Proposal: Car/Tor

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2legit2quit

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Oct 27, 2017
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JvR sign and trade + Carrick + Leafs 2nd 18 + 1st 2019(top 10 protection) + 3rd 2020

Hayden Fleury

We can trade JvR for a 1st + A Good Prospect.

Why would we trade (2) 1st Round Picks, (1) 2nd Round Pick, (1) 3rd Round Pick + A Good Prospect for Hayden Fleury?

The last time the Leafs traded that many picks for a player was Phil Kessel, and that trade turned out horribly!

Fleury is nowhere as proven as Phil Kessel was. What has Fleury even done so far? He might just be a bust for all you know.

isn't Fleury the type of return a rental JVR would get? or am I sleeping on this kid?

LMAO! Fleury was drafted 7th Overall in the 2014 draft --------- If they Draft Was Re-DONE: There is no way Hayden Fleury even goes top 15 LUL...

Fleury for (2) 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a good prospect ----------- NICE JOKE!! :nod:
 

therealkoho

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Jul 10, 2009
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Yeah I'm sure Leaf fans watch the sad sack Carolina Hurricanes team enough to come away with such a conclusion. If Marner is truly on another level, then he's going to be a top 10 player of his generation. Don't hold your breath on that one though.
seeing as i'm retired i watch a lot of hockey especially the East and that includes the Hurricanes

but yeah assumptions are good
 

Chan790

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Do some people still think Aho>MArner??

Think?

Know. They're not as even as the numbers seem.

Aho is a better goal scorer and a very-good defensive forward; Marner collects a lot of assists where his contribution was marginal and is at-best average defensively.

I know which one I want.
 

Deadly Dogma

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Think?

Know. They're not as even as the numbers seem.

Aho is a better goal scorer and a very-good defensive forward; Marner collects a lot of assists where his contribution was marginal and is at-best average defensively.

I know which one I want.
contribution was marginal??!!?? Aho is a good playrer no reason to flat out lie about Marner
 

therealkoho

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isn't Fleury the type of return a rental JVR would get? or am I sleeping on this kid?

he's got a way to go for sure and he's currently buried behind the top 4 in Carolina with no hope of moving up, in Toronto he'll probably play ahead of Polak and move into the #4 spot next year with Zaitsev...I can see them moving Gardiner at the draft

he's just 21 and had decent year in Charlotte as a 20 year old last year, he's a big kid who could be physical if he develops a little more snarl, plays his own end well and isnt prone to glaring mental errors, isn't really an offensive guy in that you're not going to have him on the PP, but the Leafs have a bus load of those guys

One way or another JvR is gone, our upcoming 2nd will be in the 55+ range while the Shark 2nd which we'll retain will be a little higher up possibly 50th, the first is 2019 which if all goes according to plan will be 31st and really how much future does Carrick have with them going forward? Dermott and Borgman imho have already passed him with Rosen, Liljegren or Holl ready to move up as early as next year

We can trade JvR for a 1st + A Good Prospect.

Why would we trade (2) 1st Round Picks, (1) 2nd Round Pick, (1) 3rd Round Pick + A Good Prospect for Hayden Fleury?

The last time the Leafs traded that many picks for a player was Phil Kessel, and that trade turned out horribly!

Fleury is nowhere as proven as Phil Kessel was. What has Fleury even done so far? He might just be a bust for all you know.



LMAO! Fleury was drafted 7th Overall in the 2014 draft --------- If they Draft Was Re-DONE: There is no way Hayden Fleury even goes top 15 LUL...

Fleury for (2) 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a good prospect ----------- NICE JOKE!! :nod:

say what?
 
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Brock Radunske

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Maybe the Leafs can keep their inferior players and continue making the playoffs and the Canes can continue spinning their wheels and talking about how awesome all their players are.
 
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Blueline Bomber

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I love this topic. It lived up to every expectation I had before entering it. Let me check off the list.

- Terrible proposal: Check
- Initial responses reasonably saying "No": Check
- An off-handed comparison between players by someone who's not a fan of either team involved: Check
- Unnecessary over the top reaction to said comparison (for like 3 pages. Seriously impressive): Check
- Fancy stats thrown about that posters put far too much stock into: Check

All that's left is the inevitable lock that comes about once the mods realize the argument that's happening at the time (whatever it may be) has nothing to do with the initial proposal.

I can't wait to see how long it takes to play out.
 

firstemperor

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May 25, 2011
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Marner is more exciting and explosive. I get more of a "Wow" factor watching Mitch and when he's on top of his game and puts it all together, he's dynamic and dangerous. He has the ability to put guys back on their heels more often. He also is better with more space, which is why he's more dangerous on the PP, where there is more time and space.

Aho isn't as dynamic, but like you said, he's looks effortless and is more fluid. He's got a better shot, is a more natural goal scorer, has deceptive speed, and he's stronger than Mitch. Both are good defensively and will only get better.

The people that say one has better vision or hockey sense than the other (which I know isn't directly measurable), just don't watch the two or are way too biased. Aho is one of the most instinctive hockey players I've ever seen. His movement without the puck is uncanny and his vision is incredible. There's a reason people in Finland call him the professor because he sees the ice so well, with or without the puck. Marner, similarly has fantastic vision as well and his ability to see the ice at speed is incredible. Both of them are incredibly smart and have superb vision.

I think Marner probably has more upside offensively if he puts it all together.

Good take, I watch the Canes a fair amount as well (not because they are my 2nd team, but they are one of the East teams I keep an eye out on, with the other Canadian teams + Ducks, as I have the NHL package)

I'd add that both players don't float as much as other "young stars" I refuse to name. They are limited by their system, and coaches to some extent (Peters being a Babcock protege).

Marner is often the short-pass option to exit the zone, Aho in a similar but lesser vein (he back-checks more than his young peers that put up higher totals). Other young stars just leak and float out regularly, with much less defensively responsibility. It's like Kessel and his productivity in the run and gun, Wilson system.

I think if both players were in a more open-ice system, they'd rack up more points, but that wouldn't make them better or more responsible players.....nor is that playstyle sustainable if your trying to win. Though admittedly, I think Marner's had more growing pains this year (line shuffling, being forced to work on his cycle/loose puck battle game, so points aren't a great determinant for how his season has gone, it's very, very much been the definition of a developmental year for him.

Lastly, Aho could have better linemates. And Marner certainly has had better linemates for the last few weeks. But JVR and Bozak at even strength are awful and have limited the productivity of Marner for at least a year and half now. I'm not complaining (hopefully that brings down Marner's hit + term), but it needs to be said. It goes beyond "precedent", JVR and Bozak are declining players in the evolving league, that is predicated heavily on
A) play with speed through the neutral zone
B) older school teams that have "heavy" players that impose their will on the cycle

JVR, and Bozak are poor at A) and B) and quite one-dimensional. Needless to say, Marner would work better with a heavier player that could finish well (he can account for A) as well as most players in the league).
 
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MinJaBen

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JvR sign and trade + Carrick + Leafs 2nd 18 + 1st 2019(top 10 protection)

Hayden Fleury
This is a ridiculous over payment for Fleury. As a Canes fan, I’d gladly take it, but it is way too much.

Edit: I suppose it could be fine if the contract for JVR was so bad it was a cap dump...
 
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BlueBaron

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May 29, 2006
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Do some people still think Aho>MArner??
Some people think he is on the Matthews/Eichel level. If that is just a couple Finns, or Canes fans I cannot say but he is a good player. I doubt either team trades their guy.

The JVR and a 3rd for Faulk is funny but I doubt they go for that either.
 

Halla

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Jan 28, 2016
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even though faulk is more valuable than an expiring JVR and a 3rd, Marner is not getting moved for a lesser winger so no.
 

Cardiac Jerks

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Some people think he is on the Matthews/Eichel level. If that is just a couple Finns, or Canes fans I cannot say but he is a good player. I doubt either team trades their guy.

The JVR and a 3rd for Faulk is funny but I doubt they go for that either.

I feel confident enough to say no canes fan on hf has ever said Aho is on the level of Matthews/Eichel. Marner definitely yes but we all realize he’s a step below those two.
 
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Halla

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I'm guessing you don't realize that Aho currently has more points then Marner in 4 less GP? Including 8 more Goals? On a team where he is the singular offensive threat?

1) 1 more point. as in singular, not plural
2) 4 less gp, yet 3 mins more per night actually gives him 987mins (161pp) Marner is at 930 mins (133pp)

so yeah, 1 extra point in 57 extra mins of ice time (28 of which are PP). I guess we should just ignore Marners 61pts in 77 games vs Ahos 49pts in 82 games right? lets also ignore marners 106 career pts in 136 games vs Ahos 95 career pts in 137 games because (insert auston matthews excuse here)

Do some people still think Aho>MArner??

Player A: 90pts in 137 games (plays 18mins a night/3mins pp)

Player B: 106pts in 136 games (plays under 16 mins a night/ 2 mins pp)

take away the names and its player B (Marner) quite easily.

Aho > Marner
Faulk >>>> JVR + 3rd

Why would the Canes make this deal?

Faulk is awful in his own end and is barely evening putting up offense this year.
JVR probably could return a 1st and 2nd at the deadline...so essentially you are saying Faulk >>>> 1,2,3? ha yeah right.
also marner>>aho. 16pts more career in less games getting 2-3 mins a night less icetime. its not close really

i'll make a list for you:
Aho is outproducing Marner
He is way better at scoring goals
He is way better defensively
He has potential as a center
He is THE guy on carolina while marner gets to play behind matthews

So yes i would say he is clearly the better player

your list is a joke. 1 pt more in 28 extra mins pp time, 57 total ice time isnt "outproducing" someone
potential at C...i guess you forgot marner is a natural c huh
"the guy" this is honestly the dumbest argument ive ever heard. so lemme guess aho>malkin right because aho is "the guy" and malkin plays behind crosby? FACEPALM
 
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Jerkob Slavin

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Mar 8, 2012
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Point is: I provided stats displaying, CLEARLY, Marner's prowess over Aho. Yet, there are still Canes' fans BLINDLY saying Aho > Marner.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

- Mark Twain

Leaf fans are correct. Marner is light years better than our Aho. You guys should ask the Islanders about their Aho instead. We’ll just continue to trudge along with our 2nd round bust...

Maybe the Leafs can keep their inferior players and continue making the playoffs and the Canes can continue spinning their wheels and talking about how awesome all their players are.

Are you insinuating that the reason we’re in a playoff drought is because we don’t make horrible trades like the one in the OP? Leaf fans are a great bunch, but we’re not going to make moves that weaken our future (JVR?) just so you guys can finally reclaim the Cup.

Our problem WAS a cheapskate owner that wouldn’t spend and a GM that regularly mortgaged the future (Rutherford). Both are gone now. Currently, we are a cap floor team on the playoff bubble. We are showing year over year improvement. With cap money to spend (and a new billionaire owner willing to do so), it’s going to be an exciting offseason.

It’s going to be awesome when we finally right this ship, especially considering we didn’t have to tank for a generational talent to make it happen.
 
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LeafFever

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Feb 12, 2016
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Why can Aho be called better than Marner repeatedly on HF when Aho has never had a better season at any level than Marner? At some points kids, stats matter.
 
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