Constructive Criticism of Peter Chiarelli

[CycloneSweep]

Another crow eating thread for the off season.

Keep em coming

Will you eat crow if you are wrong? I will.

 

[Canovin]

Will you eat crow if you are wrong? I will.

The GDTs are the crow eating threads for those who defended Chia summer moves.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

I'll start with what I think Chia does well:

1) He has a strong vision for what he wants his team to be and what characteristics he wants it to exude and builds towards it. This vision enables him to stay on message and not chase after every passing fad, where there are more then a few teams who just want to follow whatever the template of the most recent Stanley Cup Champion was.
2) He is good at assessing team weaknesses and figuring out the kind of player he needs to address that issue.
3) He is good at assessing individual strengths and weaknesses inherent in players games, particularly when he gets to view them for extended periods of time.
4) He is good at prioritizing team weaknesses, when there are multiple issues he knows which is the most glaring and which can potentially wait or be fixed internally. (Not to say he always does them in order, some issues are quite costly to fix while others can be addressed fairly easily)
5) Chia has demonstrated that he tends to build good rapport with his players, players tend to like playing for him and he doesn't get in many public spats or feuds.

My criticisms are:

1) He is poor at evaluating young talent in general. Over-valuing some young talent in trades to acquire them. Over-estimating the ability of some young players to step into bigger roles (such as this summer- primarily with our forward group)
2) He doesn't value elite skill quite highly enough- trading away Wheeler, Seguin, Hall, and Kessel and while yes I'd say all of those players had some flaws to go with the elite skill package they had, they aren't easy to acquire back and in the right environment you can generally isolate their weaknesses so they can play to their strengths more often.
3) Chia seems to rely too heavily on past viewing experiences and doesn't update his evaluation of players quickly enough as their games show signs of deterioration or regression. If you listen to him talk about players it tends to be heavily biased towards players he has seen in the East in his time in Boston.
4) He has a trademark style of building teams with a lot of big men and a penchant for being physical, but I'm not sure if he has the versatility to build the team in a different way and still be successful.
5) Players he tends to define as being core players- get overpaid a little too frequently and his cap management is poor as a result, most teams have cap specialists now which should prevent doing something stupid like carrying a $4.8M cap overage into the following season like he did in Boston.

 

[Drivesaitl]

^@Aerchon

I don't know for sure that there has been a smoking gun quote from Sather on the subject but I've heard it spoken that Sather was doing the Oilers a solid. It would be kind of silly for Sather, an active manager, to stated publicly that's what he did. The Oilers org knows what he did. It was a huge favor. Theres been speculation on it ever since.

https://www.coppernblue.com/2015/10/30/9645818/slats-just-wanted-to-help-his-old-team-out

Ask yourself why Sather turned down deals for more assets in return to make the deal with the Oilers?

Its not crazy to think it was a favor in anycase. Sather bleeds Orange and Blue to this day. Talbot is going to be here longer than Sather is alive. I sense he realizes that as well. Sathers friends also remain with this org. You think he wouldn't want to help them or in the least preferential deal? he actually did, he gave the Oilers a bargain on the sought after Talbot. Chia would have to be an idiot to say no to it.

Developed McDavid? you gotta be kidding me. There hasn't been a player prepacked and just take out of the box ready for the NHL like this since Crosby. No team could screw up McDavid, none. Draisaitl was being called German Gretzky in 2014 when the team drafted him and when Mactavish said he would be the Oilers Kopitar on draft day. All Drai needed was some seasoning.

Maroon is great signing. I would have picked him up for the airport and put up lodging. That's what I think of Maroon. Again its incredible the Ducks were so stupid but good on Chia to go out and get Big Rig. Love it.

Nilsson was a bad signing. Nor do I think he was great. He didn't even last a season here before Talbot had to take on all the duties. That said I never liked Nilsson fundamentals at all.

Kind of hard to say 99% of the hockey world picked Pulju when he fell to the Oilers in the draft with Columbus NOT picking him. I rue that day btw.

I love Hamonic. too bad that deal didn't work out. From reports it was on the table. Chia ended up giving a whole lot more for Larsson.

 

[McNuge]

Theres ample debate on Letang because he's not really a shutdown D, he's not the typical size of one. He's offensive oriented. Really if we're calling him elite than Gogetmeabeer in Philly is one. Plus that Pens won the cup entirely without him. They advanced throughout the playoffs without Letang and so you can't say he's a requirement to their SC.

I agree that the Oilers ego may have been pumped by some of those oddsmakers. I groaned when I saw some of that.

Uhm, Letang didn't play in their cup run last year but the year before he should have won the Conn Smythe. He 100% has game breaking ability as a D man and the only reason he doesn't get recognized is because he is hurt too often and he plays on a team with Crosby. Go back and watch their cup run 2 years ago and let me know if you don't think he is elite. Ghost is no where near that convo yet. Letang is top a top 15 D in the league easily and IMO he is top 10.

 

[StevenF1919]

Counting down the days until he's fired. All the struggles this team has had this season were completely predictable.

 

[Oilfan2]

I said when Chia was hired I'd give him enough time to do what he thought was necessary. I think he still deserves more time..despite some of the questionable moves to go with the good.

In my opinion, Chia believes the Oilers are still on the path he predicted and planned for.

Last year was an aberration, similar to 2006. The difference between the two is Lowe decided to 'go for it' in '06 and made some moves that almost brought the cup home. We know what happened for the next 10 years after that.
No doubt Chia and TMac were happy, but surprised, when the team did as well as it did last year. However, Chia saw it for what I believe it was...an oddity. The team wasn't ready after 10 years but lots of things went right, such as Talbot's great year, other career years (Maroon) no significant injuries, etc. The team got on a roll and stayed there. It was a great run and the team went further than most would have predicted so soon after being a constant loser.

However, no one should really be surprised that the team isn't on top of the league at the moment. Frankly, they're not as good as they looked last year or ready, despite last year's 'miracle run. They also aren't as bad as they have been this season either. They're somewhere in between.

I believe the team is where Chia expected it to be at this point in his leadership...despite what happened last season. Last year they probably weren't expected to make the playoffs but have a much improved season from previous ones. I believe he came with a plan which included moving the previous 'stars' of the team as that wasn't working. He moved Hall, Yak, Ebs and, by next season, RNH. He'll continue to build the team in the image he wants. The returns for those moves aren't significant with the exception of Larsson and, perhaps, whatever RNH brings in.

This year (continuing with his original plan) we should be middle of the road, perhaps challenging for a spot or even making it in. That's why Chia made the type of moves he did off-season. Nice that they had one good year but that didn't change the long term plans for the team to become contenders down the road with the right moves. He will be counting on some of those future moves, along with the development of McD, Drai, Klef, Larsson, Talbot, Lucic, JP, KY, etc. to make the team contenders within another couple of years.

I think people got too high with the team's success last year (as nice as it was) and are now too low because of it (expectations?)

I, for one, will keep enjoying watching the team play and seeing the growth/improvement of the team and some of the stars (or future stars). If they make the playoffs, terrific. If not, I believe they'e still on the 'path.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Uhm, Letang didn't play in their cup run last year but the year before he should have won the Conn Smythe. He 100% has game breaking ability as a D man and the only reason he doesn't get recognized is because he is hurt too often and he plays on a team with Crosby. Go back and watch their cup run 2 years ago and let me know if you don't think he is elite. Ghost is no where near that convo yet. Letang is top a top 15 D in the league easily and IMO he is top 10.

Its semantics over what the word "elite" means in that context. In any position in the NHL are there 15 elites?

When I'm talking elites I'm talking the smaller sample that would usually come up. Maybe topten I'm also partial to shutdown defenders so take with a grain of salt. The Pens system defend better than anyone else, and much of that due to owning the puck. Tons of games where they give up less than 20 shots, even in playoffs. The Pens, in their usual line configuration, dominate through 3 lines and have a horse line on the 4th that give no time and space. This would be the easiest team in the NHl in which to be a goalie or a D. A D like Dumoulin or Schultz look like they could be stars in Pittsburgh. That should tell you something.

But I'll give you Letang being elite. He wouldn't look exactly the same in say Philly.

I watched every series.

But you missed the point. How is it a requisite to have an Elite D when the Pens actually went through the entire playoffs and won the cup without him actually in the lineup. That argues that it is possible to win the cup without any one elite D.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I said when Chia was hired I'd give him enough time to do what he thought was necessary. I think he still deserves more time..despite some of the questionable moves to go with the good.

In my opinion, Chia believes the Oilers are still on the path he predicted and planned for.

Last year was an aberration, similar to 2006. The difference between the two is Lowe decided to 'go for it' in '06 and made some moves that almost brought the cup home. We know what happened for the next 10 years after that.
No doubt Chia and TMac were happy, but surprised, when the team did as well as it did last year. However, Chia saw it for what I believe it was...an oddity. The team wasn't ready after 10 years but lots of things went right, such as Talbot's great year, other career years (Maroon) no significant injuries, etc. The team got on a roll and stayed there. It was a great run and the team went further than most would have predicted so soon after being a constant loser.

However, no one should really be surprised that the team isn't on top of the league at the moment. Frankly, they're not as good as they looked last year or ready, despite last year's 'miracle run. They also aren't as bad as they have been this season either. They're somewhere in between.

I believe the team is where Chia expected it to be at this point in his leadership...despite what happened last season. Last year they probably weren't expected to make the playoffs but have a much improved season from previous ones. I believe he came with a plan which included moving the previous 'stars' of the team as that wasn't working. He moved Hall, Yak, Ebs and, by next season, RNH. He'll continue to build the team in the image he wants. The returns for those moves aren't significant with the exception of Larsson and, perhaps, whatever RNH brings in.

This year (continuing with his original plan) we should be middle of the road, perhaps challenging for a spot or even making it in. That's why Chia made the type of moves he did off-season. Nice that they had one good year but that didn't change the long term plans for the team to become contenders down the road with the right moves. He will be counting on some of those future moves, along with the development of McD, Drai, Klef, Larsson, Talbot, Lucic, JP, KY, etc. to make the team contenders within another couple of years.

I think people got too high with the team's success last year (as nice as it was) and are now too low because of it (expectations?)

I, for one, will keep enjoying watching the team play and seeing the growth/improvement of the team and some of the stars (or future stars). If they make the playoffs, terrific. If not, I believe they'e still on the 'path.

bravo

well said

 

[McNuge]

Its semantics over what the word "elite" means in that context. In any position in the NHL are there 15 elites?

When I'm talking elites I'm talking the smaller sample that would usually come up. Maybe topten I'm also partial to shutdown defenders so take with a grain of salt. The Pens system defend better than anyone else, and much of that due to owning the puck. Tons of games where they give up less than 20 shots, even in playoffs. The Pens, in their usual line configuration, dominate through 3 lines and have a horse line on the 4th that give no time and space. This would be the easiest team in the NHl in which to be a goalie or a D. A D like Dumoulin or Schultz look like they could be stars in Pittsburgh. That should tell you something.

But I'll give you Letang being elite. He wouldn't look exactly the same in say Philly.

I watched every series.

But you missed the point. How is it a requisite to have an Elite D when the Pens actually went through the entire playoffs and won the cup without him actually in the lineup. That argues that it is possible to win the cup without any one elite D.

It is semantics, but using Pitts as an example of you don't need elite D to win a cup is kind of bad IMO because they are an outlier due to them having 2 of the top C in the entire league. Look at the teams that won cups before they did. Doughty was a massive reason for the Kings winning 2 cups and Keith was instrumental in the 3 cup wins for Chicago.

 

[McNuge]

Also in response to Schultz looking like a star there. We saw first hand that he had serious skills, it was evident from when he played his first game as an Oiler. He packed his own bags and drove him self to the airport with his play here, he gave up on the team and the team gave up on him.

 

[McGoMcD]

The pros really out weight the cons. The problem with many is basically they just view hindsight as 20/20. They look at a set of moves and think that there would be some GM who would have made all these moves perfectly. They compare an GM to this unrealistic expectation, in other words every GM makes mistakes. Take the Rienhart deal. He was a risk, 4th overall picks with high end pedigree. Chia couldn't not totally for see him just not developing or that there would be an expansion draft.

To me the big knock on Chia his whole career was the Seguin deal. I would like to know what really happened, but there are a few sources that suggest he had to deal him. He really had no choice. That management, Neely to be exact, wanted him gone. If that doens't happen he never looses his job. He was considered one of the best GM's in the game. Now he comes here and takes us from last place for the past 10 years to nearly the 3rd round. The bottom line is his record is pretty dam good. Of course McDavid played a huge role in that too, but still, the majority of his moves have been good. I think we are lucky to have him and he is a top 5 GM in the game.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It is semantics, but using Pitts as an example of you don't need elite D to win a cup is kind of bad IMO because they are an outlier due to them having 2 of the top C in the entire league. Look at the teams that won cups before they did. Doughty was a massive reason for the Kings winning 2 cups and Keith was instrumental in the 3 cup wins for Chicago.

Agreed mostly, thanks for the discussion. I guess I just didn't see Letang as elite although that could just be my take. I don't see him as bending results like say a Pronger, a Doughty, a Weber, Subban, Karlsson etc. I see Crosby, Malkin, Kessel being the pillars.

Where I disagree with you is probably around Draisaitl. He is one of the best Centers in the league already. Many hockey pundits consider him to be Kopitar already and that is huge praise, and perhaps also significant as the Kings don't have a matching McD.

In anycase at least we have star players, although no credit to Chia imo.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Also in response to Schultz looking like a star there. We saw first hand that he had serious skills, it was evident from when he played his first game as an Oiler. He packed his own bags and drove him self to the airport with his play here, he gave up on the team and the team gave up on him.

That is one presumed narrative that requires a lot of conjecture. Pro players don't generally give up. The far easier one is that its just a lot easier to be a D in Pittsburgh than it was here.
EVERY D the Pens obtain does better there than they performed anywhere else and better than expected to. When your team has the puck 66% of the time its easier to be a D. (throwing a number out of a hat but the pens typically do possess the puck a crazy amount of time. )

 

[t0nedeff]

Also in response to Schultz looking like a star there. We saw first hand that he had serious skills, it was evident from when he played his first game as an Oiler. He packed his own bags and drove him self to the airport with his play here, he gave up on the team and the team gave up on him.

He's still a nightmare in his own end.

 

[Faelko]

Couldnt he give up future draft picks for Hamonic?
Couldnt he get Demers for a prospect?
Couldnt he get Hjalmarsson for a prospect?
Couldnt he get Methot for a prospect?

Hamonic: I’d love to know what was discussed because this seems like a no-brainer. Either Chiarelli doesn’t like Hamonic or he thought the price was too high.

Demers: same awful contract as Russell IMO. Plus he had a NTC and maybe he didn’t want to come here? He did veto a deal to Vancouver didn’t he?

Hjalmarson: for some reason the Hawks wanted Murphy, I don’t get it either. Would’ve liked to have had Hammer as well.

Methot: has a NTC and wasn’t coming to Canada, it was reported at the time of the expansion draft so he wasn’t an option.

 

[McNuge]

That is one presumed narrative that requires a lot of conjecture. Pro players don't generally give up. The far easier one is that its just a lot easier to be a D in Pittsburgh than it was here.
EVERY D the Pens obtain does better there than they performed anywhere else and better than expected to. When your team has the puck 66% of the time its easier to be a D. (throwing a number out of a hat but the pens typically do possess the puck a crazy amount of time. )

For sure, always good to have nice convos on here once in a blue moon . believe me when I say I think Drai is just an amazing player. I remember seeing him play in the WJC as a 16 year old on a line with Tobias Reider (my favorite Kitchener ranger) and being just blown away. After watching that one WJC game Drai instantly became my favorite prospect, and when we drafted him I think i was yelling louder than when we won the McDavid Lotto. I love Drai, but he is not in the same category as Malkin yet, he is in the category of Getzlaf and Kopi IMO, he is just a tier below Malkin.

I also 100% agree that all D that go to Pitts look better than anywhere else. But I would argue that they improve so much because of the players they are passing the puck to, rather than some switch being turned on and they are now somehow top caliber D when they've been barely able to crack their previous teams top 4. Last year when McDavid's line was on the ice our D would look exceptional at times as well. Now most of the time they would just make quick, simple, easy plays to get the puck to McDavid or Drai, and those 2 would do work making the D look much better than they actually were.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

Chia built a solid team.

These days, tho, you need fast skilled shoot first wingers (hall, yakupov) and smooth skating puck moving defencemen (jultz, petry).

Or We had that team and it sucked. Sucked real hard.

 

[Jesus Take the Wheel]

I'm going to wait a while before making any sort of conclusion on Chia's offseason. Theres still to many small sample size aberrations that will iron themself out in the longrun

 

[redgrant]

Hamonic: I’d love to know what was discussed because this seems like a no-brainer. Either Chiarelli doesn’t like Hamonic or he thought the price was too high.

Demers: same awful contract as Russell IMO. Plus he had a NTC and maybe he didn’t want to come here? He did veto a deal to Vancouver didn’t he?

Hjalmarson: for some reason the Hawks wanted Murphy, I don’t get it either. Would’ve liked to have had Hammer as well.

Methot: has a NTC and wasn’t coming to Canada, it was reported at the time of the expansion draft so he wasn’t an option.

My point is its awfully frustrating that apparently half a dozen GMs can make something happen from nothing while Chiarelli has to apparently trade first rounders and first line wingers to get a Dman.

That is not a good GM that must always overpay.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

My point is its awfully frustrating that apparently half a dozen GMs can make something happen from nothing while Chiarelli has to apparently trade first rounders and first line wingers to get a Dman.

That is not a good GM that must always overpay.

Flames have used 1st rounders on both Hamilton and Hamonic and look how good they are!

 

[Canovin]

Flames have used 1st rounders on both Hamilton and Hamonic and look how good they are!

You do realize the Oilers are sitting below them

 

[McFlash97]

Chiarelli gets way to much credit here. McDavid and Draisaitl are the sole reasons this team went places. If those 2 are out for any length of time, this team is utter trash. Chia made 1 good trade and that's to bring Talbot in. The difference between larsson and Hall are negligible although Larsson is a good pick up, we did not need to lose Hall to get him. I am pretty sure there was another deal there for him to make. Chia did not do anything to bring in McDavid and Draisaitl. Its being handed the keys to a supercar but the previous driver was terrible at it , so we bought in an average driver. We did not go look for a pro. This summer his GM skills were on full display. Signing 97 and 29 was a foregone conclusion. Any GM would have been able to ink those guys, however outside of that he was atrocious.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Chia built a solid team.

These days, tho, you need fast skilled shoot first wingers (hall, yakupov) and smooth skating puck moving defencemen (jultz, petry).

Or We had that team and it sucked. Sucked real hard.

He built a big strong slow team the year after a fast team won the cup. And then won it again. He built a team to compete in the division, this team as constructed would never sniff a cup sadly..

The trades and players he brings in aren't usually bad. He just tends to either... Overpay or give up way to much.

He also for his own sake needs to stay away from Snow in like 4 years he gave up, Boychuk, Eberle, 1st, 2nd for Strome, Reinhart, 2 2nds.

Thats a pure garbage return.

 

[McShogun99]

The problem with PC is that he was trying to rebuild the 2010 Bruins but that brand of hockey is dying out to a speed game now. He's a good Gm and he will adapt but we may lose this season while he fixes things for next year. He gambled to much on sophomore players taking the next step but so far they have been horrible. The biggest holes we had was a top 4 RD and a top 6 RW yet he did nothing, instead he traded away our only legit top 6 RW for a failing young player, resigned Russel for 2 years to long and wasted contract spots on AHL players. It was a complete failure of an offseason for us.