Curtis Lazar

[Xamar*]

[mod] Over the past 5 years:

Karlsson has been by far the leading offensive dman.
Stone emerged from a 28 point 6th rounder to a 64 point NHL rookie.
Hoffman went from being a speedy overager to the leading goal scorer rookie and a 48 pt player.
Kyle Turris went from being a guy with a career high in 25 points to being a 55-65 point top line player.
Zibanejad has scored at a 42pt pace in his short career, and as a 22 year old is on pace for over 70 points. Before the Arizona game, we had 5 guys in the top 25 scorers in the league.
Silfverberg, after scoring 19 points in 48 games in his rookie year, has failed to progress offensively in any meaningful increment.

Lazar, in his first 75 games playing an almost exclusively defensive role as a 19/20 year old, has scored at a 20 point pace. You don't think he will hit 30.

Other similar players we have drafted in the past include Foligno, Fisher, Laich, and Vermette.

As a 20 year old rookie, Foligno scored 9 points in 45 games.

As a 19 year old rookie, Fisher scored 9 in 32. The next year, he had 19 in 60, and the year after he had 24 in 58. As a 25 year old, Fisher broke out, scoring 22 goals and 44 points in 68 games. In his 10 post-lockout seasons, he has scored at a pace of 20-30 goals/82 games in every season but 1, and has paced above 50 points in all seasons but 2.

Laich played his rookie year as a 22/23 year old, scoring 21 points in 73 games. He followed that up with 18 in 73, before breaking out with 37 the next year - as a 24/25 year old. The following four years, he scored between 40-60 points.

Vermette played as a 21 year old in his rookie season, scoring 14 points in 73 games. After a full season in the AHL due to the lockout, Vermette returned as a 23 year old and scored 33 points in 82 games. In the next 5 seasons, he scored between 39 and 65 points. Since then, he has scored at a consistent 35-45 point pace.

The Bottom Line: none of these guys posses tools that Lazar doesn't.

None of those players play here anymore. None of them have put up more than 53 points with with the Sens regardless of what their pace was. [mod]

 

[edguy]

So Lazar was 17th overall pick...but not expected to be offensively gifted...just a 3rd liner w character? We coulda had Anthony Mantha, Nic Petan, Adam Erne...IMO Lazar had better have more upside than 3rd liner to justify 17th pick

Yup cause if your not a first line scorer your no good right? SMH.. there's people who are picked higher every year that do less than Lazar.. look at guys like Grigorenko. Gormley and G. Reinhart all picked higher and barely able to stick in the NHL. 3rd and 4th line guys are just as important on the ice as your top 6

 

[Larionov]

So Lazar was 17th overall pick...but not expected to be offensively gifted...just a 3rd liner w character? We coulda had Anthony Mantha, Nic Petan, Adam Erne...IMO Lazar had better have more upside than 3rd liner to justify 17th pick

Check out the last, say, 10 years or so of the NHL Entry Draft, and look at the guys drafted in the 15-20 range. You will be blown away at the number of guys who completely washed out, and how many of them are barely hanging on in pro hockey. Brian Burke is fond of pointing out that only half of NHL first round picks ever sign a significant second NHL contract. If Lazar ends up being a consistent NHL third liner who can check, kill penalties and score 15 goals a year, he will be ahead of 90% of guys drafted in and around his slot in the draft...

 

[Boud]

So Lazar was 17th overall pick...but not expected to be offensively gifted...just a 3rd liner w character? We coulda had Anthony Mantha, Nic Petan, Adam Erne...IMO Lazar had better have more upside than 3rd liner to justify 17th pick

The question is not if he has the potential to be a 50 point player, the comment made is that he ''sucks offensively'' and that he was overrated. Do you expect Lazar to come in and be a factor offensively? Of course not because he isn't a particularly talented player offensively, he's not creative and has never been. He scores garbage goals around the net, goes to get the pucks in the corners and is always used in a defensive role against other teams top lines since he was in junior. He's always been a reliable player defensively and was able to score in Junior but being able to produce at that level does no equal production in the NHL (I mean it's not very hard to score in juniors but when you get to the NHL you need more skill and creativity unless you crash the net and get rebounds.).


Every year some guys with less talent and more character are taken before guys with more talent. Draft position doesn't always have something to do with talent. Just like this year we decided to take Colin White who's a solid all around player over Dan Sprong and even Travis Konecny who has much more offensive talent. Murray has been known to be drafting ''character guys'' like Lazar and White over talent. Guys like Dymtro Timashov taken in the late rounds have more talent than Gabriel Gagné who was taken in the 2nd round. Mantha was known to have attitude issues (just like Sprong and it both reflected on draft day) and Murray won't go for these guys. Nick Petan is 5'9'' need I say more? And there's no way you take Erne before Lazar on draft day, 15 teams in between agree on that. The problem with guys like Petan and Mantha, is that if they fail to play a top 6 role they'll likely play a couple years in the NHL and fade away. Guys like Lazar are safe picks to play in the NHL for years to come because they can play anywhere in your lineup and they are good defensively. Character guys are worth as mcuh as talented guys in this league. Look at how much we got for Fisher when we traded him. Anyways, not the point, Lazar was not cdrafted to be an offensive star, that's clear. I think he'll be a 50 point player someday but to expect that at 20 years old is not realistic.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

None of those players play here anymore. None of them have put up more than 53 points with with the Sens regardless of what their pace was. [mod]

Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman, Turris, and Zibanejad all most certainly do still play here. And all those guys (besides Laich) topped 40 points with us.

 

[God Says No]

I consider Lazar a 3rd/4th liner right now at 20 years old. If he stayed healthy, I believe he would have hit 20 points this year with ease.

The future is hard to predict, but he could develop a bit more of a scoring touch. Nothing spectacular but a 40 point 2nd line wing that is defensively responsible.

 

[mcnorth]

I am perfectly content to have Lazar be a competent professional hockey player who plays in our bottom six, hits, kills penalties, and chips in offensively now and again. Really, I'm fine if Zibby is on the third line winning face-offs and doing much the same and scoring a little more often. Really I am... if neither first round pick, and this includes White also, develops into the second line center behind Turris it's not an issue for me.

What's an issue for me is if the Ottawa Senators organization doesn't do something about it and doesn't acquire a legit second line center. We blame Zibby for not being a second line center (he is - it's one of those silly circular arguments that comes due to expectation vs the statistical reality of second line center production) when we should be blaming the organization for not icing a second line center. It's a strange thing that we always seem to blame players for something they aren't, and it makes it difficult to appreciate them for what they do offer. Really, it's on management to recognize the holes and fill them... and if they're not going to do that tell us you got it wrong, or admit it's just not that important to you to win b/c it's too damned expensive.

Anyway, point is, Lazar is looking a little shaky but he's young and working through it. He's a kid - they look shaky learning how to ride a bike and when learning to play 82 games in the NHL.

 

[Cosmix]

Some days I wonder what the Senators team would be like if they had hired Yzerman as the GM.

 

[Othello*]

Some days I wonder what the Senators team would be like if they had hired Yzerman as the GM.

We'd have a GM that gets things done. Stralman,Coburn and Garrison would look great as Sens

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

We'd have a GM that gets things done. Stralman,Coburn and Garrison would look great as Sens

That's not how it works.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

We'd have a GM that gets things done. Stralman,Coburn and Garrison would look great as Sens

Who the GM is doesn't magically make the team richer

 

[WhiteLight*]

Who the GM is doesn't magically make the team richer

Sorry, but that's a lazy excuse.


[table="head;width=400]Player|Salary (millions)
Milan Michalek|4
Chris Phillips|2.5
Chris Neil|1.5
Colin Greening|2.75
Jared Cowen|3.7
Patrick Wiercioch|2.7
Alex Chiasson|1.2
Zack Smith|2
Total|20.35[/table]

There's your money

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Sorry, but that's a lazy excuse.


[table="head;width=400]Player|Salary (millions)
Milan Michalek|4
Chris Phillips|2.5
Chris Neil|1.5
Colin Greening|2.75
Jared Cowen|3.7
Patrick Wiercioch|2.7
Alex Chiasson|1.2
Zack Smith|2
Total|20.35[/table]

There's your money

So a gm who "gets things done" would be more conservative when it comes to signing players than Murray?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And that's a lazy chart

All teams have contracts that aren't optimal and we don't have access to all players in the NHL either

Simply listing contracts you think are not great does absolutely nothing to address the fact that we have limited funds and are not attractive for UFAs

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yup cause if your not a first line scorer your no good right? SMH.. there's people who are picked higher every year that do less than Lazar.. look at guys like Grigorenko. Gormley and G. Reinhart all picked higher and barely able to stick in the NHL. 3rd and 4th line guys are just as important on the ice as your top 6

This message needs attention across the threads on this board.

Play without the puck is ultimately more important than play with the puck. Cuz usually 1 guy on the ice has the puck at any one time. I'm happy we have Lazar. Could he have gone back to Junior last year yah.. sure.. But the guy can play in the NHL now because of his play without the puck. His offense and play with the puck will improve. His instincts are good.

 

[WhiteLight*]

So a gm who "gets things done" would be more conservative when it comes to signing players than Murray?

?

Money is not an excuse. There is clearly some lying around. It's just not being used properly. Obviously.

And that's a lazy chart

All teams have contracts that aren't optimal and we don't have access to all players in the NHL either

Simply listing contracts you think are not great does absolutely nothing to address the fact that we have limited funds and are not attractive for UFAs

Signing Greening was a bad idea at the time it happened
Signing Phillips was a bad idea at the time it happened
Signing Neil for that length was a bad idea at the time it happened
Signing Michalek was arguably a bad idea at the time it happened (imo it was)
Cowen got way too much money for the performance he had put forth (see 2015 RFA signings - Murray can be extra frugal when needed)
Wiercioch got way too much money for the performance he had put forth (see 2015 RFA signings - Murray can be extra frugal when needed)
Chiasson should have been dumped out right.


They are costly mistakes that would have freed up money for 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. I don't believe there are no UFAs that want to come here. Money talks and other teams were short on money in general around the league this summer

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah sure whatever you say

"It was a bad idea because I say so"

Stay in school kids!

 

[Othello*]

That list makes me shudder

 

[Othello*]

Yeah sure whatever you say

"It was a bad idea because I say so"

Stay in school kids!

Please tell us why it wasn't a bad idea?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Please tell us why it wasn't a bad idea?

We've all seen these debates over and over again over the years

I am not going to indulge you

Let it be simply known that "it was a bad idea because there were better players we could have may had and he isn't as good as we had hoped he would be" is not an argument

 

[WhiteLight*]

The loser and defeatist attitude is so awful.

"we have no money", "UFAs hate Ottawa". If that's what you think, that's what's going to happen. We need a different culture. Someone who inspires confidence.

Mediocrity is a choice. Excuses are a deadly disease and ultimately ensure failure

 

[Gil Gunderson]

And that's a lazy chart

All teams have contracts that aren't optimal and we don't have access to all players in the NHL either

Murray knew we had a budget and still gave Phillips and Michalek 6.5 mil. He then said he couldn't make moves the following year because teams couldn't take back salary. I think he shares some of the blame.

Those signings were criticized from the get-go as well.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The loser and defeatist attitude is so awful.

"we have no money", "UFAs hate Ottawa". If that's what you think, that's what's going to happen. We need a different culture. Someone who inspires confidence.

Mediocrity is a choice. Excuses are a deadly disease and ultimately ensure failure

Go WhiteLight! Go Whitelight! Go

 

[Hale The Villain]

Murray can thank the scouting staff for saving his job. 14/20 players on the roster are a direct result of the scouting staff, not Murray. Of the players that he acquired:

2 were acquired by using teams young depth, or in other words the fruits of the scouting staff (Turris, Ryan)
2 were acquired in bad returns for our top players (Michalek, Chiasson)
1 was acquired by trading an equally valued player (Methot)
1 was acquired through UFA (MacArthur)

That's pathetic. Considering that we'd be better off without the Ryan trade, and that Michalek + Chiasson were acquired in bad packages by dealing far superior players, and that Methot and Foligno is basically a wash value wise - the only NHL players that Murray has acquired without giving up too much value, giving up the better player or dealing a similar valued player for another, are Turris and MacArthur.

Murray does deserve credit for putting an elite scouting staff and development system in place, but we could fire Murray right now and still have the same scouting staff. Our scouting staff combined with a general manager that could get good value in trades and attract free agents would make this team a contender - a Tampa Bay-type team.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Please tell us why it wasn't a bad idea?

Go WhiteLight! Go Whitelight! Go

Thank you

Murray can thank the scouting staff for saving his job. 14/20 players on the roster are a direct result of the scouting staff, not Murray. Of the players that he acquired:

2 were acquired by using teams young depth, or in other words the fruits of the scouting staff (Turris, Ryan)
2 were acquired in bad returns for our top players (Michalek, Chiasson)
1 was acquired by trading an equally valued player (Methot)
1 was acquired through UFA (MacArthur)

That's pathetic. Considering that we'd be better off without the Ryan trade, and that Michalek + Chiasson were acquired in bad packages by dealing far superior players, and that Methot and Foligno is basically a wash value wise - the only NHL players that Murray has acquired without giving up too much value, giving up the better player or dealing a similar valued player for another, are Turris and MacArthur.

Murray does deserve credit for putting an elite scouting staff and development system in place, but we could fire Murray right now and still have the same scouting staff. Our scouting staff combined with a general manager that could get good value in trades and attract free agents would make this team a contender - a Tampa Bay-type team.

Agreed.

There's no plan in place to make this team better. Right now it's develop prospects, hope for the best and cross your fingers with a revolving door of random coaches.

I don't get it. I didn't get the Ryan trade and I don't get what was going on right now.

At the time of the Ryan trade, I thought it was too early in the rebuild to make a move like that (an all in type move, one you make if you're trying to contend). But they did it. They were going for it. Now, fast forward two+ years later and still, no other moves besides that one are made to bolster the team, to make a push for it.

So, are we going for it or not? Seems like they were 2 years ago. Now, with the kids developed more (Hoffman, Stone especially), they seem not to be going for it (no off-season moves in 2015). So which one is it? Why was 2013 appropriate for a push but not now?

Just a bunch of half-ass attempts all around, all the time. Half-assing it FTW. Where's the inner ninja when you need it