Classic Wrestling Discussion (as in non-current): Part II

[These Are The Days]

That was late attitude era.

The stuff that Russo was doing before he jumped ship. **** was garbage.

That we can agree on. I thought you meant that Attitude Era as a whole.

But like I said so much of the problem with today's product is that it gives you such little reason to get excited. I mean right down to the music and pyro of the opening sequence. It immediately captures my attention (probably because I'm a 28 year old male) and then I say as soon as it ends, "Hey I wanna find out what Jericho has to say! What happened at Summer Slam?" Nowadays the ONLY reason a guy comes out is so he can give a veiled advertisement for the next PPV because the product no longer sells itself. I'm sure whatever Jericho did was for the purpose of driving the storyline he was involved in and not remind everyone that the next PPV is only a mere 3 weeks away.

I swear to God, Eddy if I had full control of WWE creative things would be so different that you wouldn't even be able to distinguish what you were watching as the same show we have now.

 

[Loosie]

Man Austin and Undertaker just did not have great chemistry together.

From Cold Day in Hell to SummerSlam 98 and their Buried Alive match at Rock Bottom were not great. (The buried alive match had other issues too...mainly being a buried alive match)

 

[Emperoreddy]

Man Austin and Undertaker just did not have great chemistry together.

From Cold Day in Hell to SummerSlam 98 and their Buried Alive match at Rock Bottom were not great. (The buried alive match had other issues too...mainly being a buried alive match)

They didn't and as a kid I blamed it on Austin (was a giant Taker mark).

 

[Reality Check]

The only logical conclusion I have is that they must have planned the Attitude Era as soon as Nash and Hall left for WCW or at least said, "What are we gonna do about this?"

Attitude era wasn't planned at all. Both WWE and WCW(prior to the NWO) were borderline unwatchable at times.

Thus, leading to the rise and popularity of ECW.

It wasn't until WWE was losing the ratings war, at a good clip, and decided to borrow some ideas from ECW to use on a grander scale. Which is why Vince struck up a deal with Heyman and kept the company on the payroll. Not sure how long but I think until they finally landed a national TV deal.

Without it, they could have gone under long before they actually did. WCW was taking guys left and right from ECW while WWE more/less had some type of agreement.

I lived through the entire attitude era and there was plenty of awful stuff throughout. The corporate ministry comes to mind. It's just overshadowed by the highs in that era.

In addition, things are completely different than now. It was the last time WWE had real competition and they weren't restricted by toy contracts as they are now. Also worth pointing out that Jerry Springer was extremely popular back then.

 

[DenisSamson3]

Heyman claimed on the ecw program on wwe netowrk that he didnt make any "direct" money from vince mcmahon during that time period.

 

[bruins309]

I think the genesis of "Attitude" started as early as the post-Survivor Series RAW in 1995. On that show, you had Diesel finally shedding the "smiling idiot" persona and becoming the badass he always should have been....hassling Vince at the table, etc. Also had the HBK concussion angle from the Owen Hart enziguri.

Now a lot of it got put on hold in 1996 with Diesel gone, Bret on hiatus, etc. But merely having Austin's character and the Mankind character in play started to shift things a bit in some areas.

Of course there were still the silliness of trashmen, Godwinns, etc,. But it takes time for the pot of water to boil.

 

[Kimi]

Late 90s WWF is really strange. On moment you've got DX talking about Chyna's boob job, the next segment you've got the Godwins chasing someone with a slop bucket. It really was a foot in two generations. In the mid 90s a lot of parts were in place, they just hadn't all realised what they were to become yet.

 

[Ozz]

Watched this today. Good stuff:

 

[These Are The Days]

Attitude era wasn't planned at all. Both WWE and WCW(prior to the NWO) were borderline unwatchable at times.

Thus, leading to the rise and popularity of ECW.

It wasn't until WWE was losing the ratings war, at a good clip, and decided to borrow some ideas from ECW to use on a grander scale. Which is why Vince struck up a deal with Heyman and kept the company on the payroll. Not sure how long but I think until they finally landed a national TV deal.

Without it, they could have gone under long before they actually did. WCW was taking guys left and right from ECW while WWE more/less had some type of agreement.

I lived through the entire attitude era and there was plenty of awful stuff throughout. The corporate ministry comes to mind. It's just overshadowed by the highs in that era.

In addition, things are completely different than now. It was the last time WWE had real competition and they weren't restricted by toy contracts as they are now. Also worth pointing out that Jerry Springer was extremely popular back then.

I agree about the "unwatchable" factor but I disagree that it was not planned. Considering that Hall/Nash left by May 1996 and by June and almost right away they started pushing the envelope. You've got the Austin 3:16 promo by June 1996. That summer ECW starts working it's way in -and as you eluded to started to borrow from them. There was the Pillman's got a gun segment by November and I'd say by March 1997 the Attitude Era was not only officially born, but it was growing. WWF was gonna keep pushing the edge. The only thing missing was a name for it.

By March 1997 they shot a new title video with emphasis on explosions, violence and put Marilyn Manson with it, used their metal music (done by Anthrax's Scott Ian no less) blasting as loud as possible after the intro, built a brand new "grunge" equivalent of a stage set that had the biggest fireworks display you'd ever see at the time, renamed their show "RAW IS WAR" with a completely new logo and had their biggest star go on a profanity laced tirade just 2 shows into this new era. By November of 97 we get the new WWF logo and a name for the revolution.

I imagine doing this would have taken no less than 6 months of careful planning and consideration prior to March 1997 -namely due to how expensive such a makeover would cost. I don't find it any coincidence that this all happened just in time for Mania 13 because it was gonna be the WWF's biggest possible payday.

I think it was concerted effort that took time to evolve and eventually (and reluctantly) Vince shifted from family friendly wrestling to Jerry Springer. We have to keep into account that Vince McMahon thought Scott Hall made up Razor Ramon on his own because he didn't know who or what Scarface was.

To your point, WCW was snatching guys left and right and I think as soon as Hall and Nash left Vince saw the writing on the wall and said, "Man... what the hell am I gonna do about this now?" I watch the evolution of the show and it's so drastic even by the spring of 1997 that I'd liken it to Charlotte getting a sex change operation and then turning into Seth Rollins.

 

[These Are The Days]

And to be honest WWF wasn't gonna win that ratings war until Starrcade 97 had concluded because everyone in their right minds knew that the most exciting feud in wrestling history would not come to a conclusion by then. It's not a coincidence that by Mania 14 the tide shifted to the WWF and never let go and to be honest I'm surprised it had taken that long.

PS- Oh and I know that "We're all together now" was recorded prior to Hall and Nash's departure from the company but I don't find it a coincidence that it was used to Raw's music

 

[DenisSamson3]

Was watching Jerry Springer host a show on the network and it involved crazy death moments. There was a segment where triple H was having sex with a dead body and framed Kane. That had to be one of the most outlandish story lines in the wwe.

 

[Ozz]

Was watching Jerry Springer host a show on the network and it involved crazy death moments. There was a segment where triple H was having sex with a dead body and framed Kane. That had to be one of the most outlandish story lines in the wwe.

Oh God, I remember that. Some of the things they came up with in those times were just unreal. To come up with ridiculous ideas is one thing, but to greenlight them and go for it...ugh.

 

[Augscura]

Watched Souled out 1998 yesterday, was the first WCW ppv ive watched in a long time. Forgot how good the under and mid card wrestlers were. Upper card was complete garbage. Hall vs Zbyszko, Nash vs Giant (horrifically botched ending) and Luger vs Savage were all terrible matches.

 

[Kimi]

Watched Souled out 1998 yesterday, was the first WCW ppv ive watched in a long time. Forgot how good the under and mid card wrestlers were. Upper card was complete garbage. Hall vs Zbyszko, Nash vs Giant (horrifically botched ending) and Luger vs Savage were all terrible matches.

Take WWF main events and WCW undercard, then you'll get a great PPV.

It's kinda silly how bad it was back then. It's not like this was some secret or anything, it was plain as day to everyone who watched. It was also clear that the WCW lower tier guys were the reason the undercard was good, not WCW making them look good.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Honestly it wasn't even WWF making a change to win so much as it was WCW just ******** it all away and losing.

For every good DX segment there were like two weeks of forgettable ****, tons of edgelord for the sake of edginess, and **** **** wrestling. The mid card was nightmarishly bad in a lot of places.

When they started to raid ECW for talent and WCW guys started jumping ship (and Russo also leaving) is when the show really started shifting to some quality wrestling. Plus Nitro just kept becoming more and more unwatchable.

If WCW actually pushed their mid card, the entire history of wrestling would be vastly different.

 

[Augscura]

It's kinda silly how bad it was back then. It's not like this was some secret or anything, it was plain as day to everyone who watched. It was also clear that the WCW lower tier guys were the reason the undercard was good, not WCW making them look good.

Funny you say that because at this particular show there were signs saying "Lucha Libre wrestling = bathroom break", and some of the biggest pops of the show were for NWO guys who would go on to put on a snoozer of a match. Looking back on it its plain as day, but at the time I think people were so caught up in WCW vs WWF that people really didn't care if the wrestling was good or not, they cared about how they followed the better promotion.

 

[DenisSamson3]

Funny you say that because at this particular show there were signs saying "Lucha Libre wrestling = bathroom break", and some of the biggest pops of the show were for NWO guys who would go on to put on a snoozer of a match. Looking back on it its plain as day, but at the time I think people were so caught up in WCW vs WWF that people really didn't care if the wrestling was good or not, they cared about how they followed the better promotion.

When you look at the bottom part of the nitro and raw shows on the wwe network all the segments are broken up. A lot of the matches were 2-5 min max on raw in 1997-1998.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Funny you say that because at this particular show there were signs saying "Lucha Libre wrestling = bathroom break", and some of the biggest pops of the show were for NWO guys who would go on to put on a snoozer of a match. Looking back on it its plain as day, but at the time I think people were so caught up in WCW vs WWF that people really didn't care if the wrestling was good or not, they cared about how they followed the better promotion.

I don't really think so. I know the top guys in WCW thought this and wanted the fans to think this, but once the more talented under card guys jumped ship and started getting featured feuds the ratings tipped dramatically in favor for WWF.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I completely erased the fact that Cornette was still doing things with the company into this era. He always was a New Gen WWF manager to me.

 

[bruins309]

It was always so funny how WCW and WWF were totally opposites in late 97 and into 1998.

WCW: Great undercard, horrible main events
WWF: Terrible undercard, great main events

Seriously, if you take the WCW undercards from 97-98 and pair them with WWF main events (HBK-Taker, Austin-Dude Love) you end up with probably the greatest and most watchable promotion of all time.

That might be a fun project: Take a month of PPVs and watch WCW's undercard only and WWF's main event only. Like October 1997 you get the undercard of Havoc (Rey-Eddie) and the HIAC with HBK and Taker.

 

[These Are The Days]

I completely erased the fact that Cornette was still doing things with the company into this era. He always was a New Gen WWF manager to me.

I can't even imagine him as that. I literally can't see him as anything else but a guy who spends his time on the porch screaming at everyone to get off his lawn and threatening otherwise to kick their ass and was never wrong about a thing a day in his life. I respect him because of how he reveres wrestling and would never see it subjected to anything bad but Cornette is a basket case.

For as much threatening as he does I don't Jim has actually thrown hands with anyone

 

[Ozz]

It was always so funny how WCW and WWF were totally opposites in late 97 and into 1998.

WCW: Great undercard, horrible main events
WWF: Terrible undercard, great main events

Seriously, if you take the WCW undercards from 97-98 and pair them with WWF main events (HBK-Taker, Austin-Dude Love) you end up with probably the greatest and most watchable promotion of all time.

That might be a fun project: Take a month of PPVs and watch WCW's undercard only and WWF's main event only. Like October 1997 you get the undercard of Havoc (Rey-Eddie) and the HIAC with HBK and Taker.

Those were great times in the Monday Night Wars! Aside from the frequent early/mid-show surprises on Raw, you could just tune in for the 2nd half after watching Nitro. I can't place the timeline, but at a certain point it flip-flopped and WCW had better main events (for a short while, anyway).

 

[These Are The Days]

I'd like to think that WCW would have been successful that if after Starrcade 97 if they just stopped the whole NWO nonsense and focused on pushing all the young talent that they had. I'm not gonna claim I'm well versed in WCW politics at the time but if Sting goes over Hogan clean at Starrcade and then wins the subsequent rematch and has a lengthy run as champion along with pushing the ever popular Goldberg, I'd like to imagine the company would have had a nice run. Maybe build for something like a Goldberg vs Sting rematch at Starrcade 98 if you want to assume Goldberg would have won the WCW championship and suffered his first career loss by then.

Not that I know better than WCW but that sure as **** sounds a lot better than booking another solid year of NWO politics just to screw over 40,000 paying customers on live television with the most anticlimactic conclusion in wrestling history with the stupid finger poke of doom. Guys like Bischoff and Hogan can deny all they want but as fan watching through the history I can definitively point to 1/4/99 as the night WCW officially died. After 4/19/99 they pulled a 4 in the ratings only one more time for the rest of it's history.

WWF was far from perfect at the time but whether it took a while or not they ALWAYS gave the fans what they wanted.

 

[These Are The Days]

I'd like to think that WCW could have rode "crow Sting" all through 1998 and then Goldberg all through 1999 and WCW would still have been successful enough to counter the full force of the Attitude Era. I mean it's not like they would not have had booking options.

 

[Emperoreddy]

They could of done better with Sting, but Goldberg always had a set half-life. Was just the nature of his gimmick and the fact he can't wrestle. They could of done better to get more value out of him towards the end, but he was never going to save them.

Also this reminds me how much of an ass Nash is.