Could McDavid surpass Crosby all-time (in your eyes) if he does not win a Cup?

[Frank Drebin]

He's already passed him.

Sorry Crosby boys

 

[bambamcam4ever]

In Crosby's best playoffs he didn't win the Cup (08).

In Ovechkin's best playoffs he didn't make it to the third round (09).

In McDavid's best playoffs he didn't make it to the Cup (22).

In all three examples the player was arguably the best player in the world and played like it in the playoffs.

One man cannot win a Cup on their own.

All three have had bad playoff performances and can rightfully be criticized for that. But they also played out of their minds and lost the Cup.

Gretzky and Orr had all time great playoff performances in years they lost the Cup.

If peak Gretzky and Orr can't win a Cup on their own, it's not fair to put that burden on any player.

Ovechkin in his best playoffs was outplayed by Crosby then

 

[x Tame Impala]

In Crosby's best playoffs he didn't win the Cup (08).

In Ovechkin's best playoffs he didn't make it to the third round (09).

In McDavid's best playoffs he didn't make it to the Cup (22).

In all three examples the player was arguably the best player in the world and played like it in the playoffs.

One man cannot win a Cup on their own.

All three have had bad playoff performances and can rightfully be criticized for that. But they also played out of their minds and lost the Cup.

Gretzky and Orr had all time great playoff performances in years they lost the Cup.

If peak Gretzky and Orr can't win a Cup on their own, it's not fair to put that burden on any player.

Orr, Gretzky, Crosby, and Ovechkin all won Cups though. This thread is about McDavid never winning one.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ovechkin in his best playoffs was outplayed by Crosby then

They both had 21 points at the end of round two.

The key difference being Malkin had 19, while Backstrom only had 15.

Ovechkin was on fire in 2009, but the Penguins minus Crosby were just plain better than the Capitals minus Ovechkin.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

If McDavid strung together three or four playoffs of this prior magnitude but wasn't able to win a Cup, it would clearly be the GM's fault that he never won a Cup and not him.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

They both had 21 points at the end of round two.

The key difference being Malkin had 19, while Backstrom only had 15.

Ovechkin was on fire in 2009, but the Penguins minus Crosby were just plain better than the Capitals minus Ovechkin.

This is where watching the games is important. As incredible as OV was, Crosby was still better. The reason that series was close was goaltending, the Penguins skaters (Crosby being one of them) were much better. Fleury passed the puck to OV for 2 of his goals that series

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is where watching the games is important. As incredible as OV was, Crosby was still better.

No doubt, you and Sid's Mom believe that.

 

[Faceboner]

Probably but he's not gonna blow his career out the water as of right now I have sid in my top ten all time list but mcdavid has a chance to end up 5th all time

 

[Faceboner]

He's already passed him.

Sorry Crosby boys

He is on his way but crosby did have a fantastic career

 

[Frank Drebin]

He is on his way but crosby did have a fantastic career

Crosby had a hof career one of the best.

Mcdavid is just better, that's not a sleight.

 

[Video Nasty]

It’s hard for people who started watching hockey in 2005-2006 at a young age to consider that their childhood hero will be viewed by 99% of the hockey world as having been surpassed by McDavid within the next 6-8 years.

By the time McDavid is 15 seasons deep into his career and Crosby is retired, it’s going to be obvious that the guy with 6-8 Art Rosses, 4 Harts, 5-6 Lindsays, multiple dominate playoff runs with at least the inevitable Cup and Conn Smythe is the better player with the better career.

Once we have around 20 seasons to compare against the other, it’ll be back to the what if injury nonsense for Crosby supporters.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Needs a Cup. Hockey is a team sport, but when you’re comparing generational greats, Cups matter more than anything else.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Needs a Cup. Hockey is a team sport, but when you’re comparing generational greats, Cups matter more than anything else.

Do you have Beliveau ranked number 1 all time?

Where did you rank Bourque pre 2001?

 

[Garbageyuk]

Do you have Beliveau ranked number 1 all time?

Where did you rank Bourque pre 2001?

What I mean is Cup vs no Cup, he needs one in the comparison against Crosby. You can like that or not, but I’m betting that’s how the majority of people are going to feel about it.

I won’t answer your questions because it’s whataboutism and off topic.

 

[jigglysquishy]

What I mean is Cup vs no Cup, he needs one in the comparison against Crosby. You can like that or not, but I’m betting that’s how the majority of people are going to feel about it.

I won’t answer your questions because it’s whataboutism and off topic.

Bourque was commonly thought of as a top 3 defenseman all time before his Cup win.

Cup counting has no real relevance in serious discussion.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Bourque was commonly thought of as a top 3 defenseman all time before his Cup win.

Cup counting has no real relevance in serious discussion.

Ok.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ok.

I encourage you to read the History of Hockey projects. There's thousands of pages of detailed work comparing and ranking players.

Playoff performance is critical. Binary Cup counting is fairly meaningless.

Was Ovechkin not an all time great before 2018? His legacy is built ok 3peating the Pearson and his outstanding peak.

Was Bourque not an all time great before 2001? His legacy was built on 20 years of being a top 4 defenseman.

Was Jagr being a secondary player in 91 and 92 the barrier to his all time great status? His legacy was built on 4peating the Art Ross and a decade of scoring dominance.

Was Hasek not an all time great before 2002? His legacy was built of winning 6 dominant Vezinas and 2 Harts. Winning the Cup on a stacked team doesn't define him.

Evaluating players on an all time sense is more detailed than how good their GM is.

 

[Garbageyuk]

I encourage you to read the History of Hockey projects. There's thousands of pages of detailed work comparing and ranking players.

Playoff performance is critical. Binary Cup counting is fairly meaningless.

Was Ovechkin not an all time great before 2018? His legacy is built ok 3peating the Pearson and his outstanding peak.

Was Bourque not an all time great before 2011? His legacy was built on 20 years of being a top 4 defenseman.

Was Jagr being a secondary player in 91 and 92 the barrier to his all time great status? His legacy was built on 4peating the Art Ross and a decade of scoring dominance.

Was Hasek not an all time great before 2002? His legacy was built of winning 6 dominant Vezinas and 2 Harts. Winning the Cup on a stacked team doesn't define him.

Evaluating players on an all time sense is more detailed than how good their GM is.

Dude, I understand what you’re saying, but Cups are important for legacy, right or wrong. If McDavid does not win a Cup, it is going to stain his legacy a bit in discussion that pit him head to head against guys like Crosby. McDavid is already an all-time great if he retired today. But if you’re going to put him in head to head comparisons with guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr, him not winning a Cup is going to matter, period. He’d be the only one to not get it done. It would be unprecedented for a generational forward. You not liking that sentiment doesn’t change the fact that it is going to matter for most people in these discussions.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Dude, I understand what you’re saying, but Cups are important for legacy, right or wrong.

If it's wrong, why are you asserting it?

 

[KCC]

Yes he could, thats dumb.

Hes unlikely to have the longevity to match Crosby I think. Hes too reliant on explosion to be a 100 points player at 35 like Crosby is. He would need to make his team much better right now to surpass Sid. He hasnt done thst to me.

McDavid doesn't need his speed to generate offense. Although that is a big part of it. He has fantastic passing which will only help him as he gets older and loses a step.

 

[KCC]

If McDavid wins like 10 Art Rosses I don’t see how he isn’t easily better

He has already tied Crosby in terms of major regular season hardware. Both have 9 total when you combine the Hart, Ted Lindsay, Art Ross and Rocket. And he's only 25.

 

[Regal]

If McDavid strung together three or four playoffs of this prior magnitude but wasn't able to win a Cup, it would clearly be the GM's fault that he never won a Cup and not him.

Yea, while I think there will always be some who can’t separate cup from player I think the biggest thing will be his individual playoff resume. It was disappointing prior to this season but this playoffs really changed things. Dionne gets brought up a lot but he wouldn’t be criticized as much if he produced well in the playoffs despite the losses. I don’t see how anyone reasonable could expect anymore out of McDavid than what he did this year.

He has already tied Crosby in terms of major regular season hardware. Both have 9 total when you combine the Hart, Ted Lindsay, Art Ross and Rocket. And he's only 25.

To be fair, Crosby had 8 after his age 26 season and looked like he’d keep winning a bunch more, so you never know how things end up playing out. Hopefully McDavid stays at the top of his game longer though.

 

[Garbageyuk]

If it's wrong, why are you asserting it?

Who says it is? Notice I said “right or wrong”. You can decide what side you’re on. Imo, when you are comparing guys at this level, yes, it is going to be a factor.

 

[wetcoast]

1. Crosby had one Stanley Cup
2. It's questionable if Crosby ever hit the level of McDavid in these playoffs, let alone that somehow being the base of Crosby's playoff performance
3. What is weird about this playoff?

1. Crosby had been to 2 SC finals and had excellent performances both times and a much better overall playoff resume at the same age.

2. Like I said overall playoff resume at same age it's Crosby over McDavid and it's not even really that close even with the "level" McDavid hit this year.

3. Scoring in Oiler games were videogame like in the playoffs on many nights and while McDavid was pretty decent in the conference finals he wasn't be stonewalled by an all time great goalie performance either.

 

[Midnight Judges]

1. Crosby had been to 2 SC finals and had excellent performances both times...

That is blatantly false.

Here in real life Crosby went 4 of the 6 games without a point in the 2009 finals and was a non-factor.

In that series:

10 players had more goals than Crosby.

7 players had more assists.

7 players had more points.

32 players had a better plus/minus.

Crosby's PPG was a paltry .43 <-----This is not a typo.