OT: Covid-19 (Part 54) New Year, New Shots

[holy]

So much whining and hand wringing to avoid being a nice person. Downside of the vaccine is negligible. Value to older people of having vaccinated younger people has dropped with omicron but it’s not zero. I don’t get why people are doing mental gymnastics just to show how little they care about others.

Edit: previous to omicron it was obviously best for everyone that everyone be vaccinated, so if you aren't vaccinated it's not because of this data. With omicron it may be less critical but if all vaccination does is reduce the period people are contagious it will still reduce the spread. Do you seriously think obese people should die because of their habits or metabolisms? How about old people? Immunocompromised people like cancer patients? If you can read these charts and see your chances of problems are low then why not look at the vaccine risks that are orders of magnitude lower and just get it?

The reason people don’t wanna get vaccinated is because within 6 months they saw the virus mutate into something much less deadly and they’re figuring they might as well ride it out. You can’t agree on what Omicron is and then say “yeah but they should’ve been vaccinated” when they were waiting to see if something like this would happen and it did.

That’s why I’m of the belief you guys are not going to get the last 15-20% of people to vaccinate on their own free will. They feel vindicated on not having gotten the vaccine and I don’t blame em. If they’ve gone this long without doing it they’ll wait it out.

 

[Licou]

Nah. I’m not buying that anyone here really gives a shit about a young person getting “****ed up” by Covid in the long term. Somehow people losing their jobs and their ability to in turn take care of themselves is fine, yet I’m supposed to believe this is all just love and caring coming from those who want young people to be forced to take the vaccine.

And I know this is going to upset some people but not everyone believes the data like you guys. There’s a lot of people who believe that these soccer stars you’re seeing with scarred heart tissue or whatever it is, is being caused by the vaccine rather than the virus. I’m not saying I believe it, but it’s not exactly like these stories are really going to scare people into getting the vaccine when they think they have a really good chance of not ending up in the hospital which is true by looking at the numbers. People are gonna use the stories to run with whatever narrative they want tbh.

Also the goal posts are shifting now that it isn’t about people clogging up the health care system. When I was debating last week that’s all that mattered. Now that the numbers don’t agree you’re worried about the individual’s health all of a sudden. No one needs you to worry, and I doubt some people’s ability to worry about the “other” when I’ve seen posts laughing at anti vaxxers who end up dying in these threads. If a young person gets ****ed up from Covid and didn’t get the vaccine, just laugh at them.

I am with you on this.

I personally believe that vaccination is a safer alternative than catching the virus as a naive host, even for a young person, but I also think people shouldn't be punished if they don't vaccinate. That goes against my values too.

 

[Treb]

The reason people don’t wanna get vaccinated is because within 6 months they saw the virus mutate into something much less deadly and they’re figuring they might as well ride it out. You can’t agree on what Omicron is and then say “yeah but they should’ve been vaccinated” when they were waiting to see if something like this would happen and it did.

That’s why I’m of the belief you guys are not going to get the last 15-20% of people to vaccinate on their own free will. They feel vindicated on not having gotten the vaccine and I don’t blame em. If they’ve gone this long without doing it they’ll wait it out.

Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta and Omicron are all here because of the worldwide lack of vaccination. Not vaccinating and "riding it out" is encouraging additional variants.

PS: Yes I know some of them appeared before vaccination, point remains.

 

[holy]

Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta and Omicron are all here because of the worldwide lack of vaccination. Not vaccinating and "riding it out" is encouraging additional variants.

PS: Yes I know some of them appeared before vaccination, point remains.

Does contracting Omicron give you antibodies that protect you from the other variants?

What’s the data on how all the other variants are still spreading?

Isn’t it more likely we’d see variants emerge in other parts of the world rather than in our U40 and U30 population? Seems like the humane thing to do is donate the excess vaccines at some point and get the rest of the world vaccinated, especially since if a new variant comes out there’s not much telling if the vaccine will offer adequate protection against it (actually don’t know if this is true, just seemed to be what the general narrative about the vaccines was when Omicron first hit the scene).

 

[Crusher117]

It's insane how misinformation can be still spread so easily without any consequences.

 

[Treb]

Does contracting Omicron give you antibodies that protect you from the other variants?

What’s the data on how all the other variants are still spreading?

Isn’t it more likely we’d see variants emerge in other parts of the world rather than in our U40 and U30 population? Seems like the humane thing to do is donate the excess vaccines at some point and get the rest of the world vaccinated, especially since if a new variant comes out there’s not much telling if the vaccine will offer adequate protection against it (actually don’t know if this is true, just seemed to be what the general narrative about the vaccines was when Omicron first hit the scene).

Infection cause viral replication.
Viral replication can cause mutations.
Mutations that are beneficial spread more.
Enough of those mutations and you have a new variant.

More infection = more replication = more mutations = more variants

Vaccine reduce infection and also viral replication once infected.

Less infection = less replication = less mutations = less variants

It doesn't matter where replication happen, the more of it that happens, the worst it will be.

3rd world countries cannot really use Pfizer/Moderna due to logistical issues so our own vaccine supply doesn't influence them.

In countries like South Africa, vaccines actually went to waste because of vaccine hesitancy.

We can't control what the other countries do, so the best we can do is protect ourselves the best we can.

 

[Licou]

Does contracting Omicron give you antibodies that protect you from the other variants?

What’s the data on how all the other variants are still spreading?

Isn’t it more likely we’d see variants emerge in other parts of the world rather than in our U40 and U30 population? Seems like the humane thing to do is donate the excess vaccines at some point and get the rest of the world vaccinated, especially since if a new variant comes out there’s not much telling if the vaccine will offer adequate protection against it (actually don’t know if this is true, just seemed to be what the general narrative about the vaccines was when Omicron first hit the scene).

Other variants are getting punted aside by omicron so far.

It's indeed more likely that new variants would emerge from a lowly vaccinated population, but at this point, it could also come from animal reservoirs. Omicron may come from a mouse apparently.
Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant - PubMed.

Also, regardless of age, immunocompromised patients are known to be a potential variant creator, as the virus can replicate an enormous amount of time in an infected host and thus have more change to mutate into something concerning.

One problem with donating our mRNA vaccines is that they require special care, namely very low storage temperatures. This is unfortunately not possible in every regions of the world.

And about immunity. You may already know this but I like repeating it because I feel this is something that is not well understood:
Vaccines, or infections, trigger the immune system in the same way. White blood cells will the invader, chop it up into single proteins, and make different antibodies that will target these exact chopped up proteins, called antigens. If a variant has mutated a lot, the antigens will not be recognized and you will get reinfected.

But the immune system also produces B cells and T cells. It's been pretty much proved at this point that T cells especially, namely the cytotoxic ones, will greatly reduce the chance of a severe illness outcome if you do get reinfected. Furthermore, past studies have shown that T cells remain in the body for a very long time.

So it looks like what will happen is that we may keep getting immune evading variants à la omicron for the foreseeable future, but our layers of immunity provided by vaccines and infections will attenuate the risks of severe illness.

Aaaanyway, lots of back and forth as always. But it can be done respectfully!

 

[Perrah]

Nah. I’m not buying that anyone here really gives a shit about a young person getting “****ed up” by Covid in the long term. Somehow people losing their jobs and their ability to in turn take care of themselves is fine, yet I’m supposed to believe this is all just love and caring coming from those who want young people to be forced to take the vaccine.

And I know this is going to upset some people but not everyone believes the data like you guys. There’s a lot of people who believe that these soccer stars you’re seeing with scarred heart tissue or whatever it is, is being caused by the vaccine rather than the virus. I’m not saying I believe it, but it’s not exactly like these stories are really going to scare people into getting the vaccine when they think they have a really good chance of not ending up in the hospital which is true by looking at the numbers. People are gonna use the stories to run with whatever narrative they want tbh.

Also the goal posts are shifting now that it isn’t about people clogging up the health care system. When I was debating last week that’s all that mattered. Now that the numbers don’t agree you’re worried about the individual’s health all of a sudden. No one needs you to worry, and I doubt some people’s ability to worry about the “other” when I’ve seen posts laughing at anti vaxxers who end up dying in these threads. If a young person gets ****ed up from Covid and didn’t get the vaccine, just laugh at them.

1)Like all the mental health advocates now, that care about opioid abuse and such? That just happen to be anti-covid vaccine and lockdowns. Where were all those people before? Not giving 2 flying f***s is where. So noble all those people are.

2) Some people believe the vaccine is being used to kill off the population. Imagine that, Pfizer is simultaneously killing off all their customer base and trying to profiteer at the same time. Killing the golden goose. People can believe whatever they want, data be damned. What is more likely, that Alphonso Davies had myocarditis X time ago when he got the vaccine, played soccer internationally with it only for it to be discovered after he got a covid infection? Or that he got myocarditis from the infection?

 

[waffledave]

View media item 10053
At those rates, if an entire city of Montreal worth of under 40's was infected around 40 people would end up in critical care with COVID.

At the rates of the U30 demographic, if an entire city of Montreal's worth of under 30's was infected less than 10 people would require critical care with COVID.

Now if you have some sort of data showing these numbers are not accurate for Canada, or you have the number of U30/40 patients in Quebec hospitals taking up beds due to COVID right now or the number of U30/40 patients taking up critical care beds in Quebec hospitals due to COVID right now that could paint a different picture and dispel this 'myth'.

Notwithstanding that information, I would certainly posit that spending billions of dollars and untold thousands of hours of healthcare staffs' time to vaccinate the U30 and even the U40 demographic is of quite dubious utility. From this data, a person in the 60-69 demographic is over 80x as likely to end up in critical care as an U30, and over 20x as likely as a 30-40.

Then you can consider that filtering out for other factors like obesity or serious pre-existing conditions and those numbers for a 'healthy' U30 and U40 would plummet even further.... well the 'scientific' argument for mandated vaccination of these demographics appears to simply falls to pieces.

Right, so the crux of the argument here is "As a younger person, I will probably be fine if I get COVID so there's no reason for me to get vaccinated."

What an incredibly selfish point of view. No wonder we are in the mess we're in.

Vaccines help to prevent infection, which reduces spread.
When infection happens, they lower infection time and reduce spread.
A highly vaccinated population is less likely to produce new variants.
New variants will continuously cause surges and spread like wildfire among unvaccinated and undervaccinated people. This is an epidemic disease.
We will continue to see problems in our healthcare system as long as this continues. We will not be able to have a normal life again until this continues.
And, prepare for a whole new set of issues if COVID does indeed cause long-term damage to those who've been infected. Like we have seen with countless other viruses.

It's a cycle, and it will never end until we ALL get on board.

Have to think that if many of you people were born a few decades earlier, you'd be scrambling for any reason possible to avoid the polio vaccine. I suppose the majority of you don't believe it made much sense to vaccinate against polio either.

 

[waffledave]

Nah. I’m not buying that anyone here really gives a shit about a young person getting “****ed up” by Covid in the long term. Somehow people losing their jobs and their ability to in turn take care of themselves is fine, yet I’m supposed to believe this is all just love and caring coming from those who want young people to be forced to take the vaccine.

Don't get me wrong, I do not give a single shit about people who end up getting f***ed up by COVID after they willingly ignore the global medical consensus on vaccination.
The only reason it's brought up is because a lot of people don't see long-term damage as a possibility. They think it's a one and done thing.
If they know this and they still don't care, then f*** 'em. Really, f*** 'em. Give them the Hermain Cain award and move on.

I am not worried about these peoples' health. I am highlighting issues that they may not know about. In the end, it probably doesn't matter to most of them, because they believe what they want to believe, even in the face of death as we have seen in the news.

But at the end of the day, we aren't moving on from this until virtually everyone, on the planet, is vaccinated. Likely multiple times, until the technology is refined or the successive rounds of vaccination build things up enough to prevent the spread of whatever next variant comes along.

It's not good enough to just let it rip through the population multiple times to build up natural immunity. That will never happen. We will just keep seeing more variants coming out of undervaccinated populations. Smallpox existed for thousands of years, it never just went away despite ripping through populations generation after generation.

 

[dcyhabs]

The reason people don’t wanna get vaccinated is because within 6 months they saw the virus mutate into something much less deadly and they’re figuring they might as well ride it out. You can’t agree on what Omicron is and then say “yeah but they should’ve been vaccinated” when they were waiting to see if something like this would happen and it did.

That’s why I’m of the belief you guys are not going to get the last 15-20% of people to vaccinate on their own free will. They feel vindicated on not having gotten the vaccine and I don’t blame em. If they’ve gone this long without doing it they’ll wait it out.

The problem is really that a bunch of people decided they didn't want to get vaccinated because of social media and "nyah, nyah, you can't make me." Hindsight doesn't work better for covid than it does for draft picks. You are ignoring the many unvaccinated people who died of delta and previous variants as well. A surprising number of vocal antivax pundits have succeeded in letting covid silence them permanently.

For omicron it doesn't make as big a difference, hundreds of preventable deaths instead of tens of thousands presumably. It's a win, I suppose, obtuseness kills fewer people. I'm not sure I understand being proud to yell about not caring about yourself or your neighbors. My sympathy for the unvaccinated people who get sick or die is waning but not my sympathy for the cancer patients who have their surgeries cancelled.

With good luck we'll have to go through this all again in a few months if the Walter Reed vaccine is effective against omicron.

 

[holy]

Don't get me wrong, I do not give a single shit about people who end up getting f***ed up by COVID after they willingly ignore the global medical consensus on vaccination.
The only reason it's brought up is because a lot of people don't see long-term damage as a possibility. They think it's a one and done thing.
If they know this and they still don't care, then f*** 'em. Really, f*** 'em. Give them the Hermain Cain award and move on.

I am not worried about these peoples' health. I am highlighting issues that they may not know about. In the end, it probably doesn't matter to most of them, because they believe what they want to believe, even in the face of death as we have seen in the news.

But at the end of the day, we aren't moving on from this until virtually everyone, on the planet, is vaccinated. Likely multiple times, until the technology is refined or the successive rounds of vaccination build things up enough to prevent the spread of whatever next variant comes along.

It's not good enough to just let it rip through the population multiple times to build up natural immunity. That will never happen. We will just keep seeing more variants coming out of undervaccinated populations. Smallpox existed for thousands of years, it never just went away despite ripping through populations generation after generation.

Didn’t the regular flu go through the same thing? I don’t remember there being a mandatory vaccine that we had to take for the flu. It was optional, which is what people are hoping that these vaccines are going to be moving forward.

And eh, at least you’re honest. I think people do know and are taking their own risks based more on what they see in the real world over the fear-mongering articles about a young person suffering terribly from Covid way later. If they can make an article for single case instances it’s more reason for me to not put that much stock into it.

Looking at polio and small pox there are obvious differences between Covid and those other two things.

 

[Treb]

Didn’t the regular flu go through the same thing? I don’t remember there being a mandatory vaccine that we had to take for the flu. It was optional, which is what people are hoping that these vaccines are going to be moving forward.

And eh, at least you’re honest. I think people do know and are taking their own risks based more on what they see in the real world over the fear-mongering articles about a young person suffering terribly from Covid way later. If they can make an article for single case instances it’s more reason for me to not put that much stock into it.

Looking at polio and small pox there are obvious differences between Covid and those other two things.

What are those obvious differences between polio and Covid?

 

[holy]

What are those obvious differences between polio and Covid?

The fact that it affected kids and Covid affects the aging population. That’s a pretty big one there. The potential end result of leaving children paralyzed is a much more terrifying image than anything anyone has seen with Covid.

If Covid was killing children, then I’d think vaccination rates would be higher for sure. When it affects the older population disproportionately it becomes a more interesting conundrum, especially in regards to young people not caring about them. Makes you wonder why is that the case?

 

[Treb]

The fact that it affected kids and Covid affects the aging population. That’s a pretty big one there. The potential end result of leaving children paralyzed is a much more terrifying image than anything anyone has seen with Covid.

If Covid was killing children, then I’d think vaccination rates would be higher for sure. When it affects the older population disproportionately it becomes a more interesting conundrum, especially in regards to young people not caring about them. Makes you wonder why is that the case?

In the worst year of polio, around 3,000 Americans died.

In a year of Covid, around 500,000 Americans died.

 

[holy]

In the worst year of polio, around 3,000 Americans died.

In a year of Covid, around 500,000 Americans died.

Just shows you how much children are valued compared to the elderly.

That and the value of life has taken a dive as well. Back then there were World Wars occurring within decades of each other wiping out another portion of relatively young people from the population. Post war and the idea of their children not being able to socialize properly was enough to get the entire population to vaccinate.

 

[waffledave]

The fact that it affected kids and Covid affects the aging population. That’s a pretty big one there. The potential end result of leaving children paralyzed is a much more terrifying image than anything anyone has seen with Covid.

If Covid was killing children, then I’d think vaccination rates would be higher for sure. When it affects the older population disproportionately it becomes a more interesting conundrum, especially in regards to young people not caring about them. Makes you wonder why is that the case?

The odds of a child dying or being paralyzed from polio are tiny.

It is a virtually asymptomatic disease for 99.5% of the population.

Only about ~3% (for children) of that 0.5% end up dying. Paralysis is often temporary and it really depends on the type of infection - it was quite rare.

Polio is far less contagious than COVID too. And it existed for thousands of years. It never stopped or disappeared until we started vaccinating for it. And guess what? Many doses of polio vaccine are required.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

The curfew worked well...

 

[Kriss E]

Just got boosted. Let's gooooooooo

 

[waffledave]

The curfew worked well...

Maybe we should increase opportunities for people to spread it around. Would you prefer that?

 

[Per Sjoblom]

I am with you on this.

I personally believe that vaccination is a safer alternative than catching the virus as a naive host, even for a young person, but I also think people shouldn't be punished if they don't vaccinate. That goes against my values too.

Here's an example of someone who got infected on purpose:


Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally

 

[Licou]

Here's an example of someone who got infected on purpose:


Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally

That's a pretty sad story

 

[Crusher117]

Here's an example of someone who got infected on purpose:


Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally

I wonder if this gets classified as a suicide and her family doesn't get her life insurance assuming she has one.

 

[dcyhabs]

Just got boosted. Let's gooooooooo

Wait a week or two.

 

[Kriss E]

Wait a week or two.

For what?