Discussion About Management . Part 44. (#356)

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I in the Eye

Drop a ball it falls
Dec 14, 2002
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Everyone here watches the game. People get into advanced stats because they are hardcore hockey fans who watch a ton of games.

Not me... I listen to the games from my phone (when it makes sense to)... one earpiece in, so I can do other more productive or entertaining things at the same time. This is a terrible tv show. It's like spending a couple hours watching the fireplace log... the most entertaining thing is the guy adding more logs periodically - or poking the fire with a stick. I do go to the games, very often, but that's more to go out with my friends after (sometimes), and catch up on the throws of everyday life during.
 

Addison Rae

Registered User
Jun 2, 2009
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Benning trades our farm for John Tavares and his rights at the deadline and proceeds to offer him a contract with an AAV of 13+ million. There is your nightmare scenario
Nope, at least John Tavares is a franchise calibre player. Jim Benning has spent 13 million on Loui Eriksson, Brandon Sutter and Erik Gudbranson. So clearly that isn't the worst case scenario, at all.
 
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I in the Eye

Drop a ball it falls
Dec 14, 2002
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Not me... I listen to the games from my phone (when it makes sense to)... one earpiece in, so I can do other more productive or entertaining things at the same time. This is a terrible tv show. It's like spending a couple hours watching the fireplace log... the most entertaining thing is the guy adding more logs periodically - or poking the fire with a stick. I do go to the games, very often, but that's more to go out with my friends after (sometimes), and catch up on the throws of everyday life during.

----
To me, advanced stats (and stats in general) are a way of seeing on a large scale how teams and players are doing, without having to follow every game, every team, and every player in the league. When something jumps out, can get the information to find out why something interesting is happening.

Stats are important. Without them, knowledge and finding out what deserves deeper digging on things would be limited. Visiting here is insightful too... not just the Canucks board, but other team boards to get the ground zero opinions, thoughts, and information that might not otherwise be considered... when relying on just a single set of eyes and a single brain.

Edit: didn't mean to quote myself... getting used to the new board :)
 

Nomobo

Registered User
Feb 20, 2015
6,134
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Victoria
I watch every single game and I'm not a big advanced stats guy, although I do understand the value in context.

Derek Dorsett is not a competent top-9 forward offensively. And when you start playing him in a top-9 defensive role, he gets exposed.

Again, take a look at the completely blown coverage on the 6-3 goal against Boston or the 2-1 goal against Calgary. He's trying hard, but just brutal defensive play. And this is backed up by the advanced stats (and the traditional stats, for that matter).

He isn't talented enough to generate sustained possession or goals in the offensive end of the rink, and he charges around getting caught out of position at the defensive end of the rink. In limited minutes, he's a decent speedy 4th line energy player. Used as anything more than that, he's a liability.

You're arguing for the sake of it. I never said he was a top 9 forward, this is the kind of stuff you bring to make yourself look good. I'm saying that on this team he can he is a valuable 4th line player that in a pinch can contribute on the 3rd line as well. You want to talk context, you could put the defensive spotlight on many players on our team and come with examples where coverage is blown resulting in goals, this isn't a very good team.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dorsett for the effort and courage he shows and I think if you were able to ask his teammates and coaches you would get a similar response. Mentorship or intangibles call it whatever you want but it is a thing in a team sport such as hockey.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
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Vancouver, BC
You're arguing for the sake of it. I never said he was a top 9 forward, this is the kind of stuff you bring to make yourself look good. I'm saying that on this team he can he is a valuable 4th line player that in a pinch can contribute on the 3rd line as well. You want to talk context, you could put the defensive spotlight on many players on our team and come with examples where coverage is blown resulting in goals, this isn't a very good team.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dorsett for the effort and courage he shows and I think if you were able to ask his teammates and coaches you would get a similar response. Mentorship or intangibles call it whatever you want but it is a thing in a team sport such as hockey.

You quoted me and then made a comment about not watching hockey, so I responded. I don't see how that's 'arguing for the sake of it'. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong because I don't watch games, I'm going to defend myself and give non-statistical examples of his weaknesses.
 

Wo Yorfat

dumb person
Nov 7, 2016
2,961
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Not me... I listen to the games from my phone (when it makes sense to)... one earpiece in, so I can do other more productive or entertaining things at the same time. This is a terrible tv show. It's like spending a couple hours watching the fireplace log... the most entertaining thing is the guy adding more logs periodically - or poking the fire with a stick. I do go to the games, very often, but that's more to go out with my friends after (sometimes), and catch up on the throws of everyday life during.

Try just looking at a wall and using theatre of the mind. Save electricity!
giphy.gif
 

Nomobo

Registered User
Feb 20, 2015
6,134
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Victoria
You quoted me and then made a comment about not watching hockey, so I responded. I don't see how that's 'arguing for the sake of it'. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong because I don't watch games, I'm going to defend myself and give non-statistical examples of his weaknesses.

I wasn't even addressing you in the post you quoted.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
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Surrey, BC
Remember when "Super Scout" didn't even bother to call Will Butcher because he had no interest? Butcher has almost double the points of our leading scorer (9 points in 7 games) and is a good young defenseman. Someone a team that's rebuilding should perhaps be interested. Where was Dim Jim on that one?
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
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Surrey, BC
What's interesting is Kerfoot was a 5th round pick in 2012 of the New Jersey Devils, and Will Butcher was a 5th round pick in 2013 of the Colorado Avalanche.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
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Vancouver, BC
Remember when "Super Scout" didn't even bother to call Will Butcher because he had no interest? Butcher has almost double the points of our leading scorer (9 points in 7 games) and is a good young defenseman. Someone a team that's rebuilding should perhaps be interested. Where was Dim Jim on that one?

I hadn't heard that one. Do you have a source on it?

Astonishingly inexcusable if true.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
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Surrey, BC
I hadn't heard that one. Do you have a source on it?

Astonishingly inexcusable if true.

Hmm not sure how to embed tweets anymore, but it was tweeted by Rick Dhaliwal on August 21:

"
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For those that keep asking, the #Canucks never called UFA defenseman Will Butcher, they had zero interest in the Hobey Baker award winner."
 

Just A Bit Outside

Playoffs??!
Mar 6, 2010
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Already beaten to death but my quick thoughts on drafting of this management group:

2014 - Drafted Virtanen
Very much likely an ownership decision. Local kid. PF. Instead of forward looking the thoughts were still on Boston/LA and playing mean, hard and big. If the thought process was similar to 2017 (i.e. Pettersson), we likely draft Nylander or Ehlers.

2015 - Drafted Boeser
Went with the high IQ, goal scorer and has proven to be a good choice so far. Pick likely would not have changed.

2016 - Drafted Juolevi
Management essentially watched this kid in the WJ (while playing with recording setting players Laine and PoolParty) and fell in love. Based on most accounts, Juolevi was not even the best defenseman available let alone the best player. Rumours of not drafting Tkachuk because of already having Virtanen but I also have to wonder if Matthew being Keith's kid also came into play (i.e. Linden). Could have drafted:

1. Tkachuk if LW needed after drafting Nylander (C)
2. Keller if C needed after drafting Ehlers (W)
3. Sergachev if dman wanted (rated higher than Juolevi by most pundits)

2017 - Drafted Pettersson
Kid as looked good so far but still early and needs time to bulk up.

IMO, they screwed up drafting in 2014 due to inaccurate style of play mindset and screwed up 2016 based on an inaccurate evaluation of a kid from one tourney playing with 2 all-time great forwards in the WJs.
 

FroshaugFan2

Registered User
Dec 7, 2006
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Hmm not sure how to embed tweets anymore, but it was tweeted by Rick Dhaliwal on August 21:

"
More
For those that keep asking, the #Canucks never called UFA defenseman Will Butcher, they had zero interest in the Hobey Baker award winner."
With the new site you just paste the Twitter link to embed it.

 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
83,419
Vancouver, BC
Hmm not sure how to embed tweets anymore, but it was tweeted by Rick Dhaliwal on August 21:

"
More
For those that keep asking, the #Canucks never called UFA defenseman Will Butcher, they had zero interest in the Hobey Baker award winner."

:laugh:

Yeah, what a great scout! This idiot wouldn't know talent if it kicked him in the face. In his mind, since we already had Stecher on the roster, we couldn't have another sub-6 foot defender.

Thanks for that. Dhaliwal is the best source in this market right now, so I'll take that report as extremely accurate.
 

Ryp37

Registered User
Nov 6, 2011
7,525
1,081
Not even surprised anymore.

Don't think I can handle another year of Benning
 

MadaCanuckle

Registered User
Jun 25, 2012
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Lisboa
I see you've been doing a lot of research, good for you. I only base my opinions on watching the games and after 40 years of watching and following the hockey and the Canucks. Do you watch the games or do you just read about them?
Both. And it is well documented on this forum.
40 years? Really? In 40 years you didn't learn anything?
 
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MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Like, Butcher is a player who just won the Hobey Baker, was unanimously the best college free agent available, and would have filled a massive hole in our organization. And is now the early front-runner for the Calder Trophy and looks like one of the best young offensive defenders in the NHL.

And Mr. Super Scout didn't even make a phone call when he was available for free. That is just ASTONISHING incompetence - either through just sheer laziness or through catastrophically bad talent evaluation. Based on the phrasing from Dhaliwal, it sounds like the latter.

Obviously the player had many suitors and we'd have been up against it to sign him. But with a player of this calibre, you have to do your due diligence and see if what you can offer interests him.
 

Alan Jackson

Registered User
Nov 3, 2005
5,197
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Langley, BC
Like, Butcher is a player who just won the Hobey Baker, was unanimously the best college free agent available, and would have filled a massive hole in our organization. And is now the early front-runner for the Calder Trophy and looks like one of the best young offensive defenders in the NHL.

And Mr. Super Scout didn't even make a phone call when he was available for free. That is just ASTONISHING incompetence - either through just sheer laziness or through catastrophically bad talent evaluation. Based on the phrasing from Dhaliwal, it sounds like the latter.

Obviously the player had many suitors and we'd have been up against it to sign him. But with a player of this calibre, you have to do your due diligence and see if what you can offer interests him.

I seem to remember Benning being asked about Butcher on 1040 and he seemed to indicate that the Canucks were basically told they weren't in the running, that the player wanted to sign in the States. I could be mistaken though.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
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Vancouver, BC
I seem to remember Benning being asked about Butcher on 1040 and he seemed to indicate that the Canucks were basically told they weren't in the running, that the player wanted to sign in the States. I could be mistaken though.

And if that's the case, fair enough and I'll retract my comments.

But Dhaliwal has been an incredibly spot-on source with quality contacts in the organization, and if he says 'the team had zero interest in the player' I'm inclined to believe that until I see evidence to the contrary. If not, someone really got their wires crossed somewhere.
 

Alan Jackson

Registered User
Nov 3, 2005
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Langley, BC
And if that's the case, fair enough and I'll retract my comments.

But Dhaliwal has been an incredibly spot-on source with quality contacts in the organization, and if he says 'the team had zero interest in the player' I'm inclined to believe that until I see evidence to the contrary. If not, someone really got their wires crossed somewhere.

Yeah, and I have no source for that - I could very well be misremembering. Obviously, it wouldn`t reflect very well on the Canucks if they didn`t at least inquire.
 

Dissonance Jr

Registered User
Oct 6, 2017
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Here is Dhaliwal from August. Seems like Butcher's agent was at least open to hearing out the Canucks...


Edit: Oh wait, here's even more from back in July — they would've been "very interested" to hear what the Canucks had to offer:




Of course it's always possible that Linden/Benning had heard privately they had no shot at Butcher, but this sure sounds like his agent was encouraging them to call and at least kick the tires.
 
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Alan Jackson

Registered User
Nov 3, 2005
5,197
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Langley, BC
Here is Dhaliwal from August. Seems like Butcher's agent was at least open to hearing out the Canucks...



Oh, here's even more from back in July — they would've been "very interested" to hear what the Canucks had to offer:





Fair enough, sounds like I imagined that. Again, I think he`s a player the Canucks should have at least placed a call too. I see if I can dig up that interview with Linden/Benning (would have been around late August, I think?), but I may very well have misremembered what I heard.
 

I in the Eye

Drop a ball it falls
Dec 14, 2002
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Butcher would have been worth a shot... and if they got him, would have been a better option than puiliot... who cost a 4th and was gifted a roster spot regardless. If willing to do that for puiliot, gifting a roster spot for Butcher for the year would have probably been an attractive incentive for him.
 
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