Player Discussion Christian Dvorak Part 2

HabzSauce

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What is he worth currently with no retention? A 2nd?

As vanilla as he is, he is reliable defensively at least. Teams still value that come playoff time.

Trade him by TDL when his value is at his highest. Maybe a 2nd and a prospect I have no clue..but if we wait until summer then his value drops even more imo
 

calder candidate

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What is he worth currently with no retention? A 2nd?

As vanilla as he is, he is reliable defensively at least. Teams still value that come playoff time.

Trade him by TDL when his value is at his highest. Maybe a 2nd and a prospect I have no clue..but if we wait until summer then his value drops even more imo
Considering he is sign for 2 more season I think is value is closer to 2 2nd rd pick… If pick up the offense he might get 1st and 3rd…
 

PeteWorrell

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Aug 31, 2006
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Are you crazy. A 1st? We got fleeced to get that guy. He is good on faceoff, thats it. 0-0-0 in 7 games. Unacceptable.
Arizona has done a lot of fleecing the last few years by selling the idea that their players might be good in a different environment. Happened with Dvorak, Oliver Ekman-Larsson and Conor Garland. I would be weary trading for Jakob Chychrun.
 

Habs Halifax

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I don’t agree.

He does nothing above 3rd liner average, except maybe faceoffs.

Dvorak is an average 3rd liner (at best). The problem is he can look good but a deeper look shows he drives possession against weaker opposition. Has a tough time doing it against tougher opposition.

However, his faceoff skills can’t be maximized because of this, since key situations are played by the toughest of opposition.

He has had many opportunities to translate his offensive game to the NHL but has only been able to hit an occasional hot streak, as he did last year under MSL. But he has played too many NHL games (400ish) and is soon turning 27 already… so the probability he breaks out are slim to none.

Nothing has changed in his game. He will hit a hot streak at some point and end with 38ish points.

If you are going to treat him like a legit top 2C, I guess I know why you don't agree. Fringe 2nd liners and 3rd liners are not as consistent as you think they are or want them to be. Would be nice if he busted out offensively with the Habs and was more consistent but that's not the case so far. However, I would advise not to dwell on it and lower his value even more.... because you found flaws. Middle of the line-up players have flaws. Reality
 

NORiculous

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If you are going to treat him like a legit top 2C, I guess I know why you don't agree. Fringe 2nd liners and 3rd liners are not as consistent as you think they are or want them to be. Would be nice if he busted out offensively with the Habs and was more consistent but that's not the case so far. However, I would advise not to dwell on it and lower his value even more.... because you found flaws. Middle of the line-up players have flaws. Reality
I don’t understand your post. I said he was an average 3rd liner at best… where do you see me saying he is a 2nd liner?

Btw, borderline NHL players also have flaws but saying they all have flaws doesn’t make them better… so what is the point of saying middle of the pack players have flaws?

Expecting or wishing for a Dvorak breakout at this point is like wishing to win the lottery: the probability is very small. Possible? Sure, but highly unlikely. He will eventually hit another hot streak though.

Stating this is not trying to lower his value, it is trying to look at his real value because, to me, some people saw Dvorak with an inflated value because of a hot streak under MSL.

Now that everyone can see that it is not the norm (the MSL hot streak production pace and level of play), the expectations of a return/value should be adjusted. The value has not really changed but the perception of some fans, no longer clouded by the hot streak under MSL, need to be adjusted to reality.
 

Habs Halifax

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I don’t understand your post. I said he was an average 3rd liner at best… where do you see me saying he is a 2nd liner?

Btw, borderline NHL players also have flaws but saying they all have flaws doesn’t make them better… so what is the point of saying middle of the pack players have flaws?

Expecting or wishing for a Dvorak breakout at this point is like wishing to win the lottery: the probability is very small. Possible? Sure, but highly unlikely. He will eventually hit another hot streak though.

Stating this is not trying to lower his value, it is trying to look at his real value because, to me, some people saw Dvorak with an inflated value because of a hot streak under MSL.

Now that everyone can see that it is not the norm (the MSL hot streak production pace and level of play), the expectations of a return/value should be adjusted. The value has not really changed but the perception of some fans, no longer clouded by the hot streak under MSL, need to be adjusted to reality.

Your average 3rd liner at best types are not as consistent as you think. So therefore, you are evaluating 3rd liners to 2nd line standards and then devaluing the player. Understand now?

Dvorak is more than a 3rd liner at best. Fringe 2nd line center if you need him to play there but ideal spot is 3rd line. Nothing wrong with what he is doing for 3rd line standards.
 

calder candidate

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Are you crazy. A 1st? We got fleeced to get that guy. He is good on faceoff, thats it. 0-0-0 in 7 games. Unacceptable.
Dvorak hit a post, Fleury made a save without knowing what he was doing early in the first and got other good chance in early in the second they got 3 good chances that is probably almost half of all our scoring chances. There isn’t much difference in term of value between a late 1st and a 2nd.
 

NORiculous

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Your average 3rd liner at best types are not as consistent as you think. So therefore, you are evaluating 3rd liners to 2nd line standards and then devaluing the player. Understand now?

Dvorak is more than a 3rd liner at best. Fringe 2nd line center if you need him to play there but ideal spot is 3rd line. Nothing wrong with what he is doing for 3rd line standards.
Ok I understand what you are saying now but I completely disagree.

Dvorak has trouble being a 3rd line C on the Habs, who are a bottom of the league team. No way any team in the top 1/2 would be satisfied with him as a 3rd C.
 
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Habs Halifax

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Ok I understand what you are saying now but I completely disagree.

Dvorak has trouble being a 3rd line C on the Habs, who are a bottom of the league team. No way any team in the top 1/2 would be satisfied with him as a 3rd C.

Care to list the top half teams and who their 3C is? Lets quantify it?
 

Boss Man Hughes

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Ok I understand what you are saying now but I completely disagree.

Dvorak has trouble being a 3rd line C on the Habs, who are a bottom of the league team. No way any team in the top 1/2 would be satisfied with him as a 3rd C.
It depends on the supply of centres at the trade deadline and the number of contenders thin at centre. Someone might have to overpay to get centre depth.
 

Tetragrammaton

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What is he worth currently with no retention? A 2nd?

As vanilla as he is, he is reliable defensively at least. Teams still value that come playoff time.

Trade him by TDL when his value is at his highest. Maybe a 2nd and a prospect I have no clue..but if we wait until summer then his value drops even more imo
Epic failure by Bergevin, losing Kotkaniemi for nothing. At least we’ll get the 2nd back that we gave up.. :confused:
 

NORiculous

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Care to list the top half teams and who their 3C is? Lets quantify it?

Not really… but I’ll do it just off the top of my head.
I will list a couple of teams that have 3 C on the roster (that I can think of) that I would take/play over Dvorak.
Thing is… Dvorak has nothing going for him except faceoffs. He needs to play lower then average opposition and still has trouble driving possession. He doesn’t produce and he needs someone to drive the play for him. It is not a winning combination.

You can do the opposite if you like. List teams that don’t have 3 C you would take/play over Dvorak.


Some of my picks, you might not like but I am sure there are other teams with 3 C, that you would take/play over Dvorak, that I did not list. (I will most likely forget some obvious ones…)



On the Habs, I’d take Suzuki, Monahan, Dach, Evans and even Drouin (at C) before Dvorak… making him a 6th line C on a bottom team. haha 😂 ( I’ve had long debates on Dvorak vs. Evans during the summer, so you can check it out if you like. )



I will give some reasons* afterwards for a few maybe less obvious/debatable players. (as to why I prefer them to Dvorak)



I’d say two teams listed below are very debatable picks* I would take/play them before Dvorak. But you can just discard them, if you aren’t sold on them. Sometimes I will list more then 3, so pick your top 3.



Ana. Zegras, Strome, Lundestrom

Buf. Thompson, Cozens, Mittelstadt

Bos. Bergeron, Krejci, Coyle*, Studnicka, Girgenson

Canes. Aho, Kotkaniemi, Necas, Staal

LA. Kopitar, Danault, Byfield* or Vilardi

Wild. Hartman, Ericsson ek, Rossi*, Gaudreau

Nashville. Grandlund, Johansen, Glass

NJ. Hughes, Mercer, Hischier

NYI. Barzal, Nelson, Pageau

NYR. Zibanejad, Trochek, Chytil

OTT. Norris, Stutzle, Pinto

SJ. Hertl, Couture, Bordeleau*

Sea. Beniers, Gourde, Wright*

Blues. Thomas, O’Reilly, Schenn, Barbachev, Kyrou

Van. Miller, Pettersson, Horvat

Vegas. Eichel, Stephenson, Karlsson, Roy

Wsh. Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Strome



Worth mentioning (I’d also take these before Dvorak)

EDM. McDavid, Draisaitl, Nugent-Hopkins*

Flo. Barkov, Bennett, Lundell

Clb. Roslovic, Sillinger, Jenner

Dal. Hintz, Benn, Faksa* or Glendening*



With the Habs, that’s 22 teams that’s have 3C I like better then Dvorak. I am sure I am missing some too.





Here is a list of guys I think you might debate that Dvorak is more useful. I will list why I listed them.



Coyle. He is much better at driving possession then Dvorak against tougher opposition. More reliable, same production.





Byfield. Yes he is still raw and was still being sheltered last year but his potential is trough the roof. His play with Vilardi this year is much more inspiring then what Dvorak has ever done. Most big guys need time (like Dach).



Rossi. Yes he has had a slight setback because of COVID but he is so incredibly talented. I also think F. Gaudreau is basically the same thing as Dvorak, and keeping Rossi is a no brainer IMO. He might need time tough but even so, Dvorak isn’t an upgrade on Gaudreau.



Bordeleau. He isn’t totally NHL ready but it won’t be long. Just too much talent to compare to Dvorak. But ok if you don’t like this pick remove SJ.



Wright. See Bordeleau comment.



Both Faksa and Glendening destroy Dvorak in the toughness of opposition they can face while driving possession better then Dvorak. More reliable then Dvorak.



Lundestrom. Same comment as Faksa and Glendening.



Nugent-Hopkins. I know he recently has mostly played on the wing, but it is not because he doesn’t play the C position well. It is because EDM needs wings that can play with McDavid and/or Draisaitl. With Kane, Hyman and the potential rise of Holloway, Nugent-Hopkins could be slotted back as 3rd C. EDM still needs a winger or two next hat happens though, because Holloway needs time. But still, Nugent-Hopkins is a C I’d take/play any day before Dvorak.





The others should be pretty straightforward.



So out of the 22 I’ve listed, take out 5 - 7 you like the least and you have your top 1/2.

So what is the point of all this?

When I said Dvorak is an average 3rd C at best… out of the 22 teams I listed, I am 95% sure a very very strong majority of people would easily pick 10 teams, leaving Dvorak in the 11-20 (average range) at best, but it could easily be worse for him.

EDIT: not sure why I forgot TB!! Point, Stamkos, Cirelli.
 
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HabzSauce

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Nugent-Hopkins. I know he recently has mostly played on the wing, but it is not because he doesn’t play the C position well. It is because EDM needs wings that can play with McDavid and/or Draisaitl. With Kane, Hyman and the potential rise of Holloway, Nugent-Hopkins could be slotted back as 3rd C. EDM still needs a winger or two next hat happens though, because Holloway needs time. But still, Nugent-Hopkins is a C I’d take/play any day before Dvorak.
Edmonton needs wingers you say?

What if we give them Hoffman and Dvo. We can take Barrie off their hands, maybe add a sweetner and call it a deal?

Put Dvo on 3C so you can stack the top 6. You could even try Dvo on the wing with McDavid as an experiment.

And Hoffman gives you some scoring depth (maybe). He had flashes of life against minny, so maybe a change of scenery to an offensive no defensive team would suit him well.
 

NORiculous

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Edmonton needs wingers you say?

What if we give them Hoffman and Dvo. We can take Barrie off their hands, maybe add a sweetner and call it a deal?

Put Dvo on 3C so you can stack the top 6. You could even try Dvo on the wing with McDavid as an experiment.

And Hoffman gives you some scoring depth (maybe). He had flashes of life against minny, so maybe a change of scenery to an offensive no defensive team would suit him well.
Yeah. EDM doesn’t want Hoffman though… Hoffman vs Barrie was a discussion on the main board.
 

Grand Admiral Thrawn

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Dvorak can indeed smile!
Looks painful AF, but there you have it! Not a unicorn!
FgL2TOTWIAUoHCk.jpeg.jpg
 
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Sorinth

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Worth noting that thanks to his hat trick he now has 21 points in 31 games under MSL which is good for 55.5 points over 82 games. It's not earth shattering numbers but it's pretty decent overall if he can keep it up.
 
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