Confidence in the Front Office

[Brooklyn Ranger]

When you never reward good moves the guys who spend the most time in the business will look worst though.

Easy fix--start the GM off at 0: add a point for a good move, subtract a point for a bad one. A GM with a positive score has more good moves than bad.

Of course, the biggest problem with grading this organization is no one really knows how much influence/control Sather still has....

 

[pld459666]

Fair enough. But indulge me and go back to my example.

When the Rangers traded Tony Amonte he was 23 or so years old and coming off back-to-back 30 goal seasons. They traded him for two players who were not as productive and were also older. On the surface, that's a bad trade. But those trades helped the Rangers win the Cup.

Is that a bad trade? Not trying to be combative, just throwing a question out there.

I believe it was a terrible trade. Then and now.

I believe we would have had an easier time with the Devils having both Gartner and Amonte than with the other three.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

I believe it was a terrible trade. Then and now.

I believe we would have had an easier time with the Devils having both Gartner and Amonte than with the other three.

I've always leaned that way too. But, the Rangers won, so I don't spend a lot of time obsessing about it--although Gartner was one of my favorite players and I wish he had been around to lift the Cup.

 

[pld459666]

I would have loved the speed of that team if we kept Marchant weight Amonte and Gartner. Wow

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Rangers traded Saarela and 2 seconds to Carolina for the husk of Eric Staal (even if you were confident about Staal, it was a questionable move for a team that was clearly trending down), and sat idly as Yandle's tenure was botched by AV. Front office doesn't deserve a lot of confidence right now.

So?

How does trading a "nothing yet" and including the success over the last decade equate the Rangers management anywhere near the teams I listed?

 

[Baby Punisher]

I don't mind the St Louis or Yandle trades too much, though perhaps they paid more than they should have, since they had legitimate reasons to go for it and they almost paid off. A lot of times you have to sacrifice some to make a cup run and the Rangers took their shots.

The Staal trade was pretty bad though...the team had been inconsistent all season and struggled defensively and didn't look like the same team it was in previous years, but they still gave up some pretty good assets for a guy who did nothing. If Staal had played real well and the Rangers done better and pushed for another Cup appearance it'd be one thing, but it was a gamble they really didn't need to make and it delayed restocking that needed to be done.

Not sure how I feel about confidence in management restocking the cupboard...just will have to see I guess, trying not to expect things either way

How many times have we seen teams playing up and down and a trade deadline deal revived them to a cup run. The Rangers were hoping to catch lighting in a bottle with the Staal trade. All the ingredients were there, they just didn't mix well.

 

[Samuel Culper III]

I have virtually no confidence in our front office.

BUT, that's really no fault of their own.

First, the current management inherited a situation that Sather largely created. The lack of youth in the system is unfortunate but not really Gorton's doing.

Much more importantly, however, I have no confidence because we are talking about the New York Rangers. The team from Manhattan that plays in Madison Square Garden above Penn Station. The team that is owned by the Dolan's, who also own the Knicks and Cablevision.

What I mean is, it really doesn't matter who is running the show because they will never be able to run it purely as a hockey organization whose focus is winning a Cup. The owner isn't a hockey fan and the broader fan base isn't the most hockey savvy. The owner is a businessman and the fan base is laden with NY band-wagoners who know the Rangers are usually a playoff team and thus, they must be good.

The reason this negates any good will I would otherwise have for the personnel in charge of making the hockey decisions is that:

1. The team will be run like a business. "Accepting" a losing season or two in order to restock the cupboards, sell off valuable assets and build a strong contender will never be in the cards because the team that we have has a 4/5 shot of at least making the playoffs, and that means playoff revenue and another year of jersey and merchandise sales from NY fans who only know "they're a playoff team every year", and thus they must be good.

2. The fan base, not generally comprised of ravenous hockey fans like ourselves who spend the off season on a message board going over every league wide move with a fine toothed comb, will never accept a losing season either. The concept of recouping lost draft picks that are vital to continued success is completely alien to the average casual that composes a large percentage of the fan base in a city like New York. Missing the playoffs results in angry fans who don't really understand the sport griping about how "I thought the Rangers were supposed to be good". Further, selling off any marquee players likely has the same result.

Dolan knows that the fanbase is fickle in NY. He knows that being in the race, even if it's all a charade, is good for merchandise sales and will usually guarantee at least two playoff home games (which at MSG = $$$). The large portion of the fanbase who don't know the difference between being "in the race" and actually being a contender won't tolerate a season in the basement.

Even when Hank is 40 and either retired, seriously declined or no longer a Ranger, the team will never willingly accept a losing season for development purposes. Every year they will try to make the show because the playoff gate alone is worth it to the Dolan money machine.

 

[Barnaby]

This offseason is the turning point for me. I hated the Staal trade, but I'll give Gorton a pass. I want to see what this team does now that it's abundantly clear that this isn't a contender. I want to see what they do to correct their biggest issues. If they do nothing, or get older, then that's an issue.

 

[silverfish]

I'm gonna go through every transaction and give -1 to Gorton starting at last year's draft (ie. The Hagelin trade, automatic -1 to begin)...

Highlighted below are the transactions I'm deducting points from Gorton on...

6/27/15 - Hagelin trade. I understand the business side of it, but the return was not good. -1 (99)
12/3/15 - Recalled Tanner Glass -1 (98)
1/21/16 - Signed Paille -1 (97)

Gotta say that a 97 for a full off-season + another season probably isn't that bad, all things considered. I'd imagine the rest of you guys have him at 96 though due to the Staal trade.

I'd like to subtract one for losing Yandle, and for having Girardi on this team still, but if the guy's hands are tied, well, the guy's hands are tied

 

[RangerBoy]

Kovacs was one of the players acquired in the Talbot trade. Gropp was one of the players acquired in the Hagelin trade. If one or both pan out,those trades don't look so bad. The Blues got a 2nd(#35) and a conditional 3rd in 2018(if Calgary re-signs Elliott).The Talbot value is right there. Elliott is more proven. Elliott is a better goaltender.

 

[RangerBoy]

I'm gonna go through every transaction and give -1 to Gorton starting at last year's draft (ie. The Hagelin trade, automatic -1 to begin)...

Highlighted below are the transactions I'm deducting points from Gorton on...

6/27/15 - Hagelin trade. I understand the business side of it, but the return was not good. -1 (99)
12/3/15 - Recalled Tanner Glass -1 (98)
1/21/16 - Signed Paille -1 (97)

Gotta say that a 97 for a full off-season + another season probably isn't that bad, all things considered. I'd imagine the rest of you guys have him at 96 though due to the Staal trade.

I'd like to subtract one for losing Yandle, and for having Girardi on this team still, but if the guy's hands are tied, well, the guy's hands are tied

Gorton wasn't the GM for the Hagelin trade.

 

[Off Sides]

Not speaking to you personally, but I just find it funny that so many people here were ok with the move at the time, and now with full hindsight hate the move and blame Gorton. It's ok to hate the move in hindsight, you can't retroactively blame management and still yell and scream on these forums that you know how to fix the team.

Here is my most honest in depth post on the team before last year started.

There is a lot of hits and some misses in there (mostly Girardi) but concerning Hagelin

The loss of Hagelin will hurt. He was a much better player than most give him credit for. The team in general is a worse PK team and they lose some of their speed identity.

I'd actually say even with that I underestimated the effect it would have on the team but I was never one of those who was calling him something to the effect of a dime a dozen 3rd liner.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=107606441&postcount=44

 

[silverfish]

Gorton wasn't the GM for the Hagelin trade.

I'd imagine he had quite a bit of say in the deal since he was about to take over. I'm happy to pin it on him.

 

[RangerBoy]

The Rangers need to rebuild. The Yankees front office wants to rebuild while ownership wants to stay on the same course. Someone leaked the story. It was probably Cashman to put pressure on ownership to sell. The Rangers have too many issues. Bad contracts on D. The entire D needs to be rebuilt. That takes a lot work and patience. Lundqvist will be 35 in March. The organization needs as many young players and picks as possible. That takes time and patience. Some of their core pieces are getting older. Nash is 32. Both Brassard and Zuccarello will both be 29 in September. Both of them will be at the end of their contracts or their current contracts will have already expired by the time the Rangers are on the right path again. Girardi will be 33. Klein will be 32. Staal will be 30. Gorton and his staff have so much work to do with their franchise.

 

[Off Sides]

Overall we still do not really now if or when Gorton has/had full control or not.

Hagelin was traded on June 27th, Gorton named GM July 1st, did Sather really make that trade knowing in a couple days he was going to hand over the reins?

My feelings, last year was a transition year where Sather still held the overriding majority vote. I'm thinking/hoping it was his last kick at the can as well.


______

I also tend to put weight into what Nothing As It Seems posted above, however even under those mandates I think a GM can still also fulfill building a team to contend, while also marketing it just as well to the lesser ravenous fans.

The Blues for example, other than Tarasenko I'm not sure they have one really marketable player on that team, but they contend enough for there still to be a market. They did not go out of their way to acquire Tarasenko, they just took a relatively low risk by using one of their two 1st round picks on him that draft. Would a Tarasenko make the Rangers more marketable? If the Rangers had multiple 1st rounders in a draft could they get a player like that?

They'd have to trust the system put in place to identify that type of player, and then select them for most likely several drafts. Sometimes there is a Getzlaf and Perry available, or a Weber, or a ROR, sometimes not, increase the odds by having those picks. If they can get a Duclair, Dubinsky, Callahan, Fast, Lindberg, Stepan with non 1sts, and they can get a Kreider with a late first, Buch, Skjei, the goalies who are very good prospects, they have something going right for them in their draft and development program, just trust it more, give them more chances and eventually they likely have a marketable team that both contends and has that sort of get off your seat talent on it.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I have about 5-10% confidence in the front office. I hope/think Gorton can work his way out of the crap situation he as given, but I also see the reality that they might make things worse. There's more of a chance of things going bad than things going good so.

If the team just publicly gave us a direction they're going, I'd have a lot more confidence. I've said it before, but give me something I can believe in and I'll be happy

 

[Mikos87]

I have very little confidence in Gorton.

To me he's not a guy that will make a deal to fill a need.

IMO they are really not a group that's willing to make that forward thinking move.

He's a guy that reminds me of Marshall Johnston from the old Sens teams that never wanted to make a move to fill bigger needs.

That's how you had these dominant Sens teams that would go into the playoffs with a fringe goalie like Patrick Lalime

In Gordon's case it's with the defense.

 

[nsvoyageurs]

The Rangers need to rebuild. The Yankees front office wants to rebuild while ownership wants to stay on the same course. Someone leaked the story. It was probably Cashman to put pressure on ownership to sell. The Rangers have too many issues. Bad contracts on D. The entire D needs to be rebuilt. That takes a lot work and patience. Lundqvist will be 35 in March. The organization needs as many young players and picks as possible. That takes time and patience. Some of their core pieces are getting older. Nash is 32. Both Brassard and Zuccarello will both be 29 in September. Both of them will be at the end of their contracts or their current contracts will have already expired by the time the Rangers are on the right path again. Girardi will be 33. Klein will be 32. Staal will be 30. Gorton and his staff have so much work to do with their franchise.

The comparison between the Rangers and Yankees is very apt. As a fan of both, I want both would go into a rebuild, but we all know the ownership of both teams don't want to go that route, despite the hockey/baseball managements of both teams seeming to be leaning to want to go in that direction. Dolan is a celebrity groupie, doesn't give a **** about hockey; Steinbrenner knows nothing about baseball and Randy Levine is an idiot/windbag. He's only there because he was a George butt boy.

I agree that neither team should just "give guys away" just for the sake of moving them. If the market isn't there for them, then it doesn't make sense to trade guys for 50 cents on the dollar. The market for Beltran is limited to AL teams (he can DH) and they are plenty of opther OF's on the trade market (supply and demand), Sabathia has a 25M vesting option for next year, Teixeira is always hurt, ARod is done; Miller has value (2 more years, 9M per), but they don't want to move him; Chapman is a rental; they'd be nuts to move Betances. The Rangers have a bunch of no move clauses/onerous contracts (Nash/Staal/Girardi); have a 8.5M cap for 5-6 more years goalie they can't move because he's the "face of the franchise", has a NMC and doesn't want to go anywhere (Lundqvist) no one wants without the Rangers retaining significantly and/or taking back a bad contract themselves. They are getting lowball offers for guys that have actual value, or they are overvaluing these guys, i.e. asking for the moon (Kreider, Stepan and Brassard). For some inexplicable reason the Garden would rather spin in perpetual mediocrity finishing just in or just out of the playoffs for the sake of maybe getting a couple of playoff gates (part of the reason for this is the fact the Knicks have made the NBA playoffs once or twice in the last 15 years, leaving a lot of empty nights in MSG during the spring; the Rangers long term plan shouldn't have to suffer because of the Knicks ineptitude).

Both teams are in a bad spot. NYY are at .500 trying to determine if they are legitimately in it or not. As long as they keep the "big 3" at the back of the bullpen, they'll stay at that .500 mark, which is nowhere land. They Rangers had a pretty good 5 year run, but it's run it's course; unfortunately they couldn't win a Cup, but it is what it is. This core is done as a legit contender; they need more than a tweak or two to compete for a Cup again. Time to move on, get to work on building the "next generation" of Rangers that can compete for the Stanley Cup in the not-too-distant future.

 

[Inferno]

The Rangers need to rebuild. The Yankees front office wants to rebuild while ownership wants to stay on the same course. Someone leaked the story. It was probably Cashman to put pressure on ownership to sell. The Rangers have too many issues. Bad contracts on D. The entire D needs to be rebuilt. That takes a lot work and patience. Lundqvist will be 35 in March. The organization needs as many young players and picks as possible. That takes time and patience. Some of their core pieces are getting older. Nash is 32. Both Brassard and Zuccarello will both be 29 in September. Both of them will be at the end of their contracts or their current contracts will have already expired by the time the Rangers are on the right path again. Girardi will be 33. Klein will be 32. Staal will be 30. Gorton and his staff have so much work to do with their franchise.

can ya link me? wanna read the article..

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

can ya link me? wanna read the article..

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2016/07/14...ild-the-yankees-steinbrenner-and-levine-dont/

 

[nyr2k2]

I think he's preparing to rebuild. The Staal trade may have been a last-ditch effort to win. I'm neutral on the front office.

 

[Riche16]

I mean, I guess at this point the jury is out right?

He has some bad contracts that most likely cannot be moved. He has some players that could be moved but not for anything great return wise. Then he has players that he doesn't want to move or shouldn't move unless it was a complete and ridiculous over-payment.

Combine that with a barren cupboard and you have the NYR.

As some have said, the situation will take TIME to resolve... it's not a one off-season fix.

As of now I'm not all that optimistic or confident but I'm probably basing that more off of the cold, harsh reality of the situation rather than my beliefs in Gorton and his staff.

 

[KreiderHouseRules*]

its all relative though...a few years ago i felt a lot better about this team, till they started trading futures like candy.

It's not even about that.

Outside of the Eric Staal trade, those trades did make us better short-term which was the goal, and MSL got us within 3 wins (really within a few goalposts) of a Stanley Cup. Yandle got us within 1 game of being back in the SCF.

It's letting Stralman go and thinking Girardi would be the better player going forward.

It's signing Dan Boyle "for offense from the blue line" when every SJS fan, writer, and commentator knew he was already DONE.

It's letting Boyle go over 500k, trading Dorsett for a pick and then signing Tanner ****ing Glass at 1.45M for three years!

It's trading Hagelin (for an awful return) "because we have no cap space" instead of finding a way to make him fit. They could've traded Staal last season. They could've maybe even traded Girardi. They could've traded or bought out Boyle to make room. There was a way to do it and once again, they severely underestimated the importance of the player to the team. Hagelin was the motor of this team, and he always played well in the playoffs. Look what he did for Pittsburgh, especially in the playoffs.

That's why I don't trust this front office to accurately assess talent or performance.

I want my team to trade 1st rounders to try to put us over the top.

The MSL trade I make 100x over. The guy's a future hall of famer and he helped us get to the SCF. If Kreider and McDonagh don't hit 17 posts, and Nash could hit an open net, we win The Cup in 2014.

The Yandle trade was meh...the picks are fine, it's Duclair that really hurt for a player who can put up points but not much else. And I'm a big Yandle fan, I just think that was severe overpayment, even with the 50% retention taken into consideration.

The Staal trade was terrible. We were an inconsistent team with no chemistry and no heart. That's not the time to trade two 2nds and a top prospect for a rental who was declining and had an awful year, especially when we were bidding against....zero other teams.

I don't know how anyone could have faith in this coaching staff or this management after the past 2 years. We were a legitimate Cup contender with a young core, a few great prospects, and the best goalie in the world. Since then we've traded away or let walk the heart and soul "glue" players who made this team what it was. You don't break up chemistry like that, and I wouldn't have even let Pouliot go. I would take him at 4M right now easily. We finally had a line with great puck possession and that intangible chemistry and we just let him go for nothing because he asked for what, 500k-1M more than we wanted? So we could waste 1.45M on Glass, and re-sign undrafted broken down action hero, Dan Girardi, cyclops Marc Staal, and grey beard Oldman Boyle? I just vomited in my mouth.

 

[NYRFAN218]

I mean, I guess at this point the jury is out right?

He has some bad contracts that most likely cannot be moved. He has some players that could be moved but not for anything great return wise. Then he has players that he doesn't want to move or shouldn't move unless it was a complete and ridiculous over-payment.

Combine that with a barren cupboard and you have the NYR.

As some have said, the situation will take TIME to resolve... it's not a one off-season fix.

As of now I'm not all that optimistic or confident but I'm probably basing that more off of the cold, harsh reality of the situation rather than my beliefs in Gorton and his staff.

That's basically how I feel. After what I've seen so far this offseason, I will say I'm slightly more confident.

Gorton came into a BAD situation. A team where it's window was coming closer to a close, had bad long term contracts handed out to less than ideal players, and a barren prospect pool after multiple trades depleted the system of prospects and picks.

To be completely honest, it may sound extreme but how many worse situations can you jump into as a GM? The team was still very competitive and debateably a contender but it's clear they were on the downswing and they had no money to spend, no assets to trade (in terms of prospects and picks), and long term commitments to bad players.

This is going to take a bit to fix. It's going to require smart retooling (think finding a Stralman, trading a Gaborik for multiple pieces) and patience. I feel more confident now because I saw them stay the course and not make a trade for the sake of making a trade and identify key problems with this team and fill them with valuable players on the cheap. No more signings of guys like Stoll and Malone for "leadership, experience, and grit." Actual guys that can play in todays game and contribute for almost next to nothing.

The previous two offseasons were flat out disasters riddled with mistakes. Trade deadlines of years past can be considered even worse. Right now it is what it is. I have no issue with them riding it out with the current team and seeing where they stand at the deadline or next offseason. Nash may have a very good year and rebuild his value. Maybe Staal and Girardi prove to be competent defensemen and restore some value to deal them. Does Hayes emerge and make someone like Brassard more expendable to try and recoup even younger assets?

This team is not winning the Stanley Cup next year whether they got rid of Staal and/or Girardi or not IMO. It would have been nice to try and find a home for them and/or buy them out but it doesn't look like that's the case. So play out the year, let some of the kids develop (Skjei, Buch, Hayes, McIlrath, Miller) further and see where we are down the road.

 

[RangerBlues]

I dont see any similarities between the Rangers and Yankees.
At all.
In Slats we trust.