Discussion: Coach Willie Desjardins | V

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VanJack

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Jul 11, 2014
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i have never seriously second guessed willie. but giving bo no offensive role and plumber wingers is going to cost him his job quickly. it is misusing a player and risking major player damage. oilers level dumb.

on the bright side it means he will line match...

Wow!....have never heard anyone say that before....a team that annually leads the league in too many men on the ice penalties; can't get the line match-ups it wants or needs; led the league by a wide margin last year in third period meltdowns; and never figured out three-on-three overtime until halfway through the season; and somehow the coach doesn't share in any blame? Only consolation is that this year Bartkowski won't be out there in the last minute trying to protect a tie or a lead, and Willie will be forced to use Markstrom when Miller craps the bed.:shakehead
 

Eternalize

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I see what Willie is trying to do. Guys like Granlund and Baertschi are basically top6 players or bust. Meanwhile, guys like Sutter and Horvat can basically play anywhere in the line-up, either in the top6 or in the bottom 6, their game won't get too affected. And if you want a shutdown-line, it makes sense to put a guy like that with grinders such as Burrows and Dorsett. It doesn't make it right though.

Horvat had the 3rd highest amount of points on our team last year at the age of 20. The only offensive addition we've made this summer that's worth speaking of is Eriksson, and he's not even a center. Sutter is obviously returning from his injury, and i guess you could say that he's equal with Horvat, so if he ends up playing with better linemates it's not that strange. But everyone knows there's more to Horvats game, he's got the potential to get better, as there's really not anything special about Sutter. Putting Horvat with 2 guys that might not even hit 20 points each, yeah that's definitely beyond ****ing stupid. And in a worst case scenario, it could potentially ruin his development.

The Canucks are really shooting themselves in the foot if they truly believe that this team can be a playoff team if they're gonna play their best young player with 2 players that basically doesn't know what offense is. (I obviousy like Burrows for previous contributions) Our young guys need to bring their BEST and take a HUGE step in development if this team is gonna be a playoff team this year. That won't happen if you play them on a 4th line.

Again i do get what Willie is thinking. Or i would have if they had someone better than Markus ****ing Granlund to replace Horvat with!! This is hardly news, but you kinda get the feeling that management are trying to make their horrible moves look better by giving the new additions benefits. Granlund just isn't a fit here, the guy isn't good enough for a top6 role and he doesn't really do anything in a bottom6 role, yet here he is. And Virtanen should be in the AHL rather than in the NHL, but he isn't because of his draft status and the fact that players taken lower than him in the draft are currently outperforming him.



Yeah, i do feel bad for Horvat.
 
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biturbo19

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On the one hand, this is classic Botchford trash. Take something, twist it around and spin it into an attention grabbing hyperbole of a headline.

I think there is something to the idea that they want Horvat to concentrate on building himself into the two-way "Bergeron type" he was drafted to hopefully become. He should be able to eventually do both. There's some salient point nestled into the twisted WillieD logic somewhere there.

Let's be frank, Bo was not good defensively last year at all on the whole. He was cheating here and there, taking shortcuts to generate that impressive second half output (and those lapses were especially prominent early when he wasn't even scoring either). He wasn't minus 30 by accident, especially while scoring 40pts of his own. There were serious problems, and he was clearly in way over his head with responsibility last year. That's not the kind of player who you're going to match up vs Top Lines, and despite the production...still often a net negative on the whole.

I actually sort of "get" the idea of trying to scale back Horvat's responsibility, let him focus on just getting the bedrock of his game as a defensive/two-way forward in order. Trying to relieve the pressure on him to produce offensively...if that's what's getting to him (and from some of Horvat's comments even, it sounds like that may be a bit of the case).

Problem is, i don't know how much faith i or anyone else have in Granlund and Sutter to carry lines that actually produce enough offensively to truly alleviate that burden on Horvat. Which kind of defeats the purpose, unless those lines are scoring a ton. In which case, having Horvat playing with a pair of offensive black holes in Burrows+Dorsett is just worsening the pressure immensely.


I think WillieD's distorted perception of others like Sutter/Granlund, and massively overinflated perception of Dorsett is where this really falls of the rails though, more so than his perception of Horvat. In WillieD's mind, i'm sure he thinks he's giving Bo a rock solid shutdown winger to play with, which is...:laugh:. But Burrows is a guy who i think really belongs back on a checking line at this point in his career. So if Dorsett actually was the player WillieD seems to see him as, and Granlund+Sutter could actually hold up offensive lines to take pressure of...this might actually be reasonable in trying to take a long-view of Horvat's all-important development.

But one of those things is straight up delusional. And the other is tenuous at best. So it ends up being pretty baffling, even if there is a tiny shred of actually sound reasoning in there somewhere.

It's interesting though...for a coach so apparently on the hot-seat, WillieD doesn't seem very concerned. The "easy out" would be to just let Horvat cheat his way to points in soft sheltered minutes. Not the best thing for Horvat long-term, but probably the quickest ticket to safety for a coach like WillieD with a team that simply couldn't score last year. Even if you don't agree with the reasoning...it's undeniably a "long term development" sort of decision to scale Horvat back from offensive responsibility. WillieD seems to be approaching this like a coach with a long-term mandate and some serious job security. Which is either very odd, completely ignorant of his situation, or indicates he may not be nearly as much on the hot seat as it looks from the outside. :dunno:
 

VanJack

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I'm torn....on the one hand it's a new season and you want the Canucks to do well....but if it goes badly, this gong show behind the the bench will finally be over...my fear is that somehow Horvat, Burrows and Dorsett will miraculously manufacture a goal or two, and Willie will keep them together for 15 games.
 

Huggy

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Jul 22, 2014
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I'm torn....on the one hand it's a new season and you want the Canucks to do well....but if it goes badly, this gong show behind the the bench will finally be over...my fear is that somehow Horvat, Burrows and Dorsett will miraculously manufacture a goal or two, and Willie will keep them together for 15 games.

i was really pissed yesterday but horvat on the 4th line has to make aqualini start to be like holy **** what is wrong with this guy

sooner hell be fired from a mistake like this
 

KeninsFan

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Feb 6, 2012
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These lines won't last, but why start with this on opening night?

:eek:

"That Hansen-Horvat-Dorsett line was real good 2 seasons ago"

"Horvat-Dorsett was the main reason it was good"

That was probably his thought process.
 

Balls Mahoney

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:laugh: Wasn't Sutter supposed to be the elite defensive center?

These people are idiots. Every week it's something mind boggling.
 

MS

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:laugh: Wasn't Sutter supposed to be the elite defensive center?

These people are idiots. Every week it's something mind boggling.

It sounds ridiculous to say about people in the positions they're in, but these are legitimately stupid people who simply don't understand the sport of hockey at any real level for this day and age.
 

MS

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I don't mind the experimenting in pre-season but yeah, for the regular season?

This isn't experimenting. This is based on the long-term evaluations of the players involved by both management and the coaching staff. It isn't just Willie going crazy on an island by himself doing weird ****. This is top-down stuff, especially when it comes to Horvat.
 

CherryToke

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This isn't experimenting. This is based on the long-term evaluations of the players involved by both management and the coaching staff. It isn't just Willie going crazy on an island by himself doing weird ****. This is top-down stuff, especially when it comes to Horvat.

There is no proof that Willie is being forced to do this so I put the blame 100% on him. Even if the idea is coming from Benning, a good coach would be able to convince upper management why this is a bad idea.. Line up decisions are up to the coach.

edit: and the Comments from Willie make it sound like it was his genius idea going back to last season when he split up Horvat and Bertschi because Horvat was "getting away from his game". :facepalm:
 
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Billy Kvcmu

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So a Habs fan on the main board think WD gets more than fair criticism due to our bad roster.
I was like huh? Then I saw his profile picture
Shea Weber's Habs jersey....
 

timw33

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It sounds ridiculous to say about people in the positions they're in, but these are legitimately stupid people who simply don't understand the sport of hockey at any real level for this day and age.

It runs through the entire organization right now and it's pretty pathetic. It's like they just hire a bunch of yes-men that will do whatever Francesco wants.
 

MikeK

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It runs through the entire organization right now and it's pretty pathetic. It's like they just hire a bunch of yes-men that will do whatever Francesco wants.

It isn't like, it's exactly what has happened. A bunch of puppets whose strings lead to the top.
 

AwesomeInTheory

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I think there is something to the idea that they want Horvat to concentrate on building himself into the two-way "Bergeron type" he was drafted to hopefully become. He should be able to eventually do both. There's some salient point nestled into the twisted WillieD logic somewhere there.

"We want you to become a better swimmer, so we're going to attach two boat anchors to you and put you in the middle of the Gobi."
 

Burke's Evil Spirit

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So I posted this in the GDT but I think it's worth mentioning here too because I think him talking about Horvat and Hansen last season illustrates how Willie thinks hockey works.

http://theprovince.com/sports/hocke...-face-of-canucks-whats-his-future-as-a-player

“I worried about that last year,†coach Willie Desjardins says. “For sure, I did. I think we put him [Horvat] in some situations that weren’t fair. A good player knows what you need.

“He knew we needed scoring. So he changed his game to score. So did Jannik Hansen. They went, ‘Yeah, we need scoring, I have to contribute more.’

“But I think both of those guys, the best part of their games is the two-way parts. They’re really good defensively.â€

I think Willie really undervalues how hard it is to produce offense at a first line rate. He seems to think any grinder can just put his mind to it and become a scorer. And the flipside of this is, he thinks being a checker is a lot more valuable than it actually is.

Anyways I hope he doesn't ruin Horvat too badly before he's fired.
 

I in the Eye

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Dec 14, 2002
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There is no proof that Willie is being forced to do this so I put the blame 100% on him. Even if the idea is coming from Benning, a good coach would be able to convince upper management why this is a bad idea.. Line up decisions are up to the coach.

edit: and the Comments from Willie make it sound like it was his genius idea going back to last season when he split up Horvat and Bertschi because Horvat was "getting away from his game". :facepalm:

Benning has a whiteboard in his office with lines on it... Benning has said in the past that they discuss as a group and share ideas and suggestions, but ultimately it is up to Willie who he dresses.
 

RobertKron

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Sep 1, 2007
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So I posted this in the GDT but I think it's worth mentioning here too because I think him talking about Horvat and Hansen last season illustrates how Willie thinks hockey works.

http://theprovince.com/sports/hocke...-face-of-canucks-whats-his-future-as-a-player



I think Willie really undervalues how hard it is to produce offense at a first line rate. He seems to think any grinder can just put his mind to it and become a scorer. And the flipside of this is, he thinks being a checker is a lot more valuable than it actually is.

Anyways I hope he doesn't ruin Horvat too badly before he's fired.

This is ****ing insanity.
 

biturbo19

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"We want you to become a better swimmer, so we're going to attach two boat anchors to you and put you in the middle of the Gobi."


I think it's really "1 boat anchor". Dorsett, unfortunately. If not for Dorsett, i think it would be a reasonably sound premise. If you put Horvat out there with Burrows and say...Hansen, that's absolutely a line where you can match them against the Kopitar/Getzlaf/Monahan's etc. A line where you can really set Bo back to the bedrock of his game, the premise on which he was drafted so highly - ahead of more pure offensive players. The defensive game, from which his good offense flows. The Bergeron-type game that makes him potentially so much more valuable than a one-dimensional 40pt center with a lot of sloppy defensive mistakes and shortcuts.


The reality is...Bae-Bo has real chemistry, and in the future that makes a ton of sense to potentially come back to. But in the meantime, right now...Baertschi is our 2nd best offensive LWer. Whichever line he's on is going to be a go-to offensive line. Now, if you're serious about the long-term approach of getting Bo back to his roots as a reliable 2-way Center and growing from there into the Bergeron-type who looks after his own end first...you pretty much have to split the Bae-Bo bromance up for now. If the Bae-Granny duo lets you do that for the time being, that's really a positive thing.

To me, it really just comes down to an issue of WillieD's skewed perception of Derek Dorsett. That's the real festering oversight in this approach to the lineup. Dorsett simply is not the player WillieD thinks he is. If it was:

Sedin-Sedin-Eriksson
Bae-Granny-Virtanen
Gaunce-Sutter-Dorsett
Burrows-Bo-Hansen


Would people being throwing this kind of conniption fit over the line combos and line numbers and all this talk about getting Horvat back to his roots as a "takes care of his own zone first" type 2-way Center?

I seriously doubt it.
 

AwesomeInTheory

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I love Burrows, but I'm concerned about his footspeed being adequate to match against top lines nowadays. I'd love to see him experience a mini-renaissance, but I don't think it is likely.
 

biturbo19

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I love Burrows, but I'm concerned about his footspeed being adequate to match against top lines nowadays. I'd love to see him experience a mini-renaissance, but I don't think it is likely.

I do think it neuters his game a bit at both ends. But it seems to me that the effect of that lost step is far more pronounced at the offensive end, where his effectiveness was always more about winning those small area races to pucks, which he's clearly no longer as effective at.

Defensively, he's always been a smart positional player who doesn't have to race and chase to be where he needs to be. It's always helped him cover extra ice on the PK, but 5v5 the strength of his defensive game has always been in smart positioning and tenaciously engaging in puck battles - which he can still do. I still don't have a lot of worry about him vs top lines, with the right linemates at least.

Offensively, i don't think the Burr we once knew is ever coming back. But Defensively, i don't think the drop-off in his play has been near as pronounced.
 

Tim McCracken

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I love Burrows, but I'm concerned about his footspeed being adequate to match against top lines nowadays. I'd love to see him experience a mini-renaissance, but I don't think it is likely.

I think he can still contribute playing 8 - 9 minutes per game and on the PK. Dorsett on the other hand, not so much.
 
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