Could McDavid surpass Crosby all-time (in your eyes) if he does not win a Cup?

[wetcoast]

That is blatantly false.

Here in real life Crosby went 4 of the 6 games without a point in the 2009 finals and was a non-factor.

In that series:

10 players had more goals than Crosby.

7 players had more assists.

7 players had more points.

32 players had a better plus/minus.

Crosby's PPG was a paltry .43 <-----This is not a typo.

Detroit played their top defensive guys against him and look at that team aside from Malkin.

But more to the point I was talking about that entire run that year, it was Crosby, Malkin then a 38 year old Bill Guerin.

 

[Steerpike]

Answering "No" to this poll is synonymous with saying "I don't understand hockey and I base my assessments on arbitrary factors."

Winning the Stanley Cup is an arbitrary factor in determining who the greatest player of all time is?

If the question was just specifically about "most talented skater of all time" then McDavid is already up there with Gretz and Lemieux . That's not really in question.

When talking "all time" though it's absurd to have him up there in terms of greatness. The whole point is to win. You can't be one of the greatest if you never win.

It's like claiming Hannibal Barca was the greatest ancient general. There's no questioning he was one of the most talented. But he never got the job done and took Rome.

The greats don't whine about extenuating circumstances. The greats won. That's why they are great.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Detroit played their top defensive guys against him and look at that team aside from Malkin.

Oh wow a top line player had to face the opponent's top defenders? That is totally unprecedented!

When Ovechkin plays, opposing teams serve their best defenders poolside martinis while Ovie skates unopposed.

Winning the Stanley Cup is an arbitrary factor in determining who the greatest player of all time is?

Actually yes, it largely is.

Winning a cup in 1951 - when there were 6 teams - vs winning a cup in 1985 - when there were 21 teams - is very different from winning a cup in 2022 - when there are 32 teams.

A blanket statement that equivocates these things is not equitable to modern players. The chances of an all-time great player going without ever winning a cup are massively higher now than they were in the O6 era, and significantly higher now than in Gretzky and Lemieux's heyday.

Lemieux never won squat without 6 other hall of famers on his team. He wasn't the GM, and he didn't control that happenstance, therefore giving him credit for it is arbitrary. Same goes for Gretzky. McDavid has never remotely had the advantage Lemieux had in 1992, so it's simply gibberish to hold McDavid to that expectation despite gargantuan relative disadvantages to what Lemieux had to work with in terms of teammates.

Nevermind that none of those championship Oilers or Penguins teams would come anywhere near fitting under a salary cap.

 

[Voight]

That is blatantly false.

Here in real life Crosby went 4 of the 6 games without a point in the 2009 finals and was a non-factor.

In that series:

10 players had more goals than Crosby.

7 players had more assists.

7 players had more points.

32 players had a better plus/minus.

Crosby's PPG was a paltry .43 <-----This is not a typo.

Tied Tyler Kennedy in points GOAT

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

No chance. Winning matters a lot.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Yes. People freak out over Cups too much when it comes to comparing players.

If Edmonton’s front office can’t put together a Cup team with McDavid and Draisaitl on their roster, that’s on Edmonton’s front office, not McDavid and Draisaitl.

This isn’t basketball. These are 19 man rosters. And when you have a GM that haphazardly blows a year of McDrai’s prime relying on a 40 year old goalie to backstop them, you can’t be surprised at the poor results.

Almost like Crosby’s prime got wasted when he was stapled to a 40 year old bill guerin corpse. Oh wait, he went to the finals.

If this is true, how on Earth did they win against the stacked Red Wings when Crosby was MIA that whole series?

He wasn’t MIA, did you see where zetterberg, Lidstrom, and rafalski was deployed to specifically shut down Crosby? When McDavid earns that level of respect away from drai, we can talk. For now, he needs drai on his line in order to make a deep run.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Lemieux never won squat without 6 other hall of famers on his team. He wasn't the GM, and he didn't control that happenstance, therefore giving him credit for it is arbitrary.

Mullen was 34, trottier was 35, Jagr was 19, and Recchi is the most overrated hall of famer ever. Lemieux got credit because he carried that team, don’t get it twisted.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Mullen was 34, trottier was 35, Jagr was 19, and Recchi is the most overrated hall of famer ever. Lemieux got credit because he carried that team, don’t get it twisted.

The Penguins finished 7th in the league in 1991 despite Lemieux missing 56 games.

And then beat league best Rangers in 92 without Lemieux.

He was unquestionably the best player on those teams, but the teams were still elite without him.

 

[CanadienShark]

Somewhere between realistic chance and very likely. What matters most about the postseason (to me) is their performance, not team success. McDavid showed this year that he can perform among the absolute best in the playoffs. Can't fault him for lack of team success.

 

[wetcoast]

Oh wow a top line player had to face the opponent's top defenders? That is totally unprecedented!

When Ovechkin plays, opposing teams serve their best defenders poolside martinis while Ovie skates unopposed.

Like I said up thread he played with a 38 year old Bill Guerin and a guy you think was some kind of star in Chris Kunitz mostly 5 on 5 and if you want to bring Ovi into the discussion (let's face reality as that is your only concern or interest here) Ovi played with much better players in his best runs.

Also his individual playoff resume at the same age as McDavid is miles better and really it's not even close.

 

[Miro4Norris]

Even a one Cup wouldn't be enough to enter to this discussion, at least 2. It's the ultimate goal of the sport, not Art Ross trophy.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Not without a Cup imo

 

[Video Nasty]

The Penguins finished 7th in the league in 1991 despite Lemieux missing 56 games.

And then beat league best Rangers in 92 without Lemieux.

He was unquestionably the best player on those teams, but the teams were still elite without him.

No one ever has a response for those facts about Mario and the Pens Cup runs.

The Penguins were good enough to sustain Mario missing 70 out of 160 regular season games and 6 out of their 21 playoff games in the repeat run (1 game in round 1, 4 in round 2, and the first game of the Conference Finals).

I hate that I have to preface this every time by acknowledging Lemieux as my second favorite player ever and that he obviously rocked it during those runs, but I hate when people act like this was something he did solo.

The point isn’t to diminish Lemieux. It’s to show that no one can do it on their own if the right team isn’t around them, especially in hockey.

If those teams weren’t good enough to give Mario the chance to do what he did best, we very well could be talking about a Cup-less career.

Impossible to get that through to the knuckleheads who grew up consuming vapid talking points and debates presented in media.

 

[Son Goku]

It’s hard for people who started watching hockey in 2005-2006 at a young age to consider that their childhood hero will be viewed by 99% of the hockey world as having been surpassed by McDavid within the next 6-8 years.

By the time McDavid is 15 seasons deep into his career and Crosby is retired, it’s going to be obvious that the guy with 6-8 Art Rosses, 4 Harts, 5-6 Lindsays, multiple dominate playoff runs with at least the inevitable Cup and Conn Smythe is the better player with the better career.

Once we have around 20 seasons to compare against the other, it’ll be back to the what if injury nonsense for Crosby supporters.

Funny how you're talking about "what ifs" with Crosby and giving Mcdavid credit for awards he hasn't won at the same time.

 

[saucesaitl]

he’s better already