Cooperstown 2024

[Cas]

Okay well be that as it may, how long do these guys get punished? Rose has been punished longer than some murderers are in jail, Jackson and co. obviously longer. The steroid era was what it was, and no one can tell me they don't still have sentiment towards the summer of 1998. These guys still built baseball.

Lastly, I ask this a lot but I will again. How do you put Bud Selig in there as the guy who oversaw the steroid era and not the guys who took it despite the sports media, the owners and the player's union turning a blind eye to it and actually privately cheering for it?

I don't really support Selig either.

But for Rose, Jackson, and Cicotte, the punishment, such as it is, never ends. Comparing Rose being soft-banned by professional baseball and not being allowed to get a plaque in a specific place of honor to actual jail (which, I might add, is where Rose actually belongs because of the things he did off the field) for one of the most serious crimes there is is laughable.

I might add that Jackson deserved jail too, for fraud and perjury. I don't think being denied baseball's highest honor for intentionally losing the World Series (and it is an undeniable fact that Jackson participated in the conspiracy, which was undertaken purely for greed, and took the money) is too harsh a punishment.

 

[Crosby2010]

I don't really support Selig either.

But for Rose, Jackson, and Cicotte, the punishment, such as it is, never ends. Comparing Rose being soft-banned by professional baseball and not being allowed to get a plaque in a specific place of honor to actual jail (which, I might add, is where Rose actually belongs because of the things he did off the field) for one of the most serious crimes there is is laughable.

I might add that Jackson deserved jail too, for fraud and perjury. I don't think being denied baseball's highest honor for intentionally losing the World Series (and it is an undeniable fact that Jackson participated in the conspiracy, which was undertaken purely for greed, and took the money) is too harsh a punishment.

But that's the thing I am talking about. With Selig getting in and Bonds and co. waiting on the outside from the steroid era is the equivalent of a major drug dealer getting off the hook and the people who bought the drugs off of him going to jail and never being forgiven. Baseball and Cooperstown lose their credibility when they honour a guy like this as if he was unaware of what was happening right under his nose.

 

[LightningStorm]

The baseball Hall of Fame is a baseball museum, not a House of the Holy. 2 things are true at once when it comes to Pete Rose:

1. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame due to his legendary baseball career.
2. He was rightfully banned from working in baseball again because of his gambling.

 

[Elvis P]

Baseball Hall of Fame discourse is good fun – but eye test should always come first

Adrian Beltre will get in easy on the first ballot, likely joined by Joe Mauer and Todd Helton in 2024.

www.usatoday.com

Your guide to Tuesday's HOF election results

Who will comprise the Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2024? Jim Leyland, who helmed the Pirates, Marlins, Rockies and Tigers over an illustrious 22-year managerial career, was voted in by the Contemporary Baseball Era Committee last month. On Tuesday, we’ll find out who will be joining him from the

www.mlb.com

 

[Crosby2010]

The baseball Hall of Fame is a baseball museum, not a House of the Holy. 2 things are true at once when it comes to Pete Rose:

1. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame due to his legendary baseball career.
2. He was rightfully banned from working in baseball again because of his gambling.

I can understand that. And I think you can agree to both. I will say this though, if you ever take a listen to some interviews Pete has where he is talking about baseball it is clear he was a student of the game. I could listen all day to Pete talking baseball. Which makes me think that it probably is low risk if he is a scout or a hitting coach on a team. This won't happen now, he's in his 80s and they seem content to maybe someday give him the Hall plaque after he dies. But I have to admit it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a mind like Rose in your baseball organization. He did state he just needed a second chance and wouldn't need a third. I tend to believe he would have honoured that had he gotten a chance.

 

[Elvis P]

The baseball Hall of Fame is a baseball museum, not a House of the Holy. 2 things are true at once when it comes to Pete Rose:

1. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame due to his legendary baseball career. ...

Nope. From his era to the present 1B, 3B, and OFers with a .409 SLG% don't get in. Name one.

 

[Cas]

I can understand that. And I think you can agree to both. I will say this though, if you ever take a listen to some interviews Pete has where he is talking about baseball it is clear he was a student of the game. I could listen all day to Pete talking baseball. Which makes me think that it probably is low risk if he is a scout or a hitting coach on a team. This won't happen now, he's in his 80s and they seem content to maybe someday give him the Hall plaque after he dies. But I have to admit it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a mind like Rose in your baseball organization. He did state he just needed a second chance and wouldn't need a third. I tend to believe he would have honoured that had he gotten a chance.

Pete Rose has gotten chance after chance. He doesn't care about getting back into baseball, he cares about milking the sympathy/grievance card for money.

 

[MS]

Nope. From his era to the present 1B, 3B, and OFers with a .409 SLG% don't get in. Name one.

What an odd stat to cherry pick.

Rose was worth 80 WAR, had 4200 career hits, 3 batting titles, 3x World Series and an MVP.

 

[Elvis P]

What an odd stat to cherry pick. Rose was worth 80 WAR, had 4200 career hits, 3 batting titles, 3x World Series and an MVP.

When you're the all-time leader in Gs, PAs, and ABs you're gonna have hits. You didn't answer my question. Name one.

 

[MS]

When you're the all-time leader in Gs, PAs, and ABs you're gonna have hits.

80 WAR.

Black Ink Test - 64. Average BHOF - 27.

And having the most insane durability in the history of the sport is a positive, not a negative.

To say that Pete Rose's career wasn't BHOF-worthy is absolute bat-f***ing insane.

 

[Elvis P]

80 WAR. Black Ink Test - 64. Average BHOF - 27. And having the most insane durability in the history of the sport is a positive, not a negative. To say that Pete Rose's career wasn't BHOF-worthy is absolute bat-f***ing insane.

You didn't answer my question. Name one.

 

[MS]

You didn't answer my question. Name one.

Who the hell cares? And I never disputed whether your cherry-picked irrelevant stat was correct or not.

It's like saying that Babe Ruth's SB totals somehow don't match up with other players at his position.

Pete Rose (without the gambling stuff) was an inner-circle first-ballot BHOF guy and there is absolutely no argument to the contrary, regardless of what his slugging % was.

 

[Neutrinos]

You didn't answer my question. Name one.

The question is a bit unfair to Rose

He played until he was 45-years old, so that's gonna pull down the ol' career averages

Rod Carew retired at 39 with a .429 SLG%

If you cut Rose's career off at 39, his career SLG% would be .428

 

[Elvis P]

... Pete Rose (without the gambling stuff) was an inner-circle first-ballot BHOF guy ...

Agreed. Before metrics he  WAS a HoFer because we used counting stats to prove lies such as LeBron > MJ. Now with metrics he's not a HoFer. One of us saw most of his career.

 

[MS]

Agreed. Before metrics he  WAS a HoFer because we used counting stats to prove lies such as LeBron > MJ. Now with metrics he's not a HoFer. One of us saw most of his career.

Are you actually serious?

Again :

80 WAR

Destroys the Black Ink Test.

3x WS, WS MVP, MVP, ROY

Literally every modern metric puts him easily into the BHOF. WAR, Grey/Black Ink Test, JAWS, HOF Monitor, etc.

You've literally cherry-picked one irrelevant stat (which, as someone else noted above, was dropped by his longevity) and decided that overrides every other stat (both modern and traditional) that illustrates he's a dead-obvious 1st-ballot BHOF guy.

 

[Cas]

Agreed. Before metrics he  WAS a HoFer because we used counting stats to prove lies such as LeBron > MJ. Now with metrics he's not a HoFer. One of us saw most of his career.

Now that is excessive. By the metrics, Rose's career is well above HOF standards - you can't just cherry-pick one thing.

I do hate Rose, as noted. But your argument is nonsensical.

 

[Unholy Diver]

Nope. From his era to the present 1B, 3B, and OFers with a .409 SLG% don't get in. Name one.

Ichiro will as soon as he is eligible

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Nope. From his era to the present 1B, 3B, and OFers with a .409 SLG% don't get in. Name one.

Rickey Henderson, .419

Agreed. Before metrics he  WAS a HoFer because we used counting stats to prove lies such as LeBron > MJ. Now with metrics he's not a HoFer. One of us saw most of his career.

MVP, WS MVP, ROY, 2 Gold Gloves, 3x Batting Champ, 7x led the league in hits

 

[Cas]

Rose was also at .432 after 1979 - this was in more than 12,000 plate appearances, during a low offensive era. 80.8 WAR in that stretch, peak of 8.3, 7.0, 6.6.

All of these things are true: Pete Rose had a Hall of Fame career, Pete Rose is one of the most overrated players in baseball history, Pete Rose is a tremendous asshole, and Pete Rose has no place in the Hall of Fame because of what he did.

 

[Crosby2010]

Agreed. Before metrics he  WAS a HoFer because we used counting stats to prove lies such as LeBron > MJ. Now with metrics he's not a HoFer. One of us saw most of his career.

Okay, this has gotten a little weird. I am okay with people that say Rose ought to never get into the Hall because of the gambling off the field. But in what universe is Pete Rose not a lock cinch Hall of Famer in Cooperstown?

Here is a good question, how many people led the league in hits 7 times, runs 4 times and average 3 times and aren't in? There wouldn't be anyone. There is no one, not even Rose's worst enemy - not even Ray Fosse - that would say Rose doesn't belong in the Hall based solely on his numbers (ignoring the gambling stuff).

Rose wasn't a home run hitter, does it really matter? Neither was Ichiro.

 

[MMC]

 

[MMC]

 

[MMC]

 

[Tecumseh]

All really good inductions. The story will be who they didn’t induct as Sheffield obviously fell short on his last year of eligibility

 

[SoupNazi]

Joe Mauer is, apparently, a member of the HOF.