Cooperstown 2024

[Elvis P]

1	Alex Rodriguez	3rd	35.7%	390	77	22	117.6	64.3	90.9	55.4	2784	10566	2021	3115	696	2086	329	1338	.295	.380	.550	.930	140														*6*5DH/3
2	Manny Ramirez	8th	33.2%	226	69	19	69.3	39.9	54.6	53.4	2302	8244	1544	2574	555	1831	38	1329	.312	.411	.585	.996	154														*7*9*DH
3	Todd Helton	6th	72.2%	175	59	17	61.8	46.6	54.2	53.4	2247	7962	1401	2519	369	1406	37	1335	.316	.414	.539	.953	133														*3H/7D9
4	Adrián Beltré	1st		163	55	21	93.5	48.7	71.1	55.7	2933	11068	1524	3166	477	1707	121	848	.286	.339	.480	.819	116														*5D/H64
5	Gary Sheffield	10th	55.0%	158	61	22	60.5	38.0	49.3	56.7	2576	9217	1636	2689	509	1676	253	1475	.292	.393	.514	.907	140														*9*7*5*D6H/3
6	Andy Pettitte	6th	17.0%	128	44	18	60.2	34.1	47.2	61.4	108	196	6	27	1	13	0	6	.138	.163	.184	.346	-10	256	153	3.85	117	1.351	531	521	0	3316.0	3448	288	1031	2448	*1/H
7	Carlos Beltrán	2nd	46.5%	126	52	20	70.1	44.4	57.3	58.1	2586	9768	1582	2725	435	1587	312	1084	.279	.350	.486	.837	119														*8*9*DH/73
8	Francisco Rodríguez	2nd	10.8%	124	16	16	24.2	17.6	20.9	32.5	437	2	0	1	0	0	0	0	.500	.500	.500	1.000	178	52	53	2.86	148	1.155	948	0	437	976.0	738	98	389	1142	*1
9	Jimmy Rollins	3rd	12.9%	121	42	17	47.6	32.7	40.1	55.4	2275	9294	1421	2455	231	936	470	813	.264	.324	.418	.743	95														*6H/D4
10	Omar Vizquel	7th	19.5%	120	42	24	45.6	26.8	36.2	55.4	2968	10586	1445	2877	80	951	404	1028	.272	.336	.352	.688	82														*65H4/D379
11	Matt Holliday	1st		110	41	15	44.5	34.3	39.4	53.4	1903	7009	1157	2096	316	1220	108	802	.299	.379	.510	.889	132														*7DH/3
12	Andruw Jones	7th	58.1%	109	34	17	62.7	46.4	54.6	58.1	2196	7599	1204	1933	434	1289	152	891	.254	.337	.486	.823	111														*89H7D/3
13	Billy Wagner	9th	68.1%	107	24	16	27.7	19.8	23.7	32.5	810	20	1	2	0	1	0	1	.100	.143	.100	.243	-35	47	40	2.31	187	0.998	853	0	422	903.0	601	82	300	1196	*1
14	Bobby Abreu	5th	15.4%	95	54	18	60.2	41.6	50.9	56.7	2425	8480	1453	2470	288	1363	400	1476	.291	.395	.475	.870	128														*9DH7/8
15	Chase Utley	1st		94	36	16	64.5	49.3	56.9	57.0	1937	6857	1103	1885	259	1025	154	724	.275	.358	.465	.823	117														*4H3/D5
16	Joe Mauer	1st		92	41	15	55.2	39.0	47.1	44.2	1858	6930	1018	2123	143	923	52	939	.306	.388	.439	.827	124														*2*3*DH/9
17	Adrián González	1st		90	31	15	43.5	34.6	39.1	53.4	1929	7139	997	2050	317	1202	6	782	.287	.358	.485	.843	129														*3HD/9
18	Bartolo Colon	1st		88	37	21	46.2	35.5	40.8	61.4	148	299	11	25	1	11	0	1	.084	.092	.107	.199	-46	247	188	4.12	106	1.312	565	552	0	3461.2	3593	439	948	2535	*1
19	José Bautista	1st		78	26	15	36.7	38.2	37.5	56.7	1798	6051	1022	1496	344	975	70	1032	.247	.361	.475	.836	124														*9*5DH873/4
20	José Reyes	1st		76	36	16	37.5	29.3	33.4	55.4	1877	7552	1180	2138	145	719	517	589	.283	.334	.427	.761	103	0	0	54.00	10	7.000	1	0	0	1.0	5	2	2	0	*654H/871
21	David Wright	1st		74	36	14	49.2	39.5	44.3	55.7	1585	5998	949	1777	242	970	196	762	.296	.376	.491	.867	133														*5/HD6
22	Brandon Phillips	1st		68	28	17	28.4	24.8	26.6	57.0	1902	7378	1005	2029	211	951	209	420	.275	.320	.420	.740	95														*4H/5D6
23	Victor Martinez	1st		63	37	16	32.0	29.0	30.5	44.2	1973	7297	914	2153	246	1178	7	730	.295	.360	.455	.815	118														*D*23H
24	Torii Hunter	4th	6.9%	58	34	19	50.7	30.8	40.7	58.1	2372	8857	1296	2452	353	1391	195	661	.277	.331	.461	.793	110														*8*9DH/7
25	Mark Buehrle	4th	10.8%	52	31	16	59.1	35.8	47.4	61.4	55	125	4	9	1	3	0	2	.072	.087	.112	.199	-47	214	160	3.81	117	1.281	518	493	0	3283.1	3472	361	734	1870	*1
															0	2	0	2	.122	.157	.143	.300	-23

Who do you think deserves to get in?

Click to read more...

 

[Voight]

Doubt A-Rod will just yet but I think his image has recovered somewhat so hopefully these morons finally induct him before he hits the 10 year limit.

 

[Cas]

I'd probably go something like:

Abreu
Beltre
Helton
Jones
Mauer
Pettitte
Ramirez
Rodriguez
Sheffield
Utley

Beltran is a better selection than Abreu, but Abreu is a borderline player who is going to need votes to stay on the ballot, while Beltran is in no risk of falling off and has more years ahead of him. It's a strategic vote.

My borderline picks here are Abreu, Pettitte, and Sheffield. Pettitte does deserve a fair degree of postseason credit. Sheffield is really hurt by his truly awful defense. I can't see any of these players actually making it via the BBWAA ballot, honestly.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Bobby Abreu is maybe the most difficult one for me... like of all time. His overall numbers are totally in the HOF conversation but to me, but he just feels like such a compiler... maybe not Harold Baines level compilier and I know he was a really good player for a decent amount of time, it's just watching him play, I never got the sense that I was watching an HOFer at all. His career is so forgettable to me and he played during my super into baseball peak watching years.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Thanks for posting. He would be my 6th choice as I listed my choices in order of preference above.

I agree with a lot of your list but I'm out on Rollins. Dude is straight up not an HOFer in my book. He had decent power numbers for a 2B but overall not a good offensive player. Like even if you take his peak years, they were just good to maybe very good but not truly elite. Defense was good but I wouldn't say otherworldly. He is Hall of Very Good I'd say but very easy 'no' for me on that one.

 

[Terry Yake]

a-rod, helton, beltre, manny, sheffield

i think beltran will and should get in eventually, but i'm fine still keeping him out another year. utley is borderline to me but i can't vote for him knowing kent probably won't get in

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I'd vote for:

Beltre
Beltran
A-Rod
Manny

for sure and I've come around on Helton, so him too. Still torn on Jones, Sheffield (last ballot) and Wagner. I was a no on Wagner until Hoffman and Lee Smith got in, so if we're putting in relievers he was better than both of them.


I think Mauer should be in as a Catcher, but wonder if his non-catching years hurt him?

I think Utley is a better candidate than his teammate Rollins.


If I had to make a prediction: I think Beltre, Helton and Wagner get in in 2024. Mauer, Beltran (and Ichiro) in 2025. Jones might be one of those guys who gets a boost and makes it on his last try in 2026.

 

[Cas]

I think Mauer should be in as a Catcher, but wonder if his non-catching years hurt him?

You can't play your way out of being a Hall of Famer, so the question should really be does Mauer have enough peak/prime? I think he does, and it is clearly as a catcher.

 

[Unholy Diver]

You can't play your way out of being a Hall of Famer, so the question should really be does Mauer have enough peak/prime? I think he does, and it is clearly as a catcher.

Sure you can, Doc Gooden and Fernando Valenzuela are perfect examples of guys who did

 

[Cas]

Sure you can, Doc Gooden and Fernando Valenzuela are perfect examples of guys who did

Neither Gooden nor Valenzuela were ever in a position where you could say "this guy could never play another game and make the Hall."

Gooden started out supremely hot, but only really had three really good years. He had 42.2 WAR at the ten year mark, which is nice but not enough to warrant induction. His more traditional stats tell basically the same story - 154-81, 3.04 ERA, 2128.1 IP, 1835 K. Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, four-time All Star - those are all nice, but they were not sufficient on their own to warrant induction. Gooden needed another five pretty good years and he didn't get them.

Valenzuela's case is actually very similar, only he had a somewhat better typical season than Gooden and lacked the one all time great year.

What I'm saying is not "these guys played their way out of the Hall of Fame." I'm saying they had never played their way into the Hall of Fame in the first place, largely because they were unable to sustain the performance they exhibited right when they entered the league. There are a lot of pitchers like that.

Playing your way out of the Hall of Fame would be more like a two-time Cy Young winner with 200 wins, 70 WAR, and a ring tacking on ten really bad years at the end of his career and ending up with les than 60 WAR and a below average career ERA. I wouldn't hold those later years against him.

 

[Unholy Diver]

Neither Gooden nor Valenzuela were ever in a position where you could say "this guy could never play another game and make the Hall."

Gooden started out supremely hot, but only really had three really good years. He had 42.2 WAR at the ten year mark, which is nice but not enough to warrant induction. His more traditional stats tell basically the same story - 154-81, 3.04 ERA, 2128.1 IP, 1835 K. Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, four-time All Star - those are all nice, but they were not sufficient on their own to warrant induction. Gooden needed another five pretty good years and he didn't get them.

Valenzuela's case is actually very similar, only he had a somewhat better typical season than Gooden and lacked the one all time great year.

What I'm saying is not "these guys played their way out of the Hall of Fame." I'm saying they had never played their way into the Hall of Fame in the first place, largely because they were unable to sustain the performance they exhibited right when they entered the league. There are a lot of pitchers like that.

Playing your way out of the Hall of Fame would be more like a two-time Cy Young winner with 200 wins, 70 WAR, and a ring tacking on ten really bad years at the end of his career and ending up with les than 60 WAR and a below average career ERA. I wouldn't hold those later years against him.

Ok, I see where you are going with that now

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

You can't play your way out of being a Hall of Famer, so the question should really be does Mauer have enough peak/prime? I think he does, and it is clearly as a catcher.

I was just saying some might say he didn't catch for long enough.

And Andruw Jones might beg to differ about playing your way out of being a HoFer lol. (though he may still get in eventually)

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Beltre and Mauer are automatics for me among the first time nominees. Mauer is top-7 - 10 all-time for catchers
in WAR7, JAWS and Career WAR. Easy induction there. Beltre career numbers speak for themselves. His career WAR and JAWS are top-4 all-time for catchers.

Utley should be in imo but it seems like voters over the past several decades have issues with electing someone that has less than 2,000 hits for their career. That sure wasn't the case back in the earlier days of the hall of fame, so it shouldn't be the case now. Utley's JAWS and WAR7 are average or higher than the average hall of fame second baseman. His career WAR of 64.5 is just 5 less than the average hall of fame second baseman. Again good enough for the HOF.

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

ARod, Manny, Beltre, Sheff, Mauer

 

[CokenoPepsi]

I wish the hockey hall of fame were as tough to get into as the baseball hall

 

[Crosby2010]

There is no rhyme or reason as to why A-Rod and Manny are kept out. But my guess is neither of them get in this way unless they start inducting the guys from the juiced era, which they should. If that is the case then there are a lot of guys past their 10 years of eligibility that belong. We all know the names, and only Curt Schilling is a name that wasn't involved or suspected in steroids or gambling (Rose, Shoeless). There is just bizarre grudges the BHOF has with some players. I suspect A-Rod will continue to have things held against him. So if you are wondering if I believe the juiced stars should get in then yes I believe it.

As for pitchers, no doubt Pettitte belongs. I'd put him in this year as well.

 

[EpochLink]

But my guess is neither of them get in this way unless they start inducting the guys from the juiced era, which they should.

They are already in there: Ortiz, Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez.
All had suspicion of juicing yet the baseball writers voted them in.

 

[Crosby2010]

They are already in there: Ortiz, Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez.
All had suspicion of juicing yet the baseball writers voted them in.

Yeah those ones somehow got away with it. Not that I don't think they shouldn't be in. They should. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire among others ought to be in by now as well. Baseball really shoots themselves in the foot over all of this stuff.

 

[Neutrinos]

There is no rhyme or reason as to why A-Rod and Manny are kept out. But my guess is neither of them get in this way unless they start inducting the guys from the juiced era, which they should. If that is the case then there are a lot of guys past their 10 years of eligibility that belong. We all know the names, and only Curt Schilling is a name that wasn't involved or suspected in steroids or gambling (Rose, Shoeless). There is just bizarre grudges the BHOF has with some players. I suspect A-Rod will continue to have things held against him. So if you are wondering if I believe the juiced stars should get in then yes I believe it.

As for pitchers, no doubt Pettitte belongs. I'd put him in this year as well.

Disagree

Pettitte had just 3 seasons with a 4+ WAR

For comparison's sake, here are the number of seasons these pitchers had a 4+ WAR:

Kenny Rogers 5
Al Leiter 5
Brandon Webb 5
Jake Peavy 5
Carlos Zambrano 5
Roy Oswalt 5
Cliff Lee 5
Jon Lester 5
Bret Saberhagen 5
David Wells 6
CC Sabathia 6
Chuck Finley 6
Mark Langston 6
Jimmy Key 7
Tim Hudson 7
Kevin Appier 7
Johan Santana 7
David Cone 8
Cole Hamels 8
Mark Buehrle 8
Dave Stieb 8
Bartolo Colon 8
Kevin Brown 9
Curt Schilling 11
Clemens 16

 

[Crosby2010]

Disagree

Pettitte had just 3 seasons with a 4+ WAR

For comparison's sake, here are the number of seasons these pitchers had a 4+ WAR:

Kenny Rogers 5
Al Leiter 5
Brandon Webb 5
Jake Peavy 5
Carlos Zambrano 5
Roy Oswalt 5
Cliff Lee 5
Jon Lester 5
David Wells 6
CC Sabathia 6
Chuck Finley 6
Mark Langston 6
Jimmy Key 7
Tim Hudson 7
Kevin Appier 7
Johan Santana 7
David Cone 8
Cole Hamels 8
Mark Buehrle 8
Dave Stieb 8
Bartolo Colon 8
Kevin Brown 9
Curt Schilling 11
Clemens 16

Is it possible Pettitte gets discredited a bit because he was generally on great teams to begin with? And if so, should he?

 

[Neutrinos]

Is it possible Pettitte gets discredited a bit because he was generally on great teams to begin with? And if so, should he?

The post you just responded to was pointing out the lack of all-star caliber seasons Pettitte had throughout his career

The greatness of the teams he played on has nothing to do with it

 

[Crosby2010]

The post you just responded to was pointing out the lack of all-star caliber seasons Pettitte had throughout his career

The greatness of the teams he played on has nothing to do with it

He'd likely be in by now if not for the steroid allegations regardless.

 

[Neutrinos]

He'd likely be in by now if not for the steroid allegations regardless.

If that's true, it would mean he'd been given extra credit because he was generally on great teams

Pettitte's career WAR is 60.7 in 3316 IP

For comparison's sake:

Kevin Brown = 68.2 WAR in 3256 IP
CC Sabathia = 61.8 WAR in 3577 IP
David Cone = 61.6 WAR in 2899 IP
Mark Buehrle = 60 WAR in 3283 IP
Bret Saberhagen = 58.9 WAR in 2563 IP
Chuck Finley = 58.3 WAR in 3316 IP
Cole Hamels = 58 WAR in 2698 IP

 

[Crosby2010]

If that's true, it would mean he'd been given extra credit because he was generally on great teams

Pettitte's career WAR is 60.7 in 3316 IP

For comparison's sake:

Kevin Brown = 68.2 WAR in 3256 IP
CC Sabathia = 61.8 WAR in 3577 IP
David Cone = 61.6 WAR in 2899 IP
Mark Buehrle = 60 WAR in 3283 IP
Bret Saberhagen = 58.9 WAR in 2563 IP
Chuck Finley = 58.3 WAR in 3316 IP
Cole Hamels = 58 WAR in 2698 IP

I will mention that I don't believe WAR is the be all and end all. It is a piece of the puzzle. How you finished in the Cy Young voting is more important than that, IMO. That being said, CC Sabathia is not a guy you consider worthy of Cooperstown?

 

[Neutrinos]

I will mention that I don't believe WAR is the be all and end all. It is a piece of the puzzle. How you finished in the Cy Young voting is more important than that, IMO. That being said, CC Sabathia is not a guy you consider worthy of Cooperstown?

It's become increasingly obvious you're out of your depth on this topic

Cy Young voting throughout history was almost always based solely on the number of games a pitcher won

That's why in 2000, Pettitte (19 wins) finished 4th in Cy Young voting despite a 4.35 ERA, 1.461 WHIP, and only 125 strikeouts in 205 IP, while Mussina (11 wins) finished tied for 6th in voting despite a 3.79 ERA, 1.187 WHIP, and 210 strikeouts in 238 IP

And over in the NL, Kevin Brown (13 wins) finished 6th in Cy Young voting despite leading the league in both ERA (2.58) and WHIP (0.991) with 216 K in 230 IP, while Darryl Kile (20 wins) finished 5th in voting with a 3.91 ERA, 1.175 WHIP, and 192 K in 232 IP


Give the 2005 AL Cy Young voting a look, and then tell me why a pitcher's place in said voting is more important than an unbiased statistic which measures their on-field value...

2005 Awards Voting | Baseball-Reference.com

Winners and Vote Totals for the MVP, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, and Manager of the Year Awards

www.baseball-reference.com