Common Sense Line-up for 2014-2015

[Frk It]

5 goals without major power-play -time. Also second most 22 shots after Zetterberg (28) on the team. You guys must hate to see that happening.

Yeah, I hate players playing well. Not.

What I hate is proclaiming something that has been proclaimed on this board like 100 times in the last 3 years, and then always proves to not be the case.

With an awesome sample size of what... 6-7 games?

Edit: All I'm saying is take a wait and see approach before we say things like this. We've literally see him do this same thing before, and not be able to keep it up. It's not IMPOSSIBLE that he may be turning a corner even at a little older age than normal, but it's WAY too premature to make some of the statement we are seeing this early into a young season.

That is all.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I don't get why everyone hates on Abdelkader. Holmstrom wasn't a top 6 player, but he played in our Top 6 all the time. Abby playing on that line provides an amazing physical presence that can also pot a few here and there. As long as he's playing well (which he obviously is right now), keep him there. When he starts faltering, demote him and put someone else there (e.g. Jurco or Tatar or whoever you want).

It's not that complicated. The guy's playing like a top 6 player right now. So why would you demote him?

 

[Frk It]

I don't get why everyone hates on Abdelkader. Holmstrom wasn't a top 6 player, but he played in our Top 6 all the time. Abby playing on that line provides an amazing physical presence that can also pot a few here and there. As long as he's playing well (which he obviously is right now), keep him there. When he starts faltering, demote him and put someone else there (e.g. Jurco or Tatar or whoever you want).

It's not that complicated. The guy's playing like a top 6 player right now. So why would you demote him?

I wouldn't. I actually agree with everything that you said. Let him play his way up or down the line-up. Right now he is fine where he is.

Just pointing out, that the past has showed us that he is typically not able to sustain the spurts like he is in right now. He usually "falls to earth" and goes back to the 3rd line, and does a good job there.

I think calling him a top 6er after a stretch of less than 10 games is foolish. If that makes me a hater, I'm a hater.

 

[Winger98]

Yeah.... Abdelkader going on a hot streak and looking like a top 6er for a small number of games, and then crashing down to earth and blowing grade A chances to get demoted back to the bottom 6 is DEFINITELY something we haven't seen before.

Oh wait... It only happens every year. Totally forgot.

same thing happened with Helm for a stretch last year when he first came back and put up a bunch of points real quick. Looked like a world beater with a ridiculous shooting percentage.

I've always had less of a problem with Abdelkader in the top6 if it meant it was easier to put together more effective scoring on lines two and three, but he's got to keep up his level of play for 80 games before I really get behind him having turned some sort of corner in becoming a legit top6 player and not a complimentary player filling a role.

 

[joe89]

Not many will question Abby in the top6 when our other top6 wingers are Nyquist.. and well, no one else unless you count Z. I don't either.

Different scenario if we had Franzen, Alfie, Mantha and Weiss in the lineup. But we don't.

Just don't act like Abby is gonna be a consistent producer for an extended amount of time, I'd still put a hefty amount on that he finishes the season below 35 points.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I wouldn't. I actually agree with everything that you said. Let him play his way up or down the line-up. Right now he is fine where he is.

Just pointing out, that the past has showed us that he is typically not able to sustain the spurts like he is in right now. He usually "falls to earth" and goes back to the 3rd line, and does a good job there.

I think calling him a top 6er after a stretch of less than 10 games is foolish. If that makes me a hater, I'm a hater.

I think he has the ability to be a middle six guy though. We will see, he is ideally on a very good third line, but he does provide things to the top 6 when he is up there that cause issues for the other team. When he is playing well it is an asset, the point is right now through 10 games he is playing like a Top 6 forward and he deserves credit for it.

 

[Hammettf2b]

I wouldn't. I actually agree with everything that you said. Let him play his way up or down the line-up. Right now he is fine where he is.

Just pointing out, that the past has showed us that he is typically not able to sustain the spurts like he is in right now. He usually "falls to earth" and goes back to the 3rd line, and does a good job there.

I think calling him a top 6er after a stretch of less than 10 games is foolish. If that makes me a hater, I'm a hater.

Agreed. I've seen enough of Abby to know he can't sustain this amount of scoring. He is playing very well though right now and don't mind keeping him where he is until Babs is forced otherwise.

 

[SoupGuru]

I think if half the posters here had their way, Abby would never have been in this position to contribute.

I think that point goes over many heads here.

 

[detredWINgs]

I don't think anyone hates Abby right now. I think the hate is for posters making some "I told you so" comments based on 9 games worth of play. It's no different than the hate posters get for claiming that Howard should be a career back-up because of a 10 game slump or the like.

With regards to Abby, I thought he looked improved in the pre-season. And now it's carried over to the regular season. Does that mean he's a top 6 guy now? Hell no. But he looks like he's improved. The thing is, there was a ton of room for improvement to begin with. And he's pushing 28. It's not unheard of for the Bickells and Clarksons of the world to break out modestly once they realize how to marry their offense with their physicality, but you're setting yourself up if you think this is him emerging as a top 6 producer long-term.

 

[Frk It]

I think if half the posters here had their way, Abby would never have been in this position to contribute.

I think that point goes over many heads here.

By the same token... If Franzen doesn't get hurt, Abby's not in this position either.

The last game Franzen played, Abby was on line 3.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1754465

 

[InjuredChoker]

abdelkader's sh% 5on5 is about 4 times more than what it has been the past 3 years. it's also about 3 times more than the NHL average.

he won't keep this up.

 

[Frk It]

Welp...

Red Wings' Mike Babcock hopes to keep Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Abdelkader together all season

 

[Vladdy84]

Welp...

Red Wings' Mike Babcock hopes to keep Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Abdelkader together all season

Get Mule back in the lineup and we be OK.

Dats-Z-Gator
Mule-Helm-Nyquist
Tats-Riley-Jurco

 

[Henkka]

abdelkader's sh% 5on5 is about 4 times more than what it has been the past 3 years. it's also about 3 times more than the NHL average.

he won't keep this up.

His 5-on-5 Corsi is second best from our forwards. My God I have to hate that. But I know Mike Babcock loves that. Shoot the god damn puck.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...11&type=individual&sort=icorsi60&sortdir=DESC

And Abdelkader's 5-on-5 Fenwick is team best.

I prefer to use Fenwick for defencemen, because Fenwick is not counting blocked shots and IMO it's a skill for defencemen to get the puck on the net and not hit the blocker. Like Kindl looks suberb on Corsi (with blocked shots counted), but almost half of is shot attempts are blocked sots. Those are usually stupid plays.

But with forward shots, I prefer Corsi, because usually forward shots are from nearer areas (of the goal) and blocking is more "luck" in their shots because there's less time in opposite team players to react.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Get Mule back in the lineup and we be OK.

Dats-Z-Gator
Mule-Helm-Nyquist
Tats-Riley-Jurco

So I guess that means Netrasil sits?

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Actually I would prefer a different setup -

Franzen - Zetterberg - Nyquist
Tatar - Datsyuk - Abdelkadar
Nestrasil - Sheahan - Jurco
Miller - Helm - Glendening

I like the idea of having a big body on each line and moving Helm back to a center spot and the idea of that 4th line with the speed of pressure of the forecheck is so tempting to me

 

[InjuredChoker]

His 5-on-5 Corsi is second best from our forwards. My God I have to hate that. But I know Mike Babcock loves that. Shoot the god damn puck.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...11&type=individual&sort=icorsi60&sortdir=DESC

And Abdelkader's 5-on-5 Fenwick is team best.

so? those numbers are similar to what he had last year when he scored 9 goals 5on5. and the previous year when he scored 8.

only thing that tells us is how conservative babs makes them play and how D isn't that good at moving the puck. abdelkader doesn't crack even top 100 in individual shot attempts.

 

[joe89]

So I guess that means Netrasil sits?

Who else is there to sit? We don't have to waive him either with the Weiss injury.

And yes, Andersson > Nestrasil.

 

[Henkka]

so? those numbers are similar to what he had last year when he scored 9 goals 5on5. and the previous year when he scored 8.

only thing that tells us is how conservative babs makes them play and how D isn't that good at moving the puck. abdelkader doesn't crack even top 100 in individual shot attempts.

He is our best player to play that grinder and "homer" role currently. Is physical, goes to hard areas. And he does nice on advanced stats. I really don't care about is scoring (because I appreciate his important dirty work with my eye-test more than those points), but he is also scoring right now.

I still can't understand what a **** is this god damn negativity against Abdelkader in here? "His production is going to come down", of course it is, even Holmström couldn't score almost point per game rate and at 50 goal pace. But that's not the point. Point is, that he gives the best possible tool to give a great line chemistry for our best players, so our best players can shine. Period.

Abdelkader is doing well in every possible way, and somebody like Darren helm is not doing well when they are trying to convert him to same kind of role and those kind of guys and actions from our coaching staff deserve the heat. Not Abdelkader.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I expect Abby will get a lot of time in the top 6 and I expect he will continue to put up points. He is becoming the scoring winger we need for Pav. This is Babcock brilliance at work. The goals he scored last night were anything but flukes. He is playing quick and decisive with a lot of confidence and it is paying off. He is becoming a core veteran.

 

[Actual Thought*]

He is our best player to play that grinder and "homer" role currently. Is physical, goes to hard areas. And he does nice on advanced stats. I really don't care about is scoring (because I appreciate his important dirty work with my eye-test more than those points), but he is also scoring right now. I still can't understand what a **** is this god damn negativity against Abdelkader in here?

Abdelkader is doing well, and somebody like Darren helm is not doing well when they are trying to convert him to same kind of role and those kind of guys and actions from our coaching staff deserve the heat. Not Abdelkader.

I love Helm. He has elite speed. Unfortunately he seems to skate faster than he thinks. He doesn't have time to have the patience of a goal scorer. He is too busy flying around at breakneck speed creating chaos. He gets tons of chances but finishes few.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I still can't understand what a **** is this god damn negativity against Abdelkader in here?

I don't understand who you're talking to. I haven't seen much negativity about Abdelkader in probably at least a half a season. We all seem to like how hard he works. Granted people have said things like "his current shooting percentage is unsustainable" or "he's not a true first liner", but those aren't really controversial statements.

 

[InjuredChoker]

He is our best player to play that grinder and "homer" role currently. Is physical, goes to hard areas. And he does nice on advanced stats. I really don't care about is scoring (because I appreciate his important dirty work with my eye-test more than those points), but he is also scoring right now.

I still can't understand what a **** is this god damn negativity against Abdelkader in here? "His production is going to come down", of course it is, even Holmström couldn't score almost point per game rate and at 50 goal pace. But that's not the point. Point is, that he gives the best possible tool to give a great line chemistry for our best players, so our best players can shine. Period.

Abdelkader is doing well in every possible way, and somebody like Darren helm is not doing well when they are trying to convert him to same kind of role and those kind of guys and actions from our coaching staff deserve the heat. Not Abdelkader.

abdelkader has good possession numbers bc he plays often with one of the best possession players in the league. he's been 50% corsi player on a 52% corsi team when he's away from datsyuk. euro twins have slowed down so having someone who is great at puck retrieval makes some sense. abdelkader isn't terrible at but it nothing special either. and it's all away from scoring since he's not good at that either. datsyuk hasn't been tried much with someone like nyquist. and when he has, they have teared it apart, their numbers together are way better than what datsyuk has with abdelkader.

my eye-test says that abdelkader doesn't have skills or vision to play with those guys, though he's improved. maybe it works this season but i have my doubts.

maybe they should stop using that 'homer' role as much. since many top lines in the league don't use one and we don't have a good one.

it's not really against abdelkader, more on his usage. his fine there at times, like when injuries strike and is good depth player to have. but if you have player like him on the first line, well, that says a lot about the team.

 

[Yemack]

Wings play puck possession game and we do it by winning the board battle. It has been pretty much foundation of this team since ... many years. Hmmm I wonder why Abby is on that line.

The winger on euro twins' line is there to put pressure, win the puck, and get the puck. Idealy you dont want to Datsyuk and Zetterberg getting tired wasting their energy fighting for the puck against other teams top D pairing. It's going to happen but it's nice if someone else is out there that can be counted upon.

Having Alfredsson or any other skill player on D and Z's wings is terrible idea and not a common sense by any stretch. The best way to utilize D and Z pair against other teams top line always has been that way. ZDH line didnt come into own because they followed what everyone else was doing in league, it worked because it maximized the use of their talents.

Abdelkader is one of the best in this team at it and he seems to be figuring out what to do, where to go more and more. He is different from Homer obviously because Homer had experience and understood flow of the game very well. He knew when to hold on to puck when to pass it up to etc. Abby is more straightforward type of player with alot of hustle. It's going to be a different line and it's an adjustment for Datsyuk and Zetterberg as well, give it a time. Obviously Abby will be on microscope because if the line doesnt perform, it's his fault. Same thing happend with Homer as well.

btw There is no use arguing really. Whether some of you guys like it or not, whether Abby does/does not score at current pace, you know you are going to see that line combo over time. Unless someone can do the job better.

 

[InjuredChoker]

datsyuk with (the past two years)

abdelkader - goals for: 61.9% corsi for: 56.7%
alfie - goals for: 61.9% corsi for: 59.6%
franzen - goals for: 61.1% corsi for: 59.7%
nyquist - goals for: 66.7% corsi for: 60.3% (71.4% and 64.5% respectively, if we go back 3 years)
brunner - goals for: 66.7 % corsi for: 57.0%

not really seeing how abdelkader has improved puck possession. goals for and against rate is similar as it was with alfie and franzen but the sample size is pretty small so corsi is usually the better predictor. datsyuk has basically identical corsi, whether he's with or without abdelkader. if abdelkader were good at winning board battles and retrieving pucks, this should show up in corsi. it doesn't.