Discussion About Management . Part 44. (#356)

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Motte and Bailey

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Nylander played 22 games in 2015-16 and didn’t stop the Leafs from finishing 30th. There’s no way to know if he even plays any games for us or whether he changes our place in the standings. Maybe we finish 7th and win the #2 lottery spot and draft Laine?

It’s all postulation as we don’t know how much Nylander would have played or what impact it would have had. Hell, maybe drafting Pettersson in 2017 means we don’t draft as high in 2020. Who cares? You aim for the best player out of every pick and failing to do so hurts your organization significantly. Otherwise why draft at all?

As for Larsson-Hall, the difference is obviously that the Oilers were finished building up their forwards and needed to stabilize their back end. That made Larsson more valuable to the Oilers than Hall. That situation didn’t apply here where we were (and still are) a hot mess at forward, possibly even more so than at D. Benning not only got the value wrong but also the organization need and even the timing of the deal in our rebuild. Just stunning incompetence at every turn.

We don't know for sure if McDavid will ever score another point either. Of course we are talking about what's more likely. More points = more offence = more games won = lower draft pick. If you say Nylander can replace the Sedins then you must own the logical extension of that. Knock it off with the mental gymnastics.

If the Oilers were finished building their forwards how come they're still a one line team? The reason why they overpaid for Larson is because people like you were in charge of their drafting in the top 10, they always took the best forward available for all those years until they had no defense and no balance in the lineup. It was a bad value trade but everyone in Edmonton would make that trade again every time because regardless of EA sports theoretical value what matters most is the long term impact the trade has on the team.

Canucks aren't a hot mess anywhere, they have quality young players in every position on the NHL, quality young prospects at every position, and more quality draft picks coming up to build a stacked roster through the draft.
 

Addison Rae

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Dorsett is an average 4th liner who's overpaid and over played. If he was paid fairly and played as much as an everage 4th liner I don't think any of us would really have a problem with him. Same could be said for Brandon Sutter, he certainly has his value if deployed currently, but he's grossly overplayed and overpaid thus why this fan base doesn't like him.
 

CanaFan

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Ok, we're making some progress then. Have you seen his two scraps this season? I thought he won both. I know you have no sure way of knowing but do you think he's liked by his teammates? or his coaches? What about his work on the PK?

The Ottawa fight? He didn’t win that. The fight was even until he got slammed to the ice. At best a draw, def not a “win”. Didn’t see the scrap tonight.

I’m sure he’s liked by his teammates, most guys who’ll eat a fist are.

Haven’t noticed his work on the PK. Has he been especially good in your books?
 
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Breakers

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We don't know for sure if McDavid will ever score another point either. Of course we are talking about what's more likely. More points = more offence = more games won = lower draft pick. If you say Nylander can replace the Sedins then you must own the logical extension of that. Knock it off with the mental gymnastics.

If the Oilers were finished building their forwards how come they're still a one line team? The reason why they overpaid for Larson is because people like you were in charge of their drafting in the top 10, they always took the best forward available for all those years until they had no defense and no balance in the lineup. It was a bad value trade but everyone in Edmonton would make that trade again every time because regardless of EA sports theoretical value what matters most is the long term impact the trade has on the team.

Canucks aren't a hot mess anywhere, they have quality young players in every position on the NHL, quality young prospects at every position, and more quality draft picks coming up to build a stacked roster through the draft.

Trust me, we have an above average prospect pool when it should be top 5 or top 6 by now.
 

Nomobo

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Dorsett is an average 4th liner who's overpaid and over played. If he was paid fairly and played as much as an everage 4th liner I don't think any of us would really have a problem with him. Same could be said for Brandon Sutter, he certainly has his value if deployed currently, but he's grossly overplayed and overpaid thus why this fan base doesn't like him.

I disagree, I think he's one of the best 4th liners in the league and a great teammate as well. You underestimate the value of players like Dorsett. There's a reason his coaches deploy him the way they do and no, they're not stupid.
 

CanaFan

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We don't know for sure if McDavid will ever score another point either. Of course we are talking about what's more likely. More points = more offence = more games won = lower draft pick. If you say Nylander can replace the Sedins then you must own the logical extension of that. Knock it off with the mental gymnastics.

So maybe they get Winnipeg’s 7th spot and win the Laine lottery then?

Also what about all those game changing hits that Virtanen threw in 2015-16? How many more games did we win because of that? 10-15 maybe?

If the Oilers were finished building their forwards how come they're still a one line team? The reason why they overpaid for Larson is because people like you were in charge of their drafting in the top 10, they always took the best forward available for all those years until they had no defense and no balance in the lineup. It was a bad value trade but everyone in Edmonton would make that trade again every time because regardless of EA sports theoretical value what matters most is the long term impact the trade has on the team.

Edmonton was imbalanced and sacrificed some offense for improved defense. It got them to the 2nd round of the playoffs last year so seems to have been a good move.

Canucks aren't a hot mess anywhere, they have quality young players in every position on the NHL, quality young prospects at every position, and more quality draft picks coming up to build a stacked roster through the draft.

What quality young players do they have in the NHL?

What prospects are going to give them this stacked roster?
 

Nomobo

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The Ottawa fight? He didn’t win that. The fight was even until he got slammed to the ice. At best a draw, def not a “win”. Didn’t see the scrap tonight.

I’m sure he’s liked by his teammates, most guys who’ll eat a fist are.

Haven’t noticed his work on the PK. Has he been especially good in your books?

I think he won that fight like he did tonight but that's not as important as being willing to step up when challenged or protecting a teammate.
He's not your typical goon who's there to 'eat fists' as you call him but a dependable 3-4 liner and that is the reason he's deployed by his coaches the way he is.
 

y2kcanucks

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I think he won that fight like he did tonight but that's not as important as being willing to step up when challenged or protecting a teammate.
He's not your typical goon who's there to 'eat fists' as you call him but a dependable 3-4 liner and that is the reason he's deployed by his coaches the way he is.

Of course you thought he won the fight.

Dorsett isn't that good of a hockey player though. That's where you're wrong. His puck possession isn't very good. If you're talking about him as a dependable 3rd liner...yikes. There's a reason we're a bad team...he's not the sole reason but he's one of the reasons.
 

Nomobo

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Of course you thought he won the fight.

Dorsett isn't that good of a hockey player though. That's where you're wrong. His puck possession isn't very good. If you're talking about him as a dependable 3rd liner...yikes. There's a reason we're a bad team...he's not the sole reason but he's one of the reasons.

Nobody is any good according to you, players or management. Nothing good about the Canucks at all, right? Why are you even here? Don't you get tired of being so negative? I think you just like the attention, that's my guess.
 

CanaFan

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I think he won that fight like he did tonight but that's not as important as being willing to step up when challenged or protecting a teammate.
He's not your typical goon who's there to 'eat fists' as you call him but a dependable 3-4 liner and that is the reason he's deployed by his coaches the way he is.

Well he didn’t win the fight so that’s questionable judgement on your part. And just showing up isn’t a terribly effective deterrent. Being able to win fights is.

The rest of his game is meh. We’d probably be better if we gave Virtanen his ice time instead. Better hitter, forechecker, and puck carrier. Not sure we’d miss Dorsett one but tbh. Maybe on the plane?
 
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Nomobo

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Well he didn’t win the fight so that’s questionable judgement on your part. And just showing up isn’t a terribly effective deterrent. Being able to win fights is.

The rest of his game is meh. We’d probably be better if we gave Virtanen his ice time instead. Better hitter, forechecker, and puck carrier. Not sure we’d miss Dorsett one but tbh. Maybe on the plane?

I know, you made up your mind a couple of years ago.
 

Motte and Bailey

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1) PDO is the sum of a team's 5v5 shooting percentage (the number of goals they score divided by the number of shots on goal they generate) and their 5v5 save percentage (the number of shots their goalies stop divided by the number of shots on goal they allow). It's a measure of luck. You usually defend that we were unlucky, but the reality is that in 2014 we were lucky (100.8, 8th most fortunate), and the next year, we were in the middle of the park with 99.8. 100 is the norm. This proves your assessement of lucky is simply false.

Why is 100 the norm? What if a team has a good goalie and efficient shooters? That's not luck. Luck is different than PDO, even though PDO attempts to measure luck. Luck is penalty calls, posts, referees blocking the play, injuries and bounces which don't all even out over an 82 game schedule. If anything the PDO proves me right, if the measurable shooting and save % luck decreased between 2014 and 2016 then the unmeasurable luck likely decreased even more.

2) Granlund had one of the most favourable deployments not only on the Canucks but in the entire league. He played in situations to inflate his stats (go check them, since you are too lazy to back your "facts"). And yet he couldn't surpass the 40-point pace.

He had an injured wrist too. Are you saying Granlund isn't a good player? Every expert would disagree with that and rightfully so it takes a certain level of sophistication to recognize the smart little plays he makes all over the ice. It's not really up for debate that Granlund is good, you might as well argue that the Earth is flat.

Well... about the defensive guru Sutter is, he was bad in Carolina, awful in Pittsburgh (that's why everyone says we gave the best player in that trade and payed a pick over that) and, surprise surprise, he still sucks here in Vancouver. There's a stat who measures that. Go use google to find it. You need to be proactive to learn something.

We might have lost imaginary EA sports value in the trade but Sutter is better at his role than Bonino hands down which makes the team better long term in multiple ways.

Dorsett brings an element that no other forward does... are you talking about stupid penalties? Because that's the only thing he brings to the table.

Unique combination of speed, grit, toughness and ability to fight.

I love the impact Gudbranson brings to our game: a stupid penalty, and going from 1-0 to 1-4 in a matter of minutes. I don't even talk about his horrid defensive play...

This is still hockey and we need at least one genuinely rough defensemen that most other players don't want to get in an altercation with or make them pay the price in front of the net for deterrence it's like having nuclear weapons. Other players don't back off if your defence is full of softies like Stecher, Tanev, Edler and Hutton.

3) Dahlen. And that's it. You didn't get any top 6 players, you just deploy most of them as top 6 because your top 6 is crap. Period.

What is a top 6 player by your definition?

4) This is not 20-20 hindsight. People saw them in juniors, saw what they produce at that level. The only problem with Nylander was his attitude but, as you can see, it took 2 years for JV to get his **** together. And there's not only the points. The impact the game in a positive way, they win games (go check the Jets, they are fun to watch, since you clearly are against the Canucks) and, contrary to Dorsett, Tkachuck brings that element and can play hockey. Those are two players (Nylander/Ehlers + Tkachuck) who play in the NHL, winning games for their teams, and impacting the game with their skill (for the first two) and grit (KT). Oh, do you know you could have on this team, right now, Tkachuck, Ehlers/Nylander and Pastrnak? But the so called guru of drafting is botching pick after pick after pick in the first round, when he doesn't trade them away for crap hockey players.

Ha more 20-20 hindsight with the mentioning of Pasternak. Every team would look bad if you went back and cherry picked who they could've drafted but didn't. I'm not sold on Tkachuk, everything I heard about him was said about Sam Bennett who looks like a super bust. Gaudreau and Backlund can make lots of players look good.

P.S.: No one told me nothing. I live 6000 km away from Vancouver, and I follow the team. Since I don't have that much people to talk about hockey, I read about them and learn a lot. Reading is wonderful for your brain, you should try it at least once. And next time you talk to Benning, give him the same advice.

I read too but you have to take what you read with a grain of salt and use your own judgement.
 

CanaFan

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I know, you made up your mind a couple of years ago.

Well he has been a fairly poor player over the past couple of years, that is true.

And I haven’t seen anything over the past 6 games that would lead me to believe that has changed.

But hey, if thinking he won a fight he clearly didn’t win and something about being liked by his teammates makes you happy then you really should worry less about what others think of Dorsett. He’s aces in your books and that’s all that should matter to you.
 

Nomobo

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Well he has been a fairly poor player over the past couple of years, that is true.

And I haven’t seen anything over the past 6 games that would lead me to believe that has changed.

But hey, if thinking he won a fight he clearly didn’t win and something about being liked by his teammates makes you happy then you really should worry less about what others think of Dorsett. He’s aces in your books and that’s all that should matter to you.

It's very clear that you have no answers to the questions I have put to you so you have to resort to condescending post like this one. You're being disingenuous and that's chicken****.
 

CanaFan

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It's very clear that you have no answers to the questions I have put to you so you have to resort to condescending post like this one. You're being disingenuous and that's chicken****.

Wow, that’s quite the response. We still friends?
 
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y2kcanucks

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Nobody is any good according to you, players or management. Nothing good about the Canucks at all, right? Why are you even here? Don't you get tired of being so negative? I think you just like the attention, that's my guess.

Nope, there's a lot of bad with the Canucks. That's to be expected on a team that's finished bottom 3 in back to back seasons. What did you expect? A team that performs that bad would have a lot of positives? :laugh:

I do like some players: Horvat, Boeser, Stecher, even Hutton. But I hope the team fails miserably this year so that management is turfed. The sooner, the better.
 
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