We put players like Conner, Morrissey, Scheifele etc into specific roles and the result of that was a number of one way players who excelled in such a narrow focus.

Morrissey wasn't put into a spot to really develop his offensive capabilities and struggled to continue defending at a high level while trying to drive offense once we lost that offensive driving from our back end. Scheifele and Conner never really needed to focus on their defense and they have gotten crushed a lot in terms of metrics the last two years when our defense took a hit.

In a cap league you need well rounded players that can do different things as when you loose certain roster capabilities through the cap and attrition you have some players who have built those capabilities into their games and can pick up some slack.

I dont want Morrissey going back into a pure defensive dmen I want him to be the player he was against Edmonton where it looked like he had figured it all out and was an impact driver at both ends of the rink. I want Scheifele and Conner to be solid defensive and zone exit players as that will help them with their offense.

I dont mind if on our top lines and pairings if one player is a bit more inclined to be offensive, defensive, be the trigger man, drive play but I want to see our players encouraged to push out the boundaries of their games and be as rounded as possible.

Clearly certain players have more capacity then others but everyone can become more rounded to a certain degree.

 

[Daximus]

Yeah Morrisey when he broke in did real well with bigger puck rushing dmen of various ability which is why Risto would be a target for me as well.

Having said that I hope we don't go back into rigid roles on pairings as I feel that is one of the main reasons we are where we are as an org today. We put players like Conner, Morrissey, Scheifele etc into specific roles and the result of that was a number of one way players who excelled in such a narrow focus.

Morrissey wasn't put into a spot to really develop his offensive capabilities and struggled to continue defending at a high level while trying to drive offense once we lost that offensive driving from our back end. Scheifele and Conner never really needed to focus on their defense and they have gotten crushed a lot in terms of metrics the last two years when our defense took a hit.

In a cap league you need well rounded players that can do different things as when you loose certain roster capabilities through the cap and attrition you have some players who have built those capabilities into their games and can pick up some slack.

I dont want Morrissey going back into a pure defensive dmen I want him to be the player he was against Edmonton where it looked like he had figured it all out and was an impact driver at both ends of the rink. I want Scheifele and Conner to be solid defensive and zone exit players as that will help them with their offense.

I dont mind if on our top lines and pairings if one player is a bit more inclined to be offensive, defensive, be the trigger man, drive play but I don't to see players encouraged to ouch the boundaries of their games and be as rounded as possible.

Clearly certain players have more capacity then others but everyone can become more rounded to a certain degree.

Oh for sure. In no way am I saying that Morrissey should just sit back all the time and be a pure shutdown guy. He wasn't even completely like that with Buff or Trouba. In that 2018 playoff run we were activating everyone but we could because we were comfortable. Trouba, Morrissey, Buff, Myers and Chiarot all jumped into the play. Getting back to doing that is the ideal way to play. You watch Vegas and their D are always jumping into the play. Their D activating was a big reason they won last night. Same as Colorado and Tampa their defence is always jumping into the play. You have to have that in the modern NHL or you aren't going to get very far. Montreal doesn't really have that and neither do we really at this point. So now MTL has hit a team that all 5 guys on the ice are instantly thinking offence when they get possession and they have a much tougher time stopping it.

 

[surixon]

Oh for sure. In no way am I saying that Morrissey should just sit back all the time and be a pure shutdown guy. He wasn't even completely like that with Buff or Trouba. In that 2018 playoff run we were activating everyone but we could because we were comfortable. Trouba, Morrissey, Buff, Myers and Chiarot all jumped into the play. Getting back to doing that is the ideal way to play. You watch Vegas and their D are always jumping into the play. Their D activating was a big reason they won last night. Same as Colorado and Tampa their defence is always jumping into the play. You have to have that in the modern NHL or you aren't going to get very far. Montreal doesn't really have that and neither do we really at this point. So now MTL has hit a team that all 5 guys on the ice are instantly thinking offence when they get possession and they have a much tougher time stopping it.

I completely agree. One of the reasons why our offensive chance generation hasn't been that good is due to holding our defense back and not using 5 man unit attacks when we get possession in the offensive end. It's real easy to defend us right now with our very basic 3 man down low cycle.

I want to get back to where we have the personnel where hopefully our coaching staff feel confident to really up the aggression of our dmen in our attack. I think doing so will also bring out more in a number of our forwards.

 

[Daximus]

I completely agree. One of the reasons why our offensive chance generation hasn't been that good is due to holding our defense back and not using 5 man unit attacks when we get possession in the offensive end. It's real easy to defend us right now with our very basic 3 man down low cycle.

I want to get back to where we have the personnel where hopefully our coaching staff feel confident to really up the aggression of our dmen in our attack. I think doing so will also bring out more in a number of our forwards.

Yeah that's why I like the Risto/Dumba idea. I just have a feeling that Minny isn't going to be very receptive to giving us Dumba and having to suffer the consequences of that action every season and likely in the playoffs. Risto is probably going to be much easier to acquire and his next contract won't be very big. Risto obviously has the offensive game down and I think we can point him in the right direction as to when to activate and how to make the right plays. And we won't be using him in the same way Buffalo uses him. He won't be a #1 all situations kind of guy. We will use himn in the same way Carolina used Hamilton. Mostly slanted towards the offensive zone, PP and very little PK time.

 

[Flair Hay]

Yeah that's the hope. I like the idea of Risto for that reason. He brings the offensive game and physicality. And we know for a fact that Morrissey is capable of playing the shutdown game, it's really actually his bread and butter rather than being relied on generate offence.

Morrissey-Risto (big offensive/small defensive)
Samberg - Pionk (big defensive/small offensive)
Stanley - DeMelo (big defensive/small defensive but both excellent passers and Stanley has some offence in him)

The only major difference is when you factor in Heinola. Then we are likely pairing him up with Pionk or DeMelo. So we have a smaller pairing out there but they can move the puck well. In the playoffs though I'd want to stay away from that. If Heinola can really develop his defensive game than you can pair him with just about anyone left or right side. Even Makar had issues with Vegas' forecheck so it's all about finding that balance. We used to be building a team that could compete with Chicago in the west. But now we have to build a team that can compete with Vegas. Colorado is likely going to adjust and try and find some bigger defensive to complement their smaller ones.

Good post. You are hitting on an issue not enough people are realizing imo

We dont have any room for another undersized defenseman in our top four

Risto would be alright but that's more of a two or three year stop gap that can be a plus player on the 3rd pair

There is a reason Maurice named Samberg as one of the guys it will be tough for Ville to beat out... we all know Maurice (and most coaches) will want a guy with size playing with Pionk

Heinola is in serious jeopardy of being the next Roslovic of our defense. Blocked by better players for key roles, coach wants reliable veterans with special teams experience for support roles.

I can't be the only one that sees where this is headed...

 

[Daximus]

Good post. You are hitting on an issue not enough people are realizing imo

We dont have any room for another undersized defenseman in our top four

Risto would be alright but that's more of a two or three year stop gap that can be a plus player on the 3rd pair

There is a reason Maurice named Samberg as one of the guys it will be tough for Ville to beat out... we all know Maurice (and most coaches) will want a guy with size playing with Pionk

Heinola is in serious jeopardy of being the next Roslovic of our defense. Blocked by better players for key roles, coach wants reliable veterans with special teams experience for support roles.

I can't be the only one that sees where this is headed...

I think there is a spot for Heinola next to Stanley or Samberg. We know Samberg can play the right side and Ville can too. So if things shake out a certain way it could end up being..

Morrissey - Acquisition/DeMelo
Stanley - Pionk
Heinola - Samberg

Or

Samberg - Pionk
Stanley - Heinola

DeMelo can just act as our stop gap vet while Heinola filters in and then eventually Heinola moves where he's most effective to be used.

 

[Flair Hay]

I think there is a spot for Heinola next to Stanley or Samberg. We know Samberg can play the right side and Ville can too. So if things shake out a certain way it could end up being..

Morrissey - Acquisition/DeMelo
Stanley - Pionk
Heinola - Samberg

Or

Samberg - Pionk
Stanley - Heinola

DeMelo can just act as our stop gap vet while Heinola filters in and then eventually Heinola moves where he's most effective to be used.

With Maurice saying it would be doing him a disservice to make him learn his off side... I'm going to remain real skeptical Maurice would ever throw two young defensemen out together. Let alone on a 3rd pair.

The more and more I think about this, the more I think Heinola is the piece that doesnt quite fit with our puzzle. Maybe in 2-3 years?

He is looking at 4th on the LD depth chart with all three guys ahead of him going nowhere

Dax, I remember you saying we may be looking for a pre or post expansion draft trade for someone. If we are targetting a top pair D from a team set to lose one, this is the guy we should move to do it. A top pick who is exempt from the expansion draft.

Ville for Dumba, who says no...

 

[Daximus]

With Maurice saying it would be doing him a disservice to make him learn his off side... I'm going to remain real skeptical Maurice would ever throw two young defensemen out together. Let alone on a 3rd pair.

The more and more I think about this, the more I think Heinola is the piece that doesnt quite fit with our puzzle. Maybe in 2-3 years?

He is looking at 4th on the LD depth chart with all three guys ahead of him going nowhere

Dax, I remember you saying we may be looking for a pre or post expansion draft trade for someone. If we are targetting a top pair D from a team set to lose one, this is the guy we should move to do it. A top pick who is exempt from the expansion draft.

Ville for Dumba, who says no...

Interesting proposal. I think Minny is into that idea but we are then also likely losing DeMelo if we protect 7 and 3 as we definitely go Morrissey, Dumba, Pionk. So in a weird round about way it's Heinola and DeMelo for Dumba.

If we go 4 and 4 we protect Wheeler, Scheif, Ehlers, Connor, Morrissey, Dumba, Pionk, DeMelo and we likely lose Dubois or Lowry. Given what we gave up to get Dubois and how much the fanbase and org loves Lowry I don't think that will happen.

 

[Mud Turtle]

I don’t see the category I want…

“Start using our young talented players thatwe already have and get rid of the plugs.

 

[Neuf]

I don’t see the category I want…

“Start using our young talented players thatwe already have and get rid of the plugs.

Had the same thought:

I mean, could also just play the guys they drafted. We just force fed one of the better defensemen in the org popcorn for a season instead of letting him play hockey...

So develop? Or draft, develop, deploy?

 

[Huffer]

With Maurice saying it would be doing him a disservice to make him learn his off side... I'm going to remain real skeptical Maurice would ever throw two young defensemen out together. Let alone on a 3rd pair.

The more and more I think about this, the more I think Heinola is the piece that doesnt quite fit with our puzzle. Maybe in 2-3 years?

He is looking at 4th on the LD depth chart with all three guys ahead of him going nowhere

Dax, I remember you saying we may be looking for a pre or post expansion draft trade for someone. If we are targetting a top pair D from a team set to lose one, this is the guy we should move to do it. A top pick who is exempt from the expansion draft.

Ville for Dumba, who says no...

0 chance I'd move 7 years of Heinola, with 3 of those being on an ELC for 2 years of Dumba at 6 million.

 

[Daximus]

0 chance I'd move 7 years of Heinola, with 3 of those being on an ELC for 2 years of Dumba at 6 million.

Yeah that's a big factor too. Hard to see Dumba sign here long term but he is from Regina so he's no stranger to the prairies.

 

[Flair Hay]

Interesting proposal. I think Minny is into that idea but we are then also likely losing DeMelo if we protect 7 and 3 as we definitely go Morrissey, Dumba, Pionk. So in a weird round about way it's Heinola and DeMelo for Dumba.

If we go 4 and 4 we protect Wheeler, Scheif, Ehlers, Connor, Morrissey, Dumba, Pionk, DeMelo and we likely lose Dubois or Lowry. Given what we gave up to get Dubois and how much the fanbase and org loves Lowry I don't think that will happen.

Perhaps if we can bring in Dumba... that's where we bust out the old grease Seattle's wheels to leave us along we did last time

Our 1st for a 2nd of theirs and they leave us alone

 

[Flair Hay]

0 chance I'd move 7 years of Heinola, with 3 of those being on an ELC for 2 years of Dumba at 6 million.

I can understand that. Not sure I agree though

Dumba has turned it a really great all around defenseman from what I've watched of him. He stuck out in a great way in their series with Vegas.

This is a 2 years of a top pairing guy on a potential contender for 7 years of a prospect who could potentially be top pair one day in a few years

 

[Daximus]

Perhaps if we can bring in Dumba... that's where we bust out the old grease Seattle's wheels to leave us along we did last time

Our 1st for a 2nd of theirs and they leave us alone

I don't think it will be as worth it for them this time if we go that route. What would you rather have a 18th overall pick or one of Dubois and Lowry who are likely going to be one of the best centers on your team? We'd really realllly have to sweeten the pot to get them to stay away from either of them. I'm guessing like Copp, 18th overall and potentially more. and then at that point we are giving up quite a bit just to get Dumba.

 

[Buffdog]

If you want Dumba, I think it will either have to be via Seattle taking him if he's exposed or a futures package to Minny pre-XD (they have issues with their NMC's) and some deal in place for Seattle to take either Appleton or Stanley with sweetener.

Maybe the deal is agreeing to leaving Copp exposed if Seattle turns and deals us Dumba for a 4th or something like that

Jomo Dumba
Ville Pionk
Samberg/Stanly De Melo

I'm also eying the logjam on LHD long term and wondering what the Olay is if nobody flips to the right side.