Player Discussion Dougie Hamilton

[Calculon]

This usage of Dougie as a "#5" has only been happening this year, as Dougie was pretty consistently on our second pairing under Hartley.

Nope.

The Doghouse of Hartley is legendary in it's infamy. No man who dared to enter has ever been seen again, save one.

 

[Lunatik]

\His average TOI/GP doesn't prove anything except the average over a season, especially when 2 guys ahead of him only played 51 games. Hamilton was consistently the 3-4 after he got his **** together. He was also 4th in ES TOI/GP, which says more about where he was played than overall since he doesn't really kill penalties.

But those are just facts, I don't suspect that will make much of a difference.

 

[Calculon]

Fact: Hamilton was 5th in TOI/GP but that doesn't count because reasons

Fact: Hamilton EV/TOI was only bumped up after Russell was traded and Wideman was suspended/injured but discount that because narrative

Fact: Hartley had Hamilton low on the depth chart but forget that because the cult of Hartley will never die

 

[Lunatik]

Fact: Hamilton was 5th in TOI/GP but that doesn't count because reasons

Fact: Hamilton EV/TOI was only bumped up after Russell was traded and Wideman was suspended/injured but discount that because narrative

Fact: Hartley had Hamilton low on the depth chart but forget that because the cult of Hartley will never die

He played with Russell much of the time. You really need to learn the difference between fact and fiction

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Fact: Hamilton was 5th in TOI/GP but that doesn't count because reasons

Fact: Hamilton EV/TOI was only bumped up after Russell was traded and Wideman was suspended/injured but discount that because narrative

Fact: Hartley had Hamilton low on the depth chart but forget that because the cult of Hartley will never die

And yet he still have how many points last season?

I'm not disagreeing with the facts you are stating, just saying that his ice time is not the be all end all to decide how well he played. Hartley played guys weird ice times.

Hamilton also not getting much PK time (and less PP time than Wideman) also contributed to his overall time on ice, which I know isn't what your stats are based off of.

I'm not honestly sure why he's not getting more ice time this year. I've been quite happy with him for the most part. Few mistakes, but no more than Gio or Brodie have had, and he's had way more snarl than previous years, albeit in a small sample size so far.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

He played with Russell much of the time. You really need to learn the difference between fact and fiction

Funny, I didn't remember it that way so I double checked. You are right. Russell was his most common linemate at 43.2%. And that's with Russell being traded.

And while you can VERY easily argue that Wideman's suspension might have changed the fact, Hamilton did play 3rd most minutes overall last season on the Flames.

 

[Lunatik]

Funny, I didn't remember it that way so I double checked. You are right. Russell was his most common linemate at 43.2%. And that's with Russell being traded.

And while you can VERY easily argue that Wideman's suspension might have changed the fact, Hamilton did play 3rd most minutes overall last season on the Flames.

Wideman was playing with Engelland before Russell was traded. Wideman's suspension and subsequent injury overlapped with Russell's departure greatly.

I think it is obvious to anyone not trying to prove their own narrative that Hamilton was the Flames #4 last year and after the Russell trade the #3.

 

[Calculon]

And yet he still have how many points last season?

I'm not disagreeing with the facts you are stating, just saying that his ice time is not the be all end all to decide how well he played. Hartley played guys weird ice times.

Hamilton also not getting much PK time (and less PP time than Wideman) also contributed to his overall time on ice, which I know isn't what your stats are based off of.

I'm not honestly sure why he's not getting more ice time this year. I've been quite happy with him for the most part. Few mistakes, but no more than Gio or Brodie have had, and he's had way more snarl than previous years, albeit in a small sample size so far.

There's no question he's a good offensive defenceman. And my earlier comment wasn't suggesting Hamilton deserved to be playing less, just that two successive coaching regimes have done so (one of my many complaints about Hartley last year was his handling of Hamilton).

And I agree, Hamilton has been good for the majority of this season.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

The Hamilton hate on Hf all of a sudden is unreal. It's like Bruins fans after the trade.

No idea why Hamilton didn't play more last year, I thought after 20 games he was excellent for us. This year he's been our best so far.

 

[Anglesmith]

I don't think there's Hamilton hate on this board. When I complain about his play, I always feel like I'm in the minority. That said, I don't hate him at all. I am just being impatient and wanting his weaknesses to be addressed sooner than later.

Regardless, I don't think Hamilton's ice time last season was a "doghouse" thing. He plainly struggled in the tough assignment of top line responsibility early in the season, and was gradually moved down the pecking order until he looked comfortable. He really started to play consistently while on the third pairing, and it was working well for us. I think the one thing you're probably frustrated at, Calculon, is the lack of PP time for him when Wideman was having such a terrible time of it. And that's probably fair, but I still think that the 5-on-5 distribution of responsibility was the right idea last year.

This year, again, Hamilton just hasn't been trustworthy enough to put up against the tough matchups. I think what you're saying makes sense, Calculon. If we don't trust him enough to have him playing up in a spot that makes sense with his contract by next year, we may as well see if someone else sees him in that kind of spot and we can recoup value. But I think (hope) he will get there by the end of this season or the start of the next one.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

When Hamilton has the puck in the offensive zone, he is fantastic at spreading the puck around and his shot is a great weapon to have
. I love how he moves the puck out of our zone, his size is a good asset and he's playing with more of an edge. He's made mistakes, but others have been worse but I feel the good he's done has been better than anyone else's good.

 

[Anglesmith]

When Hamilton has the puck in the offensive zone, he is fantastic at spreading the puck around and his shot is a great weapon to have
. I love how he moves the puck out of our zone, his size is a good asset and he's playing with more of an edge. He's made mistakes, but others have been worse but I feel the good he's done has been better than anyone else's good.

Offensively, I would say Dougie is an above average skater with the puck on the rush, but in offensive possessions, I find he lacks the agility and quick hands at this point to really put the defence on their heels. He may be a good passer and a good shooter, but he tends to take too long in pass receptions to put either on display. At this point, he seems to need that extra bit of time to make a play, and when teams don't give that to him, he ends up having to throw the puck to a safe place. Kris Russell, in my opinion, was better at the offensive zone possession part of the game, because he could change directions quickly and elude checks (of course, he was much worse at the transition game). That's my evaluation, anyway.

My main hope with Dougie is that that part of his game sees improvement. I think his defensive game is currently quite good, though he does seem to take a few careless penalties. If he can become a bit more of a threat on the offensive blueline, I think he'll be a stud.

 

[marbsarebad]

The Hamilton hate on Hf all of a sudden is unreal. It's like Bruins fans after the trade.

No idea why Hamilton didn't play more last year, I thought after 20 games he was excellent for us. This year he's been our best so far.

Uhhh, Gio has been our best so far. AINEC.

 

[YourAverageFan*]

Uhhh, Gio has been our best so far. AINEC.

Uhh... I would like to have what you're having. Gio has been one of our worst players this season so far. Yea, he's putting up points but he's been terrible defensively and he's looked like a pylon on numerous occasions. Not to mention all the terrible penalties he's taken

 

[Lunatik]

Uhhh, Gio has been our best so far. AINEC.

What? Giordano was terrible in several games and looked bad in others. He never really looked good until the game against Chicago.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

Uhhh, Gio has been our best so far. AINEC.

Yep, and Wideman was our MVP last season when we made the conference finals.

 

[Anglesmith]

Yep, and Wideman was our MVP last season when we made the conference finals.

Okay, first of all, we didn't make the conference last year. Second of all, Wideman had a terrible year last year. Third of all, the year we made the conference semi-final, our best defenceman, by a mile, was TJ Brodie. Wideman was great offensively, and so-so defensively. TJ Brodie was a game changer all over the ice.

 

[Lunatik]

Okay, first of all, we didn't make the conference last year. Second of all, Wideman had a terrible year last year. Third of all, the year we made the conference final, our best defenceman, by a mile, was TJ Brodie. Wideman was great offensively, and so-so defensively. TJ Brodie was a game changer all over the ice.

We haven't made the Conference Final since Regehr was our #1 D. The dude was being sarcastic, he's saying Giordano has not been good this year.

 

[Anglesmith]

We haven't made the Conference Final since MacInnis was our #1 D. The dude was being sarcastic, he's saying Giordano has not been good this year.

Hmm. Damn thing's broken again.

 

[Lunatik]

Hmm. Damn thing's broken again.

haha, I just edited that video in and fixed my post since we made the conference finals in 04

 

[Dertell]

I don't think there's Hamilton hate on this board. When I complain about his play, I always feel like I'm in the minority.

Welcome to my world when I hear about how hated Russell, Hartley and Engelland are or were.

Regardless, I don't think Hamilton's ice time last season was a "doghouse" thing. He plainly struggled in the tough assignment of top line responsibility early in the season, and was gradually moved down the pecking order until he looked comfortable. He really started to play consistently while on the third pairing, and it was working well for us. I think the one thing you're probably frustrated at, Calculon, is the lack of PP time for him when Wideman was having such a terrible time of it. And that's probably fair, but I still think that the 5-on-5 distribution of responsibility was the right idea last year.

The problem with this argument is Giordano and Russell were struggling massively to start the season last year for arguably a longer amount of time in tough assignments yet, if anything, were progressively given more ES ice-time during that time. Brodie and Engelland also struggled (although not to the same extent) during the last quarter and half respectively in their roles, yet no drop in TOI. Hamilton played, like, three or four games on the third pairing with Smid / Engelland. He played more minutes in the first pair with Brodie / Giordano in the later part of the season, where he performed well. Didn't stop Hartley from demoting him when he could. Point being, unlike the other vets, Hamilton was "punished" for cold streaks, never "rewarded" for his hot streaks.

He's the not the only one with this kind of problem. Kulak was easily the best defensemen in his three games this season. Didn't stop GG from throwing him back to the press box. I could say the same about his performance last year albeit to a lesser extent.

Of course, YMMV on what constitutes good or bad performance, so whether someone is in the doghouse depends on your opinions of the players. Tough to argue when the others run on different assumptions.

 

[Calculon]

This year, again, Hamilton just hasn't been trustworthy enough to put up against the tough matchups. I think what you're saying makes sense, Calculon. If we don't trust him enough to have him playing up in a spot that makes sense with his contract by next year, we may as well see if someone else sees him in that kind of spot and we can recoup value. But I think (hope) he will get there by the end of this season or the start of the next one.

Yup, that's what it pretty much boils down to.

If the Flames don't trust Hamilton to be anything more than a bottom pairing PP specialist, then they should look at recouping value as one of Andersson/Kylington/free agent signing could fill that role at a fraction of the cap hit.

Hamilton has been fairly decent to start the year though. Some giveaways/poor defensive plays but that's nothing unusual. So, it does seem like more of a trust issue on the Flames' end than Hamilton evolving to the next stage, since I don't see him becoming a number one defencemen with a solid all around game.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

I don't think there's Hamilton hate on this board. When I complain about his play, I always feel like I'm in the minority.

Okay, I feel I should clarify. I meant on the trade boards. Much like the Johnny situation, tons of people spouting things in hivemind fashion that just isn't true.

As for in this board, I disagree with things some people say about some players (Hamilton, Kulak, etc) but I at least see it as structured and reasoned. It's not all 'well we heard dougie was bad for 10 games to start last year, and the Flames let in a lot of goals, so I guess it's his fault and he sucks'

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Yup, that's what it pretty much boils down to.

If the Flames don't trust Hamilton to be anything more than a bottom pairing PP specialist, then they should look at recouping value as one of Andersson/Kylington/free agent signing could fill that role at a fraction of the cap hit.

Hamilton has been fairly decent to start the year though. Some giveaways/poor defensive plays but that's nothing unusual. So, it does seem like more of a trust issue on the Flames' end than Hamilton evolving to the next stage, since I don't see him becoming a number one defencemen with a solid all around game.

I'm one of those guys who doesn't even truly believe that every team has a true #1 guy.

Hamilton I think is at worst a #4 (I think he's close to a 3) right now, and has the potential to be a solid #2/3 guy. Definitely still a valuable piece to have.

 

[SKRusty]

Offensively, I would say Dougie is an above average skater with the puck on the rush, but in offensive possessions, I find he lacks the agility and quick hands at this point to really put the defence on their heels. He may be a good passer and a good shooter, but he tends to take too long in pass receptions to put either on display. At this point, he seems to need that extra bit of time to make a play, and when teams don't give that to him, he ends up having to throw the puck to a safe place. Kris Russell, in my opinion, was better at the offensive zone possession part of the game, because he could change directions quickly and elude checks (of course, he was much worse at the transition game). That's my evaluation, anyway.

My main hope with Dougie is that that part of his game sees improvement. I think his defensive game is currently quite good, though he does seem to take a few careless penalties. If he can become a bit more of a threat on the offensive blueline, I think he'll be a stud.

Everybody is welcome to have their opinions but to put things in context. With the exceptions of the Ekblads and Doughty's of the world few NHL D-men come close to their potential until their late 20's. Dougie is 23 years old and now is playing under his 3rd head coach. Younger guys take longer to adjust typically and this is true of Dougie.

Treliving traded for Dougie because at worst his potential is a #2 d-man and quite likely is the heir apparent to Gio. TJ will always skate better and pass better but Dougie has the size, shot, and skill to be an elite level NHL D-man.

Dougie will be a monster and the only way Treliving trades Dougie is if the return is so massive the club can't say no. These rumors out there are all based on the speculation of 1 GM that has inquired as to what the cost would be.

It is very unlikely any team would meet Treliving's ask.