Classic Wrestling Discussion (as in non-current): Part II

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These Are The Days

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May 17, 2014
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They could of done better with Sting, but Goldberg always had a set half-life. Was just the nature of his gimmick and the fact he can't wrestle. They could of done better to get more value out of him towards the end, but he was never going to save them.

Also this reminds me how much of an ass Nash is.

It's such a shame that Bischoff unknowingly sewed the seeds of WCW's demise when he brought in all the ex WWF talent and rode them to the top. In return also promised many of them creative control. By the end the whole thing just became a giant power trip by the same few guys. I don't blame guys like Giant and Jericho for jumping ship because despite being ex WCW talent Vince treated them exceptionally well and they were treated like the superstars they should have been in WCW almost immediately. Not to mention that these two men in particular had very good WWF/WWE careers in their own right

I'm sure being pushed was part of the deal when they signed with WWF but it just shows how much of a way Vince has with people to convince his own talent to put over guys that were previously on the competition and not to mention how many times a wrestler can leave and then come back to him.
 

Emperoreddy

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Though Vince treated the guys who came over after the buyout like absolute ****.

Even weirder that the guys that held out and came in late actually got decent treatment, while the guys that took less money (DDP, Booker at first) got handed **** sandwiches. It luckily worked out for Booker. Though I guess it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows for Rey despite his earning power. Worst booked champ ever.

Sting wasn't used great either
 

DenisSamson3

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I'd like to think that WCW would have been successful that if after Starrcade 97 if they just stopped the whole NWO nonsense and focused on pushing all the young talent that they had. I'm not gonna claim I'm well versed in WCW politics at the time but if Sting goes over Hogan clean at Starrcade and then wins the subsequent rematch and has a lengthy run as champion along with pushing the ever popular Goldberg, I'd like to imagine the company would have had a nice run. Maybe build for something like a Goldberg vs Sting rematch at Starrcade 98 if you want to assume Goldberg would have won the WCW championship and suffered his first career loss by then.

Not that I know better than WCW but that sure as **** sounds a lot better than booking another solid year of NWO politics just to screw over 40,000 paying customers on live television with the most anticlimactic conclusion in wrestling history with the stupid finger poke of doom. Guys like Bischoff and Hogan can deny all they want but as fan watching through the history I can definitively point to 1/4/99 as the night WCW officially died. After 4/19/99 they pulled a 4 in the ratings only one more time for the rest of it's history.

WWF was far from perfect at the time but whether it took a while or not they ALWAYS gave the fans what they wanted.

What would the effect be if nitro moved to another day in 1999? Say a Thursday or Friday. Would they have gotten some viewers back who had jumped ship to wwe or would it be similar to tna. Wcw still had access to a ton of viewers from the channel they were on, something which tna has not had the last few years.
 

Kimi

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The thing to remember about WCW back then was that there were a lot of old WCW fans. They only watched WCW and never watched WWF. When WCW closed, those fans stop watching wrestling instead of going to watch WWF. And the same was true for WWF.

So (assuming your audience moved wth you, which isn't a sure thing in TV) you'd have some increase, but it won't be massive. You wouldn't take everyone who watches Raw and add them to the Nitro viewership. And content burn out was a thing back then too, and it was harder to watch TV with the lack of DVRs and everything that we have now. So those who did flip channels on a Monday might not follow you to another day.


Also, people stop watching WCW 'cos it was terrible and WWF picked up. Changing the day doesn't do anything to fix that.
 

Ozz

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WCW already had Thunder on Thursdays. It's hard to recall now but I think I remember enjoying that more for a long stretch of time. I'm sure some of you guys remember - wasn't that geared more toward showcasing the mid-card talent?
 

Kimi

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I remember Thunder being horrible?
Yup. It was.

Thunder happened the same time as Nitro went to three hours. They didn't have enough content for the three hours, let alone an entire extra show. It went as badly as you expect it to. There were probably some enjoyable bits, as there were some good guys in the company, but that wasn't the norm.
 

Ozz

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I wish I had a better memory, but it gained a lot of traction after its early stages. Then, as mentioned, it got expanded and things went downhill. It was no #1 show, but for those sick of the same NWO stuff week after week, we found a hidden gem in Thunder. I'm blurry on who had great showings on Thunder, but I want to say Raven's Flock, Jericho, and guys of that ilk. I know they had their appearances on Nitro too.
 

Kimi

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The bits that would have been good would have been the performers being good opposed to anything else.

Early 1998 is when Jericho really turned into Y2J. He went from being not-Jericho to the guy we know today more or less overnight. Like if you took 1998 Jericho and put him on Raw, you'd not notice the difference (other than suddenly finding him a couple of decades younger). So if he was there it would have probably been good.
 

DenisSamson3

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So when Thunder came did that relegate Saturday night heat to third place? After nitro started they were still advertising Saturday night heat every show.
I know the three hour Nitros has decent bits, but overall it was stretched thin and a tough watch.



Goldberg beating hall and Hogan was a three hour nitro. It felt like a Ppv though.The atmosphere and anticipation.
 

Ozz

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The bits that would have been good would have been the performers being good opposed to anything else.

Early 1998 is when Jericho really turned into Y2J. He went from being not-Jericho to the guy we know today more or less overnight. Like if you took 1998 Jericho and put him on Raw, you'd not notice the difference (other than suddenly finding him a couple of decades younger). So if he was there it would have probably been good.

Yes, the performers were great - not the writing or storylines particularly.

I was a big Jericho fan way back when he was the "Lionheart", and that's certainly not to anyone's credit but his. Same likely goes for most everyone that a great portion of fans liked back then. When the main events hit and the NWO BS came around for the 500th time, :click: right over to WWF :laugh:
 

DenisSamson3

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I was looking at the criticism Russo gets for his wcw run and noticed he actually increased ratings with WCW almost every week. WWE was doing a lot better and getting more attention so they were still winning every week. Does a lot of the crap he gets come down to his title belt and also wcw losing the battle in the end?
 

Kimi

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Cornette has a good bit on Russo:

Jim Cornette said:
“I had to spend eleven months in the same room with Vince Russo and Vince McMahon, that’s where I really got to hate life in general. They put Bruce [Prichard] in the office and put Russo on the writing team. At first, it was sort of like the Donald Pleasence line in the original Halloween, ‘For the first six years, I tried to reach him, and then I spent the next eight trying to make sure that he would never escape being locked up. Because what I saw behind those eyes was pure and simple evil.’ For the first few months I thought, ‘Okay, he is a nice, energetic guy, who doesn’t know anything about wrestling, we’re going to try to teach him. Then I figured out he didn’t want to learn, because he thought he knew what the **** he was doing and that we were all crazy … and that he wasn’t ever going to learn anything about wrestling and didn’t want to. Then, I made it my life’s mission to somehow keep anything that he did from actually seeing the light of day to the detriment of the wrestling business. Finally it got to the point where all we did was argue with each other … but Russo’s problem, besides the fact that he is from New York and he’s the worst stereotype of just an obnoxious Yankee, is that he was not a wrestling fan. He watched wrestling and liked angles and liked gimmicks. He wasn’t enough of a wrestling fan to watch and understand that all those things he saw as a child, like Piper hitting Jimmy Snuka with a coconut or whatever, those things happened every few months, and then you followed up on them so they made sense when you did them because you told the story leading up to them, explaining why these people would do these things. All Russo would remember, because he had the attention span of a ****ing junkie with a clicker on a morphine drip, were the actual incidents themselves, so he wanted to write a two-hour television show full of people hitting people over the head with coconuts, and he ****ing loved the Jerry Springer show and he thought that the wrestling fan’s IQ was that of a flea and their attention span was like his, and all they wanted to see was mayhem and carnage. He didn’t believe in baby faces and heels, because there is no such thing as good people and bad people, everybody knows that … ****ing idiot. So, he put matches together where people didn’t know who to cheer for; they didn’t know whose side who was on. That was the problem—Russo remembered all the highlights, in his little pea brain, that he had seen growing up, but he didn’t understand how they were done, why they were done, how they were led up to and how they were followed up on.â€


Russo is a very creative guy, but has no clue how to write a wrestling show. In WWF he had an filter on him to stop most of his crap getting on TV in the form of editors and other writers (and ultimately Vince having total power). In WCW he was given all the power in an already failing company and made it fail more.


And WCW's ratings didn't go up with Russo. They were down the week before he started, and then were back at the ~3.3 average before dropping toward the end of the year.
 

DenisSamson3

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Cornette has a good bit on Russo:




Russo is a very creative guy, but has no clue how to write a wrestling show. In WWF he had an filter on him to stop most of his crap getting on TV in the form of editors and other writers (and ultimately Vince having total power). In WCW he was given all the power in an already failing company and made it fail more.


And WCW's ratings didn't go up with Russo. They were down the week before he started, and then were back at the ~3.3 average before dropping toward the end of the year.

Interesting read from cornettes point of view.
 

Emperoreddy

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So what was true and what was false about WWE's story about that while Slaughter Iraqi sympathizer angle?

I know they attempted to claim Mania was moved that year due to bomb threats when it reality was poor ticket sales. Did slaughter really receive significant death threats though?
 

SeidoN

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So what was true and what was false about WWE's story about that while Slaughter Iraqi sympathizer angle?

I know they attempted to claim Mania was moved that year due to bomb threats when it reality was poor ticket sales. Did slaughter really receive significant death threats though?

funnily enough WhatCulture made a video about WM7 today

they said the bomb threat may or may not have happened, but it was moved because they booked a MASSIVE venue and had sold just 16% of the tickets by February, so scaled it down
 

Kimi

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He probably got some death threats. Fan/Hate mail was like the twitter of today, except only the most dedicated would actually end up sending it. It was common for big heels to get them, just like it was for actors and everyone else famous.

But if they were significant, I wouldn't have thought so. There's nothing in the observer about any, but I don't have the pre-1991 editions to look at.
 

bruins309

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So what was true and what was false about WWE's story about that while Slaughter Iraqi sympathizer angle?

I know they attempted to claim Mania was moved that year due to bomb threats when it reality was poor ticket sales. Did slaughter really receive significant death threats though?

Slaughter did get death threats and it is said that he wore a bulletproof vest under his gear at WM7. There was no way in hell they were selling out the Coliseum. It's weird they would even try to run there given that it's a massive venue but also very dumpy.

Cheap plug: I wrote all about WM7 about a year ago. Fun fact: It used to be the most read thing on my blog by views until it was mysteriously passed by the look at 1996 Steve Austin. Lesson: Austin is more over than Hogan.

As for WM6, yeah a lot of deaths there but it's not quite caught up to WM2 on that front (perhaps due to the battle royal and more celebs)

WM2: Fuji, Savage, Liz, Steele, Piper, Joe Frazier, Moolah, Blassie, Andre, Studd, Ernie Holmes, Harvey Martin, Lou Albano, Davey Boy Smith, Hercules, Adrian Adonis, Uncle Elmer, JYD, Lord Al Hayes, Lee Marshall. And don't forget celebrities: Clara Peller (where's the beef lady), Cab Calloway, Joan Rivers, Ray Charles, Darryl Dawkins.

Egads. That was depressing looking that up.
 

iamjs

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Oct 1, 2008
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Had to look up Lee Marshall in WM2. I completely forgot that he was the ring announcer.

Also forgot that the PPV was held on a Monday.
 
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