Prospect Info: CHL, NCAA & European Prospects Thread | Part X

[Eric Sachs]

Why can't you move players down to the AHL who aren't on the clear day roster and who don't require waivers? If Rochester made the playoffs last year, the Sabres couldn't've just sent Eichel down to play there in the AHL playoffs. The logic for this, assuming it's true, seems to be similar to me.

Of course they could have (if he was on the clear day roster).. why are you presuming they couldn't? Again, you're using the lack of an example as evidence, which is confusing. Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it couldn't have, especially in that case since it's only a hypothetical and not an actual scenario the Sabres faced.

The whole clear day is pretty unclear as some articles recently have mentioned that the most recent CBA has done away with that. Either way, I'm pretty sure it only applies to players in the NHL and not players in CHL/NCAA.

 

[Triumph]

Of course they could have (if he was on the clear day roster).. why are you presuming they couldn't? Again, you're using the lack of an example as evidence, which is confusing. Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it couldn't have, especially in that case since it's only a hypothetical and not an actual scenario the Sabres faced.

They would've had to put him on the Clear Day roster, that much is *very* obvious. You cannot just have a guy up the whole year and then send him down at the end of the season. We know this, because Severson was sent down on clear day last year.

The whole clear day is pretty unclear as some articles recently have mentioned that the most recent CBA has done away with that. Either way, I'm pretty sure it only applies to players in the NHL and not players in CHL/NCAA.

I guess the Devils have sent several guys down on Clear Day the last two years for nostalgia's sake. Old time hockey and all that.

I don't think Clear Day governs this, I'm saying the same logic for having something like Clear Day (and other mechanisms that keep players in the NHL like waivers) might apply here as well.

 

[Eric Sachs]

They would've had to put him on the Clear Day roster, that much is *very* obvious. You cannot just have a guy up the whole year and then send him down at the end of the season. We know this, because Severson was sent down on clear day last year.



I guess the Devils have sent several guys down on Clear Day the last two years for nostalgia's sake. Old time hockey and all that.

I don't think Clear Day governs this, I'm saying the same logic for having something like Clear Day (and other mechanisms that keep players in the NHL like waivers) might apply here as well.

So maybe they just didn't plan on sending Eichel down? Maybe because it was his first professional season and there is a massive adjustment from Juniors in terms of season length. Again, just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it couldn't have. I'm unsure why you came to that conclusion.

Clear Day still exists, I never said it didn't. The actual rules are pretty unclear considering no-one has access to the actual written rules outside of those who work in the league.

Again, does it make any sense that if you sign an ELC, you are suddenly restricted to being sent down to the minors even though you are waiver exempt? But if you sign an ATO, there's just no issues whatsoever?

There's no plausible evidence to conclude that someone like Kerfoot wouldn't be eligible for the AHL unless you go on the basis of lack of obvious examples, which isn't evidence by any measure.

 

[Cheddabombs]

the **** are you guys even arguing about anymore? lol

 

[Eric Sachs]

the **** are you guys even arguing about anymore? lol

There's not really any argument. I'm trying to find legitimate reasons why someone like Kerfoot can't be sent down to the minors because I am both curious and hopeful they can for their own development. So far, the only reason that I have seen is because Triumph can't think of any examples. I would love to figure this out, as I'm sure Triumph is too.

As per my understanding of the NHL CBA (which we have access to), I see no reasons why they can't. We have no access to the AHL CBA so there is a good deal of uncertainty. Based on what we know, I can see Zacha being ineligible (on the NHL roster during Clear Day) but cannot imagine Kerfoot is ineligible.

 

[Triumph]

So maybe they just didn't plan on sending Eichel down? Maybe because it was his first professional season and there is a massive adjustment from Juniors in terms of season length. Again, just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it couldn't have. I'm unsure why you came to that conclusion.

Clear Day still exists, I never said it didn't. The actual rules are pretty unclear considering no-one has access to the actual written rules outside of those who work in the league.

I agree that this discussion has gotten tedious, but you have to at least read the posts I'm making and respond to what I'm actually saying. Rochester didn't make the playoffs last year, so it was merely a hypothetical.

Again, does it make any sense that if you sign an ELC, you are suddenly restricted to being sent down to the minors even though you are waiver exempt? But if you sign an ATO, there's just no issues whatsoever?

Yes, it does, for the same reason that you cannot send down a waiver-ineligible player to the minor leagues at the end of the NHL season who wasn't on the roster on Clear Day. This is the point I've been trying to make and admittedly I haven't done a great job, but yes: there it is. A player on an ATO out of college does not have an NHL contract for that year.

There's no plausible evidence to conclude that someone like Kerfoot wouldn't be eligible for the AHL unless you go on the basis of lack of obvious examples, which isn't evidence by any measure.

This is only if he signs an ELC which burns a year, which is not a guarantee.

 

[Eric Sachs]

I agree that this discussion has gotten tedious, but you have to at least read the posts I'm making and respond to what I'm actually saying. Rochester didn't make the playoffs last year, so it was merely a hypothetical.



Yes, it does, for the same reason that you cannot send down a waiver-ineligible player to the minor leagues at the end of the NHL season who wasn't on the roster on Clear Day. This is the point I've been trying to make and admittedly I haven't done a great job, but yes: there it is. A player on an ATO out of college does not have an NHL contract for that year.



This is only if he signs an ELC which burns a year, which is not a guarantee.

I know it is a hypothetical. I said as much in one of my posts. I'm confused as to how you used a hypothetical as negative evidence given there's no way to conclude what would have happened.. regardless, I don't think it warrants further discussion so let's just move onto trying to figure the rest out.

The terminology sucks so just to confirm, what do you mean by "waiver-ineligible"? As in, someone who is exempt from waivers? Because if that is the case, you can send down a waiver-ineligible player to the minor leagues at the end of the NHL season who wasn't on the roster on Clear Day. We did that last year with Zacha, no?

There is clearly something with Clear Day that we just don't know. It definitely seems to treat players who were on the NHL roster at the time of Clear Day different than those who weren't. In fact, I kinda think it just only applies to those on the NHL roster ON Clear Day meaning everyone else (CHL, NCAA) are automatically eligible. If that's the case, so to would Kerfoot.

I mean wouldn't Kerfoot be similar to Zacha's case last year? Not on AHL roster on Clear Day. Joined NHL team to end season (if this scenario happens, of course) and then sent down to the AHL afterwards for some playoff games. The major difference was Zacha had an ELC all along, though. It more obviously mirrors Wood and Santini, who didn't play in the AHL at all, which was surprising to me admittedly. Though I thought I remember seeing that Shero said they had classes to finish up and stuff?

 

[Triumph]

The terminology sucks so just to confirm, what do you mean by "waiver-ineligible"? As in, someone who is exempt from waivers? Because if that is the case, you can send down a waiver-ineligible player to the minor leagues at the end of the NHL season who wasn't on the roster on Clear Day. We did that last year with Zacha, no?

There is clearly something with Clear Day that we just don't know. It definitely seems to treat players who were on the NHL roster at the time of Clear Day different than those who weren't. In fact, I kinda think it just only applies to those on the NHL roster ON Clear Day meaning everyone else (CHL, NCAA) are automatically eligible. If that's the case, so to would Kerfoot.

I mean wouldn't Kerfoot be similar to Zacha's case last year? Not on AHL roster on Clear Day. Joined NHL team to end season (if this scenario happens, of course) and then sent down to the AHL afterwards for some playoff games. The major difference was Zacha had an ELC all along, though. It more obviously mirrors Wood and Santini, who didn't play in the AHL at all, which was surprising to me admittedly. Though I thought I remember seeing that Shero said they had classes to finish up and stuff?

The Devils assigned Zacha to Albany first and then re-called him to the NHL, so that's not analogous. Regarding Wood and Santini, Shero did say they had classes to finish up, but Wood was a freshman who was leaving college well short of completing a degree.

All we have to do is find one example of a drafted college player who burned an ELC year and played in the AHL playoffs. But I can't find it. We'll see if Utica makes it and if Boeser ends up playing down there.

 

[Eric Sachs]

The Devils assigned Zacha to Albany first and then re-called him to the NHL, so that's not analogous. Regarding Wood and Santini, Shero did say they had classes to finish up, but Wood was a freshman who was leaving college well short of completing a degree.

All we have to do is find one example of a drafted college player who burned an ELC year and played in the AHL playoffs. But I can't find it. We'll see if Utica makes it and if Boeser ends up playing down there.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105394

seems to fit the bill

got from this article: https://www.nhl.com/news/prospects-joining-playoff-chase-in-nhl-ahl/c-664496 which also seems to mention that the AHL playoffs are possibilities for other college players as well.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122124 works too?

 

[Eric Sachs]

no, Killorn appears to have been on an ATO.

DeKeyser works though.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/danny-dekeyser1
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122124

His first ELC year was counted as 2012-2013, his last year in the NCAA, so he did burn a year. Played in the NHL regular season and playoffs.. then was sent down to the AHL playoffs when Detroit was eliminated. Was not drafted but I do imagine that would make his playoff eligibility more strict than a drafted player who would be on a team's reserve list. I do not believe there would be any functional difference based on draft status.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

If the NHL actually upholds the Olympics decision, I could see the Devils wanting him to play for whatever Olympic team Canada puts together. Would probably be better experience than CHL if he's not quite NHL-ready.

This is my hope for McLeod as well.

Play preseason + 9 RS games in the NHL, go to the OHL, play in a top 6 role at the WJCs, make the Canadian Olympic team. Then a Memorial Cup/Calder Cup experience would just be the cherry on top of a great developmental year, and he won't have burned any ELC years to top it off.

 

[Triumph]

no, Killorn appears to have been on an ATO.

DeKeyser works though.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/danny-dekeyser1
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=122124

His first ELC year was counted as 2012-2013, his last year in the NCAA, so he did burn a year. Played in the NHL regular season and playoffs.. then was sent down to the AHL playoffs when Detroit was eliminated. Was not drafted but I do imagine that would make his playoff eligibility more strict than a drafted player who would be on a team's reserve list. I do not believe there would be any functional difference based on draft status.

There you go, so it is possible.

 

[Scorcho]

can we get back to talking about how the players played?

 

[Zippy316]

This is my hope for McLeod as well.

Play preseason + 9 RS games in the NHL, go to the OHL, play in a top 6 role at the WJCs, make the Canadian Olympic team. Then a Memorial Cup/Calder Cup experience would just be the cherry on top of a great developmental year, and he won't have burned any ELC years to top it off.

As a person, that would be one hell of a year if that all happened.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

As a person, that would be one hell of a year if that all happened.

No doubt.

 

[VoidCreature]

Joey Anderson has 3 goals and 8 points in 5 playoff games for Minnesota. The only player on the team with more is Alex Iafallo, and he's a senior.

 

[HBK27]

Joey Anderson has 3 goals and 8 points in 5 playoff games for Minnesota. The only player on the team with more is Alex Iafallo, and he's a senior.

Really liking the Anderson pick since the WJC.

Still very early, but so far the Shero team has grabbed Speers, Anderson & Gignac in the 3rd round the past two years. Not too shabby.

I know it's important to hit that home run with a top pick, but these 2-4 rounds picks are huge as well if this team is going to be good anytime soon. Very pleased with last year's draft overall - with 6 picks in rounds 2-4 this year, Shero needs another good draft for this rebuild to really take off.

 

[Eric Sachs]

There you go, so it is possible.

I think Zacha is the more interesting case.

Although I'm sure it is more complex, it seems as if the general rule is:
If a player is on the NHL roster during Clear Day, they must be on the AHL roster before the deadline to qualify for the playoffs.
Otherwise, for players on any other roster (NCAA, CHL, etc.), they are automatically eligible for the AHL playoffs. (For the NHL, they would have to be on the team's reserve list).

Zacha is a bit of an unusual case in that he was not able to be sent down to the AHL but was on the NHL roster. So unless there is another layer that provides him an exception (i.e. the rule just being that CHL drafted players are eligible once their teams are out), it would seem like he is ineligible for the AHL playoffs.

We may or may not find out if Albany makes it and they decide to send Zacha down if possible.

 

[zharkenby]

Should we worry about kerfoot yet? Game fomorrow and no news

 

[Devils731]

Should we worry about kerfoot yet? Game fomorrow and no news

I'll only start to ramp up general concern if he isn't signed after the game against Detroit.

 

[New Jack City]

I'll worry if he hasn't signed tomorrow. If he's not signing now and playing these next two games I really do not see him signing in the summer

 

[Billdo]

I'll worry if he hasn't signed tomorrow. If he's not signing now and playing these next two games I really do not see him signing in the summer

I hope you're wrong about that last part but I can definitely see that being the case.

 

[VoidCreature]

I don't think I've ever seen a Devil as fast as Michael McLeod.

Seeing him storm through the neutral zone reminds me of Kovalchuk.

 

[VoidCreature]

McLeod PP assist.

 

[VoidCreature]

OHL's even worse than the NHL with goalie interference. Stillman bowls over the Mississauga goalie, carrying the puck over with him. Good goal.