Cincinnati, Kansas City, and Omaha have shown interest in NHL expansion

[Tawnos]

At this point, I'm inclined to believe you're trolling. A radius of anything is not measured by driving distance, as geometry as a study of math knows no concept of driving.

This isn’t entirely true because it isn’t a study of math, but rather a study of geography. I make custom wall maps on request by businesses as part of my job and there have definitely been “25 mile radius in driving distance” projects. Or 50 or 100. You determine all the driving distances out from a point and essentially find the average circle (when I say you, what I really mean is GIS software). In most cases, the driving distances in all directions are fairly close to the same. The circle is really for aesthetics.

That being said, the NHL territorial rights are explicitly straight-line distance, so the other poster is absolutely wrong. Just wanted to point out that the term radius is used both ways in the GIS world.

 

[dj4aces]

That being said, the NHL territorial rights are explicitly straight-line distance, so the other poster is absolutely wrong. Just wanted to point out that the term radius is used both ways in the GIS world.

This is more what I was going for, and in my haste, got it wrong. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

As someone that does some GIS for a living i find it hilarious that i'm reading this thread as i am waiting for my computer to load up so i can calculate a bunch of radii.

 

[dj4aces]

As someone that does some GIS for a living i find it hilarious that i'm reading this thread as i am waiting for my computer to load up so i can calculate a bunch of radii.

Kinda makes you wonder about a place like Milwaukee, eh? (if I recall, MKE is ~80 miles outside CHI city limits, so that's not a limiting factor)

 

[Tawnos]

As someone that does some GIS for a living i find it hilarious that i'm reading this thread as i am waiting for my computer to load up so i can calculate a bunch of radii.

Straight line or driving distance?

Geodesic distance or planar?

What projection?!?

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

Straight line or driving distance?

Geodesic distance or planar?

What projection?!?

Straight line

Planar

UTM

 

[Tawnos]

Straight line

Planar

UTM

Cool, cool. Yeah, it varies for me which one I'm using. And half the time I end up using Web Mercator just because that's what customers are used to seeing on their screen. ArcGIS or other?

 

[KevFu]

[post: 193800215, member: 63988"]
Kinda makes you wonder about a place like Milwaukee, eh? (if I recall, MKE is ~80 miles outside CHI city limits, so that's not a limiting factor)
[/QUOTE]

I'd assume as much. I don't know crow-flies distance, but it's 87 miles between Miller Park to Wrigley Field.

Chances are, if cities have teams in multiple sports leagues, it's either not to close or they bought/merged their way in.

(And remember that baseball was TWO leagues until 1999. It took two years to broker an agreement between AL and NL, and they actually voted to change their rules first. The rules were that 100% of the OTHER league had to grant permission to add a franchise in an existing market. They changed it to 75% so they could trade the votes for approving the Los Angeles Angels and New York Mets.

And BTW, if you think expanding to 36 is too many teams... Branch Rickey walked into the MLB winter meetings in 1959 (when there were 16 teams) and said baseball could die without expansion and that "at least 32 cities can and should play” in an expanded league!

 

[Anisimovs AK]

Didn't the naysayers think that Vegas would fail spectacularly?

Either someone(s) has a billion+ in pocket of willing to take that risk and/or they have studies showing it could/might work

Who from/in Cincinnati fits that bill?

 

[JMCx4]

Who from/in Cincinnati fits that bill?

Leaping to mind ... Philip Anschutz, whose business group co-owns the ECHL's Cincinnati Cyclones with The Nederlander Organization. The money is there, but it takes a lot more than money.

BTW, the Cincinnati Business Courier published interview content on this topic late last week (firewalled content) ...
'We love the idea of the NHL here': Cyclones GM shares insight on Cincinnati’s franchise chances

 

[KevFu]

They might love the idea, but the proximity of Columbus and the fact that the Reds and Bengals have traditionally been poor, small market teams... doesn't bode well.

The NBA Cincinnati Royals (NBA) moved to Kansas City. The difference between Cincy and Kansas City in terms of size of market has always been remarkably similar (and the Reds and Royals were both like, good in the 70s and pretty terrible since then save 1990 or 2015). And the NBA team left KC for Sacramento long ago because Sacramento had zero other teams and CIN/KC probably had more than they could support.


Not to mention that the Bengals stadium deal was one of the worst for taxpayers of all-time, so you're going to get serious pushback on an arena. Their current arena situation is like "the city needs a big venue for concerts and stuff!" because the one they have is old and run down. But it's old and run down because the University of Cincinnati and Xavier have their own on campus, 10,000 seat arenas, lowering the demand for not letting that arena (not sure what it's called now, at one point it was US Bank Arena) turn into a dump.

Cincinnati would be a long-shot. The NHL is definitely going to want to see how it goes financially for the MLS with both Cincy and Columbus in their league.

It would also be really easy for a "coalition" to form of teams trading votes with a principle of: "We'll protect your backyard if you protect ours." Because if you look at the "open" markets ranked in the top 60 of US/Canada and in the East... most of them are in a team's backyard:

Cincy (CBJ)
Cleveland (CBJ/BUF)
Baltimore (WAS)
Virginia Beach (WAS, CAR)
Charlotte (CAR, and if ATL is already in, them too)
Orlando (TB, FLA could oppose as well)
Hartford (BOS, NYR, NYI, NJD)
Providence (BOS)
Rochester (BUF, TOR)
Hamilton and GTA2 (TOR, BUF)
Grand Rapids (DET)

 

[BMN]

I don't think the NHL will ever seriously consider expansion to Cincinnati much less ever actually go there (the only way I imagine Cincy getting a team is some far, far, far distant future where the civic situation turns sideways for the Jackets and they just slide adjacently. Did I mention "far, far, far distant future?" OK, just wanted to be sure).

I live in Lexington and occasionally wonder if the CBJ radio network would ever expand to here (according to the website, they do have two WV stations). At least that wouldn't be in doubt if Cincinnati had a team. :-p

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The NCAA analogy doesn't fit, as they're de facto leagues in and of themselves.

And the Big Ten's expansion across four time zones isn't a good move for consumers or athletes, it's entirely for nothing more than a seizing markets mindset.

That is not a remotely sensible thing to try to copy for actual divisions, nor is giving Canadian teams a significantly easier and shorter path to a SCF something that any American team would support. It's a moot point not even worth discussing any more than a suggestion to expand to Fairbanks, Alaska.

I feel that if an American team wants the Cup so badly they should have to go through a Canadian team every single time. That's how Canadian media companies should feel (plus there would be a larger inventory of games between two Canadian teams in the regular season which should make for high ratings in Canada all season long).

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I feel that if an American team wants the Cup so badly they should have to go through a Canadian team every single time. That's how Canadian media companies should feel (plus there would be a larger inventory of games between two Canadian teams in the regular season which should make for high ratings in Canada all season long).

Canadian teams are equal to American teams. You get through four opponents, you win a Cup, be they all from Canada or all from places that haven't had snow this century. Bigger earners don't deserve anything beyond the extra money they make nor does their location equate deserving anything special.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Canadian teams are equal to American teams. You get through four opponents, you win a Cup, be they all from Canada or all from places that haven't had snow this century. Bigger earners don't deserve anything beyond the extra money they make nor does their location equate deserving anything special.

I'm advocating something similar for the College Football Playoff, where one half of the bracket consists of teams from the South as defined by the US Census Bureau playing for one spot in the title game, and teams from the rest of the country playing for the other spot.

The qualifying teams would largely be based on rankings with the stipulation that one spot is reserved for the highest ranked G5 champion.

 

[HisIceness]

I feel that if an American team wants the Cup so badly they should have to go through a Canadian team every single time. That's how Canadian media companies should feel (plus there would be a larger inventory of games between two Canadian teams in the regular season which should make for high ratings in Canada all season long).

This makes no sense, you go through who you are matched up with.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

What are you talking about? That's not a requirement in the football playoff.

We could have an all-Canada pair of conference finals any year if four teams north of the border were simultaneously good enough.

Sorry your team doesn't get special treatment.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Canadian teams are equal to American teams. You get through four opponents, you win a Cup, be they all from Canada or all from places that haven't had snow this century. Bigger earners don't deserve anything beyond the extra money they make nor does their location equate deserving anything special.

And if they were truly equal then the 30-year drought without a Canadian team winning it would not be a thing.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

And if they were truly equal then the 30-year drought without a Canadian team winning it would not be a thing.

The NBA went from 1979 until 2023 without one of the non-California/Texas western teams winning a championship, a geographic grouping of teams that added up accounted for a larger percentage of the NBA than the Canadian teams make up in the NHL. Does anyone care overall aside from fans of individual teams each wanting to win? No, it was just a geographic oddity punctuated by assorted other teams having dominant streaks.

Same for here. Just because teams don't get it done doesn't mean that things aren't equal. Teams don't get a one-thirty second claim to the Cup, they have to go out and earn it, and all teams have the same gauntlet. Geographic oddities and overlapping droughts just happen.

If, say, none of the Midwest teams win again for the next three decades, would that mean that things were unfair to the Hawks, Wild, Blues, Wings, and Jackets? No, **** just happens.

Plus, let's face it, whenever a Canadian team wins a Cup, the talking point is going to immediately morph to a "it's been xx years since an Eastern Canadian team won," or vice versa.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

And if they were truly equal then the 30-year drought without a Canadian team winning it would not be a thing.

It's not the American teams fault your organizations keep hiring dumb and dumber to run your teams

 

[BMN]

(L)et's face it, whenever a Canadian team wins a Cup, the talking point is going to immediately morph to a "it's been xx years since an Eastern Canadian team won," or vice versa.

100%

As I've stated in another thread, it's far more a talking point of Canadian sportswriters and SUPER casual fans than it is actual team fans. The Maple Leafs could have to travail a road of Carolina, Tampa, Florida and Nashville in the playoffs and you'd only catch this Canadian whistling Dixie the whole damn time.....

Part of this is attributed to the fact that hockey is national news in Canada and it simply isn't in the States. So another year without a Canadian team winning is less news for those reporters to...report. It’s therefore it's easy to surmise that most Canadian fans obsess about it, but I don't think that's at all the case.

 

[Dan Kelly]

Just think, in 20 years from now, we could be looking at a handful of new franchises in places like KC, Houston, Salt Lake, Milwaukee, San Diego, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Atlanta again, Omaha is a new one, haven't heard that one before....What an even more awesome league it could become in the next several years !!

 

[rojac]

I feel that if an American team wants the Cup so badly they should have to go through a Canadian team every single time. That's how Canadian media companies should feel (plus there would be a larger inventory of games between two Canadian teams in the regular season which should make for high ratings in Canada all season long).

i find a number of your posts to be out there. This may be the most ridiculous one yet. As a Canadian NHL fan, I don't want some kind of easier route to winning the Stanley Cup. It's insulting. It's saying that Canadian teams aren't good enough and never will be good enough to win a cup competing evenly with the American teams. Who wants that? And who wants to win a cup that over 3/4 of the league and their fanbases are likely to treat as being won unfairly.

The NHL should be looked at as a league of North American based teams. Period.

 

[JKG33]

It sounds to me like you have described Canada Life Centre as it was in 2011.

At that time the building was in no way up to NHL spec, but it had the minimum size. After the NHL returned, millions of dollars were spent renovating and upgrading the building to the point where a little over a decade later it looked like a proper NHL arena.

And if downtown Tulsa is capable of handling thousands of office commuters every day then there will be no issue with hockey crowds. I remember they said the same thing when the arena was built here in Winnipeg, "where will everybody park" etc. but it turned out to be a total non-issue.

There may be other issues with Tulsa but I doubt that the arena is one of them.

Step in to CLC at even just 95% capacity and you'll realize it's still a minor league rink. The smallest capacity permanent rink in the NHL and it still feels like people are crammed in like sardines in a can.

You can polish a turd but it's still a turd. Putting that rink on a way too small piece of land in the middle of the shithole that is downtown winnipeg was one of the dumber things done in this city, which is really saying something.

It doesn't really matter how much TNSE spends on the arena, it'll always be way too small.

A bit OT, but I always laugh when Calgary folk complain about the Saddledome. Sure it might be old and dingy, but at least it's on a massive plot of land, in a prime location, the concourse is huge, parking is plenty, and it's right next to a train station. I'd take that dumpy rink over the "fancy" one in Winnipeg anytime

 

[jetsmooseice]

Step in to CLC at even just 95% capacity and you'll realize it's still a minor league rink. The smallest capacity permanent rink in the NHL and it still feels like people are crammed in like sardines in a can.

When was the last time you were in there? It was cramped in 2011 but since they have renovated it over the years to make the front lobby area part of the ticketed space, and added the lounge deck plus the bars in the SE/SW corners, and more recently converted the old Moxie's space into additional concourse area it feels way less cramped on all levels. They have added a considerable amount of concourse space and it shows. There's nothing wrong with it.