Discussion About Management . Part 44. (#356)

[Nomobo]

Wow, that’s quite the response. We still friends?

Well sure, if you want to be. I won't hold it against you if you make it hard for me.

 

[Addison Rae]

Yes add Hitchcock and Vigneault. Obviously stupid.

Huh, AV deployed Dorsett as a 12th forward..

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Well sure, if you want to be. I won't hold it against you if you make it hard for me.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Because Jim Benning is an idiot

Realizing this is sorta like

Suddenly it's all so clear

 

[sting101]

Huh, AV deployed Dorsett as a 12th forward..

Hitch and AV both played him 11 minutes per game.

He's getting a couple more minutes a game because he's been in a agitator role with Sutter who gets teams top lines. He's had a good start.

 

[CanaFan]

I didn’t wanna touch that one ...

 

[MS]

Dorsett, when he's playing well as he was in 14-15 and to start the year this year, is a decent if overpaid 8-10 minute energy 4th liner. And if used like that, he'd be fine.

The problem comes when coaches with blind spots for 'good guys' and who mistake effort level for defensive play start using him as a top-9 defensive forward and playing him 15 minutes/game. When that happens, he becomes a liability. He is neither good enough offensively nor defensively for that role. And you end up seeing plays like the 6-3 goal tonight or the goal in the Flames game where he for some reason abdicated the LH point he was supposed to be covering to be the 5th man below the goal line on the RH side, and his wide-open check ends up scoring.

I will give him credit that in a small sample early this year he does look far better than the two previous years, where he was a sub-replacement level player.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

I didn’t wanna touch that one ...

I'm now creeped out after noticing she can't wink. Wtf is that?

 

[RandV]

Trust me, we have an above average prospect pool when it should be top 5 or top 6 by now.

It's pretty telling that having had the team through 4 drafts between Benning drafted players on the Canucks and Comets we have one impact player each: Boeser and Demko. Then one more non-impact player each with Virtanen and Brisebois. A lot of that weighs on mismanagement as well but this really isn't a good record, it's taken us back to the Nonis days.

 

[Addison Rae]

Hitch and AV both played him 11 minutes per game.

He's getting a couple more minutes a game because he's been in a agitator role with Sutter who gets teams top lines. He's had a good start.

In his first season in Vancouver Dorsett played similar even strength minutes to Alex Burrows, Nick Bonino and Jannik Hansen, players who are all significantly better than him. Dorsett the following year played more even strength minutes than Alex Burrows and Sven Baertschi, and played similar minutes to Bo Horvat.

He is an average 4th liner being deployed and paid too much, it's that simple.

 

[sting101]

In his first season in Vancouver Dorsett played similar even strength minutes to Jannik Hansen, Nick Bonino and Jannik Hansen, players who are all significantly better than him. Dorsett the following year played more even strength minutes than Alex Burrows and Sven Baertschi, and played similar minutes to Bo Horvat.

He is an average 4th liner being deployed and paid too much, it's that simple.

Never disputed this. somebody called his Coaches stupid for playing him too much when fact is his ice time has always been in that 10-14 minute range and 6 different coaches on 3 different teams have treated him in this manner 2 of which are 2 of the more successful one's in the modern era?

His elevated ice time has been due to teams that sucked. His 1st year here was a career year for him 25pts alongside of Hansen and Horvat was pretty damn good.

MS said it right. 8-12 minutes softening a few defenseman is about right. Nothing wrong with throwing him a bone when he on a role or scores a goal though.

 

[F A N]

He is an average 4th liner being deployed and paid too much, it's that simple.

It's actually not as simple as you think. Green is trying to roll 4 lines. Dorsett is actually 11th among forwards in ice time. He is overpaid. But for most of his career he has been an above average 4th line player. Ask Columbus fans. Ask Rangers fans how good Dorsett was when he was healthy. They all have much better impressions of Dorsett than we do (salary notwithstanding).

 

[Addison Rae]

It's actually not as simple as you think. Green is trying to roll 4 lines. Dorsett is actually 11th among forwards in ice time. He is overpaid. But for most of his career he has been an above average 4th line player. Ask Columbus fans. Ask Rangers fans how good Dorsett was when he was healthy. They all have much better impressions of Dorsett than we do (salary notwithstanding).

When he's getting similar even strength minutes to guys like Bonino, Burrows, Hansen and Horvat than yes, for the most part of his Canucks tenure he has unquestionably been overplayed.

"Asking fans" isn't a good enough method of analysis for me, objectively speaking Dorsett has been a replacement level player the past few years but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and call him an average fourth liner due to hiss track record.

 

[absolute garbage]

The doomsday scenario for this organisation is that Benning is still employed when Sedins' 14 million come off the books. Sedins look like they are done so it's going to be next summer. Scary times.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

I read too but you have to take what you read with a grain of salt and use your own judgement.

If your judgement sucks, as clearly yours is, you should read more. But i was expecting some kind of arguments/facts how good Benning is... nothing to see so far. Why? Did Weisbrod did give you the same answers as always?

 

[MadaCanuckle]

It's very clear that you have no answers to the questions I have put to you so you have to resort to condescending post like this one. You're being disingenuous and that's chicken****.

Don't ever mistake no answers for you with no answers. You clearly want to force us that your cousin/best friend Dorsett is a good hockey player. He isn't. He's overplayed and overpaid 4th line who people in Vancouver want to be a good defensive player. He even got more OZS% last year and was a negative possession player.

His best seasons where those which his TOI was under 11 minutes. And those are of an average 4th liner. Well, I can point out the review of Dorsett's year from Canucks Army:

https://canucksarmy.com/2016/04/26/canucks-army-year-in-review-derek-dorsett/

I will point out two paragraphs, since I know you and the other employee/Benning friend usually don't like to read my stuff:

When Dorsett was on the ice, the Canucks once again bled chances against. While his SCF%Rel is only -2.1%, the shear amount of chances against is not a good sign at all. Dorsett had the worst scoring chance +/- amongst the Canucks’ forwards, and had worse SCF/60 and SCA/60 rates compared to last year.

If the Canucks are planning to make the playoffs next season, one could argue that they are better off without Dorsett in their lineup. The fact the Canucks were better off in every measure above without Dorsett on the ice coupled with the alarming amount of scoring chances against heavily support this. With a healthy roster, it is likely there will be 12 forwards better than him next season.

In conclusion, Dorsett is also firmly on team tank.

P.S: Do you how lucky he is in his first year and this year? PDO is 102.7 in 2014/15 and 104.5 this year. It means he was extremely lucky on that "good" first year and he winning the lottery in every game this year. If you still can understand this, it means that he's going to regress badly, and to justify his current contract, he would need to be like this during 82 games. Feel free to ignore it again.

 

[MS]

The doomsday scenario for this organisation is that Benning is still employed when Sedins' 14 million come off the books. Sedins look like they are done so it's going to be next summer. Scary times.

Yup.

Benning HAS to be gone this summer for this organization to have any hope for the next 5 years. The thought of him spending that $14 million in free agency is enough to make you nauseous.

 

[M2Beezy]

Yup.

Benning HAS to be gone this summer for this organization to have any hope for the next 5 years. The thought of him spending that $14 million in free agency is enough to make you nauseous.

I can see him trading for Dustin Brown cause captained two cups

 

[Nomobo]

Dorsett, when he's playing well as he was in 14-15 and to start the year this year, is a decent if overpaid 8-10 minute energy 4th liner. And if used like that, he'd be fine.

The problem comes when coaches with blind spots for 'good guys' and who mistake effort level for defensive play start using him as a top-9 defensive forward and playing him 15 minutes/game. When that happens, he becomes a liability. He is neither good enough offensively nor defensively for that role. And you end up seeing plays like the 6-3 goal tonight or the goal in the Flames game where he for some reason abdicated the LH point he was supposed to be covering to be the 5th man below the goal line on the RH side, and his wide-open check ends up scoring.

I will give him credit that in a small sample early this year he does look far better than the two previous years, where he was a sub-replacement level player.[/QUOTE

Don't ever mistake no answers for you with no answers. You clearly want to force us that your cousin/best friend Dorsett is a good hockey player. He isn't. He's overplayed and overpaid 4th line who people in Vancouver want to be a good defensive player. He even got more OZS% last year and was a negative possession player.

His best seasons where those which his TOI was under 11 minutes. And those are of an average 4th liner. Well, I can point out the review of Dorsett's year from Canucks Army:

https://canucksarmy.com/2016/04/26/canucks-army-year-in-review-derek-dorsett/

I will point out two paragraphs, since I know you and the other employee/Benning friend usually don't like to read my stuff:





In conclusion, Dorsett is also firmly on team tank.

P.S: Do you how lucky he is in his first year and this year? PDO is 102.7 in 2014/15 and 104.5 this year. It means he was extremely lucky on that "good" first year and he winning the lottery in every game this year. If you still can understand this, it means that he's going to regress badly, and to justify his current contract, he would need to be like this during 82 games. Feel free to ignore it again.

I see you've been doing a lot of research, good for you. I only base my opinions on watching the games and after 40 years of watching and following the hockey and the Canucks. Do you watch the games or do you just read about them?

 

[y2kcanucks]

I see you've been doing a lot of research, good for you. I only base my opinions on watching the games and after 40 years of watching and following the hockey and the Canucks. Do you watch the games or do you just read about them?

I watch the games and I'm smart enough to understand analytics. The numbers align with what I'm seeing on the ice.

 

[Pip]

I see you've been doing a lot of research, good for you. I only base my opinions on watching the games and after 40 years of watching and following the hockey and the Canucks. Do you watch the games or do you just read about them?

Everyone here watches the game. People get into advanced stats because they are hardcore hockey fans who watch a ton of games.

 

[MS]

I see you've been doing a lot of research, good for you. I only base my opinions on watching the games and after 40 years of watching and following the hockey and the Canucks. Do you watch the games or do you just read about them?

I watch every single game and I'm not a big advanced stats guy, although I do understand the value in context.

Derek Dorsett is not a competent top-9 forward offensively. And when you start playing him in a top-9 defensive role, he gets exposed.

Again, take a look at the completely blown coverage on the 6-3 goal against Boston or the 2-1 goal against Calgary. He's trying hard, but just brutal defensive play. And this is backed up by the advanced stats (and the traditional stats, for that matter).

He isn't talented enough to generate sustained possession or goals in the offensive end of the rink, and he charges around getting caught out of position at the defensive end of the rink. In limited minutes, he's a decent speedy 4th line energy player. Used as anything more than that, he's a liability.

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

Benning trades our farm for John Tavares and his rights at the deadline and proceeds to offer him a contract with an AAV of 13+ million. There is your nightmare scenario

 

[Jyrki21]

Issue #68 goes back to the wind-down of last season and that brief period we actually thought they might try rebuilding.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I watch the games and I'm smart enough to understand analytics. The numbers align with what I'm seeing on the ice.