Yes clearly. we all know that. And I can't see Phaneuf accepting returning without the C.
Dion Phaneuf - Will he stay or will he go?
- Thread starter King Mapes
- Start date
- Status
Yes clearly. we all know that. And I can't see Phaneuf accepting returning without the C.
I think we're trading Kessel before Phaneuf. Simply put, Babcock endorsing Kadri and Nylander tells me that Kessel is out. Those two along with Marner ( potentially) will be our skilled guys. Seeing that Kessel will probably not suddenly transform into Hossa, he's going to be moved.
Let him do his soul-searching exercise elsewhere.
Optimist
Wendel and I
His captaincy is questionable. I agree. Not his fault. They slapped the C on his jersey. But reload with picks? There's 29 other teams out there looking for picks. How is dumping Phaneuf going to give the Leafs an advantage?
I really do not understand why all of a sudden every one is talking about keeping Phaneuf, what has really changed
- Are we all of a sudden contending next year or within 3 years
- Have we given up on our long term plan of rebuilding
Yes Phaneuf is a good defense man and it's hard to find a top two defense man, he is not as bad, as was last year, I understand all these arguments and I respect your opinion
My point is Phanuef's valuing is declining and there is no guarantee that it's going to improve in either the short term or the long tem
This team is in a rebuild mode and going to take at least 3-4 years to even compete
Phaneuf is a decent defense man but down the road you are looking Robidas 2 or may be a bit better version of Robidas
The time our prospects are going to mature, he is probably going to be 35 , the chances are slower and less effective version of today's Phaneus
Logically we should trade him for picks and prospects and properly groom them for a long run and do not delay the process
The money saved on his contract should be properly invested in to these upcoming prospects
- Are we all of a sudden contending next year or within 3 years
- Have we given up on our long term plan of rebuilding
Yes Phaneuf is a good defense man and it's hard to find a top two defense man, he is not as bad, as was last year, I understand all these arguments and I respect your opinion
My point is Phanuef's valuing is declining and there is no guarantee that it's going to improve in either the short term or the long tem
This team is in a rebuild mode and going to take at least 3-4 years to even compete
Phaneuf is a decent defense man but down the road you are looking Robidas 2 or may be a bit better version of Robidas
The time our prospects are going to mature, he is probably going to be 35 , the chances are slower and less effective version of today's Phaneus
Logically we should trade him for picks and prospects and properly groom them for a long run and do not delay the process
The money saved on his contract should be properly invested in to these upcoming prospects
If the deal makes sense, sure, but who is going to pay a premium for Kessel, who also needs his 4 million paid on July 1st?
If they can make that 4 million disappear, maybe a wealthy team without a ton of soon to expire ELC's goes for it. The only options that I see are NJD, ARZ, COL, CAR, and maybe NYI.
Babs will turn Kadri into a 2 way playmaking centre. Nylander is at least a year away, and won't be replacing Kessel.
Whoever they draft, they likely take their time with as well. The focus is on drafting and development...
Ultimately, they will replace Kessel with a Nylander. Kadri never replaces Kessel.
I think JvR gets moved at the draft. easy contract to swallow, young, size, hands, pedigree, etc.
Kessel has to go I agree 100%...it's just about when
Trapper
Registered User
- Nov 21, 2013
- 23,916
- 11,336
It all depends on what type of conversation we are having.
There are only 2 possibilities:
1. As a fan you either want Phaneuf to stay or be traded.
2. The organization either keeps Phaneuf or trades him.
Now in light of the Babcock hiring, it's natural to speculate who stays and who goes. We know changes are coming, we just don't know who.
Your points are valid but we aren't in charge.
From everything I've heard, I would have to speculate that maybe Phaneuf isn't being traded.
Kessel however is a different story. We haven't heard a single word about him or from him and we've been informed things will get worse before they get better.
Obviously we are not the decision maker, but I do not understand why people keep on changing there opinion, all of a sudden this thread is now so active and people who were advocating trading are all of a sudden against trading him
Trapper
Registered User
- Nov 21, 2013
- 23,916
- 11,336
I agree with you and I've stated all along that the Burke core of Bozak/Kessel/Phaneuf should be dealt to rebuild. I still maintain that.
However, if I think that someone stays, I would say it's Phaneuf.
When Shanny got here he spoke about Phaneuf, how he liked him and wanted to help him evolve as a leader.
When Babcock got here he spoke about Phaneuf, how he liked him and he's a good kid.
Neither spoke about Kessel like that.
I dont think Phaneuf has to go. Phaneuf is a hard working player and a solid leader. Is he captain material? Maybe not but hes not a bad guy to have around. If the deal isnt right then dont trade him. So many people have started to dislike Phaneuf just because its the cool thing to do.
Kessel and Bozak on the other hand have to be traded. By all reports these guys are lazy and bad for team culture.
Kessel and Bozak on the other hand have to be traded. By all reports these guys are lazy and bad for team culture.
Its funny, Stephane Robidas played arguably the best hockey of his life between 30- and 35, but 34 Phaneuf is gonna be like todays "two broken legs in 18 months, 38 year old Robidas".
It's not really up to us to decide, the management know it better but he was almost traded before the trade line, so I am not sure why Shanny and group would keep him
Phaneuf is over 30 now and not getting younger and his graph is sliding, so he is going to be the same player in 4 -5 years, until now (just before Babcock's hiring) was advocating his trade and now all of a sudden you guys are against trading him
I don't how you guys keep on changing your opinion
Biggest problem with moving Phaneuf before Kadri is going to be the stretch pass. Re-watching games, I have noticed that the first pairing aim was to enable Kessel to "cheat" on his assignments. The moment Horachek entered, the top line started falling apart because they were expected to support Phaneuf.
There's nothing wrong with a fast attacking style. Kane does it even though he's a much better stick handler. In Chicago, Hjalmarsson is the one who stabilises the puck and keeps it zipping. Dion, interestingly, played that role here with Gunnarsson/ Franson.
I, however, don't expect Gardiner and Rielly who are guys that like controlling and skating up the ice changing their styles. Hell, Scott Niedermayer didn't change his rushing playing style with Lemaire, Burns, and Caryle. After all, it'd be akin to demanding that Crosby play a more "cerebral" game like Kariya/ Spezza instead of being a beast down low. It wouldn't make any sense.
Now add that Kessel doesn't slow things down. However with a prolific scorer like Pavelski, that can be achieved. In fact Pav is hardly a second liner as a setup man nor does he play a skating game. What he does like to is generating shots which helps open up things up for Kessel.
Kadri, unfortunately, doesn't play that kind of game. He could opt for a Savard-esque role but you'd need a Lucic-type on the wing. It's also hard to deny the importance of the presence of Chara and Wideman who have speed through the puck. I actually wouldn't be surprised if Kessel's numbers further plummet if the idea is that we further develop Gardiner and Rielly's game. Those two will require forwards that can support them. That being said, I think we either retain Phaneuf's services, trial Granberg similar to Gunnarsson under Carlyle, pair him with Gardiner and hope that we can maintain his production.
i.e.
Panik - C - Kessel
Gardiner - Granberg
It'd be a shame using Kadri in that role. He's a Forsberg-type. That includes holding onto the puck while his wingers play an involved game. Yes, I expect him to be a two-way beast under Babcock but not on the same line as Kessel. I can't see Bozak being the C either and, unlike last season, Gardiner has the mobility to be a conservative puck rusher. In that case, Holland is the only suitable centre as a North-South shoot-first type.
PS: JVR being moved is probably part of the plan.
My opinion has not changed, I've been open to trading him if the right deal is there but think hewould flourish on another team, but also think that he could have a valuable role to play in a deeper, more structured, younger Leafs d-core. Months ago I was suggesting that if we were to draft Provorov( when we looking at drafting 6-8 for a timestamp) then I'd strongly consider keeping DP (a quick check shows that I was saying it again, but this time about Hanifin on May 16th- before Babcock). Why is his graph sliding? There are d men contributing in significant roles between the ages of 33 and 38 in this league. Why is Dion going to magically turn into a pumpkin when the clock strikes 34? Might he? Yes. Is it anything near certaintly? Hell no.
His graph is not sliding? really
He is not the same player, he used to be and i don't see any improvement even in the future
No he's not, but that's because he's not playing the same game. When he came here he was asked to calm his game down, not be as flashy, and step into the role of an all situation number one d-man. He was actually praised for it too, and it seemed to be working.
He's just not Drew Doughty. Not many puck rushing defenceman can somehow simply their game without sacrificing their offence. It's the main reason why Hjalmarsson is so pivotal under Chicago's system. Keith is freed up to work more on the offensive side.
P.K. Subban, interestingly, is rounding up but Markov is the Brian Leetch-style puck mover on that pairing. That kind of stability is what allows Subban to continue to over-handle the puck.
Brown Dog
Registered User
- Jun 23, 2007
- 5,767
- 4,936
Yeah, he does. For many reasons.
But mostly because what this team needs more than anything is a complete re-haul. And that can't be achieved without moving on from the captain of the most disastrous chapter in Maple Leafs history.
Brown Dog
Registered User
- Jun 23, 2007
- 5,767
- 4,936
JVR (like Bernier) is an interesting case. Two years ago he looked like an emerging stud and cornerstone for the future.
He's young enough that he could still be in his prime on the other side of the rebuild--and (unlike Bernier) his contract in the meantime is a non-issue.
Then again, he may also be the most appealing trade chip on the roster--the most likely to get those draft picks we want to give to Hunter.
Guess it comes down to whether Shanacock considers him a "man" or if they group him in with Kessel as just another flake.
If Dion gets traded or not IMO really has to do with offers we receive. If Babs really likes him then maybe the price goes up a little.
At the end of the day it's going to come down to the usual stuff. Value of package being offered for Phaneuf versus what he brings to the Leafs.
I think our team is enduring two rebuilds. One is rebuilding the scouting/development system which is going to be what ultimately brings us success. Two is the on ice product now and how to manage our assets to help develope our young players on the big club. At the same time turning players into draft picks or young prospects for our development system. It is going to be a difficult balancing act right now. You don't want your top prospects coming into a losing situation but you want to trade assets for more draft picks so your team keeps growing into what you want it to be.
I would keep Phaneuf one more year. Hope Phaneuf has a very good year so his value is high. Hope this extra year with Phaneuf taking the heat gives Reilly valuable development time. It is a lot easier to manage Reilly's exposure to really tough situations if he isn't forced to play them all the time. Really work Reilly into that lead dog role and supplant Phaneuf.
At the end of the day it's going to come down to the usual stuff. Value of package being offered for Phaneuf versus what he brings to the Leafs.
I think our team is enduring two rebuilds. One is rebuilding the scouting/development system which is going to be what ultimately brings us success. Two is the on ice product now and how to manage our assets to help develope our young players on the big club. At the same time turning players into draft picks or young prospects for our development system. It is going to be a difficult balancing act right now. You don't want your top prospects coming into a losing situation but you want to trade assets for more draft picks so your team keeps growing into what you want it to be.
I would keep Phaneuf one more year. Hope Phaneuf has a very good year so his value is high. Hope this extra year with Phaneuf taking the heat gives Reilly valuable development time. It is a lot easier to manage Reilly's exposure to really tough situations if he isn't forced to play them all the time. Really work Reilly into that lead dog role and supplant Phaneuf.
How does that benefit Reilly, Kadri, Holland, Gardiner, Nylander, Percy and this years 4th overall?
Rushing kids into the NHL because you lack NHL talent or putting kids in situations they aren't ready for doesn't help them.
hotpaws
Registered User
- Nov 21, 2009
- 21,663
- 6,250
Why would we have to rush kids when there's always plenty of Winnick/Santo type players available every summer that we can pick up as ufa's until our prospects are ready ?
The only reason to keep PK/DP is if we believe we can build a winner with/around them in the very near future or if the the offers are so bad it doesn't make any sense to move them at this time . No one running the team now is tied to any of these player and they're not going to tie there future with the Leafs to a core that has failed miserably the last 3 full seasons .
Jimmy Firecracker
Fire Sheldon.
Yep, and I don't think Shanahan and company believe that we can at all. And honestly it's damned near impossible to do so. Sure we could mortgage the future again trying to bring in core guys that could push us over the top, but the Leafs have been there done that and aren't likely to try it again. Not to mention to acquire said players would still take more than what little futures we have, so we'd be adding to this "core" by subtracting from it as well. Free Agency isn't what it used to be, and overpaying for the second-class guys that do make it to July 1st would only serve to bloat our cap. Draft is the only way we can acquire the talent we need, and by the time any of those guys are fully prepared to win, Kessel and Phaneuf will be past their prime, taking up valuable cap space while they're at it.
- Status
