Post-Game Talk: Caps Isles 700

[txpd]

I don't hate the guy, I hate his contract. When he's playing well (and the numbers don't lie, he's playing well) he deserves a promotion. .

you don't hate the player. you don't like the skill set. you feel the same about alzner as you do orpik. the difference is orpik has the contract and alzner is approaching it.

Orlov has let you down. I know that you expected a lot more. You expected his numbers to go up not down. I also believe that playing with Orlov would not have downward pressure on Carlson's offense. Meaning some really strong blue line production.

I agree that it is approaching time to address the situation on defense. I don't think making Niskanen the stay at home dman is the way to go. He relies on Alzner's strength and positioning to play his game. Put a skater/puck mover with him and you are asking him to play a game he has never played in his career. Much like what has happened putting Carlson with Orlov.

Orlov and Schmidt can work as a 3rd pair because they can be kept away from top offensive lines and Schmidt can play stay at home. He did that last season with Orlov. He is just not strong like Orpik or Alzner or even Chorney.

food for thought

 

[hockeyfan88]

The only problem is the lack of a legit number 1 defenseman. Can they play a true offensive game without great puck moving defensemen?

We have Alzner, Niskanen and Orpik as defensive guys. Orlov is prone to mistakes and Carlson is really slow to react these days, so I fear the days of playing in transition at high speeds may be already gone.

Another problem is the age factor. Ovie and Backstrom are not the same players anymore.

I think they need a coach or maybe an assistant who knows how to implement an offense based on crisper passing and creativity. More like Chicago/Detroit of old than the Stars of last year.

Let's be real here: the Caps are running out of options. If they can't play a different style, this roster should be blown out as soon as possible. We are not winning a Cup with this roster playing a grinding game. Not a chance.

Ward, Chimera, Brouwer, Laich are all gone. We also had Beagle and Wilson the freight train destroying everything in front of him. Those guys were perfect for Trotz hockey.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

The only problem is the lack of a legit number 1 defenseman. Can they play a true offensive game without great puck moving defensemen?

We have Alzner, Niskanen and Orpik as defensive guys. Orlov is prone to mistakes and Carlson is really slow to react these days, so I fear the days of playing in transition at high speeds may be already gone.

Another problem is the age factor. Ovie and Backstrom are not the same players anymore.

I think they need a coach or maybe an assistant who knows how to implement an offense based on crisper passing and creativity. More like Chicago/Detroit of old than the Stars of last year.

Let's be real here: the Caps are running out of options. If they can't play a different style, this roster should be blown out as soon as possible. We are not winning a Cup with this roster playing a grinding game. Not a chance.

Ward, Chimera, Brouwer, Laich are all gone. We also had Beagle and Wilson the freight train destroying everything in front of him. Those guys were perfect for Trotz hockey.

Whatever happens this year, we'll have to rebuild on the fly because of the cap. We're going straight to cap hell this summer. Ovechkin and Backstrom will both be in their 30s next year, and it's becoming obvious that they just can't carry the team around like they used to. We should try to do what the Sharks did, they were able to re-emerge as contenders after a rebuilding phase. Despite Thornton, Marleau and Pavelski's age, they're able to be contenders with a top D (Burns), a top defensive D (Vlasic) and great supporting forwards (Couture and Hertl).

 

[twabby]

you don't hate the player. you don't like the skill set. you feel the same about alzner as you do orpik. the difference is orpik has the contract and alzner is approaching it.

It's more about lack of skillset than anything. Having the ability to transition is huge in today's NHL and I just can't get behind giving Alzner an Orpik-type contract without this ability. He's very much a one-zone player which is fine, if he's paid like one (~$4M similar to Tanev or Hjalmarsson).

Orlov has let you down. I know that you expected a lot more. You expected his numbers to go up not down. I also believe that playing with Orlov would not have downward pressure on Carlson's offense. Meaning some really strong blue line production.

You have this weird tone to your posts: txpd the hypnotist, soothsayer, therapist?

Aside from last night Orlov has been mostly fine especially given his increased ice time and lack of sheltering. I agree that 9-74 probably isn't the best pairing and maybe it's hurting them both.

I agree that it is approaching time to address the situation on defense. I don't think making Niskanen the stay at home dman is the way to go. He relies on Alzner's strength and positioning to play his game. Put a skater/puck mover with him and you are asking him to play a game he has never played in his career. Much like what has happened putting Carlson with Orlov.

Orlov and Schmidt can work as a 3rd pair because they can be kept away from top offensive lines and Schmidt can play stay at home. He did that last season with Orlov. He is just not strong like Orpik or Alzner or even Chorney.

food for thought

Niskanen isn't the greatest in transition (open ice, specifically), his primary strength is defense IMO. He prevents goals against and has a really smart first pass from the boards. Orlov seems to struggle with this first pass (see: last night's second goal against), he is much better at zone-entries and skating with the puck in open ice (see: his goal against LA last year and his assist to Kuzy against the Blues last week).

Niskanen has evolved into a very strong defensive player and I think it makes sense to pair him with someone who can carry the puck better than he can. Niskanen's never going to be the guy to go end to end (unless the seas part like his goal against the Flyers last regular season) so I don't really see this hurting him individually.

Meanwhile, Alzner would probably be an excellent match for Carlson given their skillsets. Carlson is stronger in transition than Niskanen, but weaker defensively. So why not pair him with a guy who is weak in transition but strong defensively?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

The only problem is the lack of a legit number 1 defenseman. Can they play a true offensive game without great puck moving defensemen?

We have Alzner, Niskanen and Orpik as defensive guys. Orlov is prone to mistakes and Carlson is really slow to react these days, so I fear the days of playing in transition at high speeds may be already gone.

Another problem is the age factor. Ovie and Backstrom are not the same players anymore.

I think they need a coach or maybe an assistant who knows how to implement an offense based on crisper passing and creativity. More like Chicago/Detroit of old than the Stars of last year.

Let's be real here: the Caps are running out of options. If they can't play a different style, this roster should be blown out as soon as possible. We are not winning a Cup with this roster playing a grinding game. Not a chance.

Ward, Chimera, Brouwer, Laich are all gone. We also had Beagle and Wilson the freight train destroying everything in front of him. Those guys were perfect for Trotz hockey.

I appreciate the "fans" view, but Leonsis is running a business that he wants profitable. They're not blowing up the roster because they're unlikely to win a Cup. They're not going to burn it down and go back to a team that misses the playoffs, they're just not. They're going to keep tinkering to make the playoffs each year until the current roster can no longer support being a playoff team.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If you have bad goaltending then firewagon hockey won't get you far in the playoffs, see the 2009 Capitals and last season's version of the Stars.

However, last season's Penguins could also be considered a very uptempo/firewagon team with clear defensive deficiencies but they had a goaltender who could stop pucks in Matt Murray. It can work, especially with Holtby in net who has always been great in the postseason.

So....I'm hearing "Holtby has to be our Grant Fuhr and we can just open it up and play D when it's convenient as long as we can outscore the opponent"....

I'll say this, I'd love a more entertaining up tempo team, but the days of 8 waiting at the opposing blueline for a stretch pass while everyone else is playing D in their own end are gone IMO.

Last years Champs should be considered as nothing more than a team that caught fire at the right time, not some model to chase. Firing a coach and hoping to catch fire is not a strategy it's a Disaster Recovery plan.

 

[hockeyfan88]

I appreciate the "fans" view, but Leonsis is running a business that he wants profitable. They're not blowing up the roster because they're unlikely to win a Cup. They're not going to burn it down and go back to a team that misses the playoffs, they're just not. They're going to keep tinkering to make the playoffs each year until the current roster can no longer support being a playoff team.

I fully agree with you here CCF. And that's why I hate Leonsis.

He's not interested in winning anything as long as he keeps "rocking the red" and "giving back to the community".

Joke of an owner.

 

[ovikovy817]

Sometimes I don't understand, but maybe that's why Trotz is a coach, and I'm just a fan.

27-2 played like 200+ games together, I think if you break them for an experiment of 5-10-15 games, it won't take their chemistry away, when you reunited them.

 

[txpd]

Niskanen isn't the greatest in transition (open ice, specifically), his primary strength is defense IMO. He prevents goals against and has a really smart first pass from the boards. Orlov seems to struggle with this first pass (see: last night's second goal against), he is much better at zone-entries and skating with the puck in open ice (see: his goal against LA last year and his assist to Kuzy against the Blues last week).

Niskanen has evolved into a very strong defensive player and I think it makes sense to pair him with someone who can carry the puck better than he can. Niskanen's never going to be the guy to go end to end (unless the seas part like his goal against the Flyers last regular season) so I don't really see this hurting him individually.

Meanwhile, Alzner would probably be an excellent match for Carlson given their skillsets. Carlson is stronger in transition than Niskanen, but weaker defensively. So why not pair him with a guy who is weak in transition but strong defensively?

Carlson was a very strong defensive player. His game is designed to be played with a stay at home defenseman. The disconnect here is that you don't see a defensively strong puck mover as anything different than a defense first stay at home.

Carlson cant be Carlson playing with Orlov. Is game is based on playing with Alzner or Orpik. Niskanen, like wise is a puck mover. Yes, his offensive skills may be less than what Carlson or Orlov bring and his defending game better. That doesn't change that he is a puck mover. If you pair him with Orlov and ask him to play the Alzner role, you will get a player that is out of position.

 

[Bladerunner]

Honestly, at least it was fun to watch and other teams had a legit fear of Washington's playstyle.

This current system is garbage. They don't score, they don't hit, they don't even fight anymore. Ovechkin looks like a zombie out there. The team has no energy whatsoever.

Ding ding ding...

And as others have pointed out we have a better goalie now.
Went last night, that game gave me flashbacks of Habs series loss, and not limited to who was in goal

 

[twabby]

Carlson was a very strong defensive player. His game is designed to be played with a stay at home defenseman. The disconnect here is that you don't see a defensively strong puck mover as anything different than a defense first stay at home.

Carlson cant be Carlson playing with Orlov. Is game is based on playing with Alzner or Orpik. Niskanen, like wise is a puck mover. Yes, his offensive skills may be less than what Carlson or Orlov bring and his defending game better. That doesn't change that he is a puck mover. If you pair him with Orlov and ask him to play the Alzner role, you will get a player that is out of position.

The bolded is an incredibly gross oversimplification. You seem to think there are two slots on each-pairing: puck-mover and stay-at-home. Why can't there be shades of gray?

 

[Bladerunner]

So....I'm hearing "Holtby has to be our Grant Fuhr and we can just open it up and play D when it's convenient as long as we can outscore the opponent"....
...

Last years Champs should be considered as nothing more than a team that caught fire at the right time, not some model to chase. Firing a coach and hoping to catch fire is not a strategy it's a Disaster Recovery plan.

Seems to work for Pitt... twice

Not that I'm advocating canning Trotz at this point.

 

[txpd]

I fully agree with you here CCF. And that's why I hate Leonsis.

He's not interested in winning anything as long as he keeps "rocking the red" and "giving back to the community".

Joke of an owner.

He's not interested is clearly overstating at best what he said.

This team had the best record in the league last season and we are 20 games into the next season. Why would he want to blow it up?

 

[txpd]

The bolded is an incredibly gross oversimplification. You seem to think there are two slots on each-pairing: puck-mover and stay-at-home. Why can't there be shades of gray?

Sure. There are shades of grey. Orlov is offensively gifted while not very strong defending and mistake prone. That's black. Alzner plays defense very well and doesn't try to play offense very much. That's white.

Carlson is grey and Niskanen lighter grey. It doesn't change the fact that these players have been playing a certain way in their careers. Niskanen's job and Alzner's job are different. They do different things and have different responsibilies. Niskanen's instincts are different than Alzner's.

 

[Hivemind]

I love how txpd insists that all pairings must be a "stay at home" guy and a puck mover, and completely ignores that Carlson broke into the league with a puck mover as his partner (Tom Poti) and spent a significant chunk of last year on a successful pairing with another puck mover (Nate Schmidt). Just because a particular pairing doesn't find chemistry with each other doesn't mean that Carlson has to play with only one style of player. Even more so if it occurs during a span in which Carlson is struggling mightily (even when away from Orlov). This is doubly true when considering

That type of rubric-like logic for defensive pairings is decades outdated, and has been proven wrong repeatedly by successful pairings and cup winning teams. Duncan Keith has won Cups playing next to another puck mover in Brent Seabrook and has spent much of this season playing with Brian Campbell. Offensive dynamo John Klingberg was thriving last year when paired with another puck mover, Alex Goligoski, but has struggled with a more conservative Dan Hamhuis as a partner this season. There are numerous other examples (Hedman/Stralman, OEL/Murphy, Suter/Spurgeon, Letang/Dumoulin, Doughty/Forbort, etc).

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Seems to work for Pitt... twice

Not that I'm advocating canning Trotz at this point.

If you can find their lucky horseshoe, sign me up!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I fully agree with you here CCF. And that's why I hate Leonsis.

He's not interested in winning anything as long as he keeps "rocking the red" and "giving back to the community".

Joke of an owner.

I think that's pretty unfair honestly, but I get the angst from a pure sports fan perspective. He's invested heavily in the team and lost a lot of $ over the years. He should be allowed to run the team like the multi-million $ organization it is. He has a responsibility to his partners AND the community. One of their first organizational goals was to build a long-term contender (playoff team) and blowing things up seems like overkill.

 

[Hivemind]

It doesn't have to be "firewagon" vs "full on defense." The point is that there are many systems that play with more tempo than what Trotz is employing, and those systems would likely produce better results with the glut of offensive talent on this roster than forcing them to play a grinding brand of hockey.

Similarly, while firing a coach is never a good thing (as it indicates something is already wrong with your hockey team), it doesn't mean it's the wrong move, either. Sticking to a plan that's not working is often an even worse move than taking a risk on a new coach. And the upside is obvious, given that Pittsburgh has won 2 Cups after coaching changes, Laviolette led the Flyers to game 6 of the SCF after he took over in-season, and Boudreau has staged multiple in-season turnarounds (including the one he won a Jack Adams for in Washington). Not every coaching change guarantees success, but the current administration isn't showing signs that they can correct the issues plaguing the team, a change may be necessary.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

There's nothing to indicate a system change or a coaching change is "likely to produce better results" (in the postseason). Wild speculation. Short term in-season bump, sure, that's common in hockey, but doesn't always work.

Maybe it's the players too? Maybe a change is needed there as well? I'm not some huge fan of Trotz's system, but the tunnel vision on him and lack of accountability for a LOT of players is absurd.

And even though TXPD's old school Puck mover vs Stay at home D mentality is a little outdated, he's right to some extent. Each guy on the pair has a role. One guy can't be free to roam offensively without a capable steady defensive partner he KNOWS is going to cover for him. Not every team has the luxury of pairing a Keith and a Seabrook. Gee go figure, the 3 time champs have a deep roster. Most team's in the league can't do that top to bottom, so you fall back into those roles to some extent. And if it doesn't happen in the 1st pair because you're deep, it often does in the 2nd and 3rd on many teams.

 

[Hivemind]

When the issues they are struggling with now are the issues they've struggled with in previous post-seasons, there's considerable evidence to suggest that the current approach will not succeed in the post-season. I'll take an unknown approach with unknown outcome over a known approach with known poor outcomes.

This isn't like when Holmgren canned Laviolette 4 games into a season. Heck, very few are arguing Trotz should be fired today. Rather, most are arguing his time should be running out. GMBM spent all off-season talking about how the Capitals needed to play faster, and so far this year, Trotz has implemented a system that's had the exact opposite effect.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

There's evidence to suggest Trotz can coach this team to the playoffs. There's zero evidence to suggest another coach could do better in the postseason with this roster.

 

[Hivemind]

Read my previous post again and maybe you'll grasp it.

 

[Eskobar]

I'd like to see these lines when everyone is healthy:

8-92-77
90-19-65
13-83-14
28-20-43

27-74
9-2
44-88

70
31

Beagle could be the one who gets Williams going. The guy has a tendency to score those greasy goals and maybe that way 14 could get some assists or score from a rebound. Also, Vrana's solid skill could bring something to the line.

The defensive lines should be shuffled too.

 

[g00n]

There's evidence to suggest Trotz can coach this team to the playoffs. There's zero evidence to suggest another coach could do better in the postseason with this roster.

This is the case with every coaching change. I don't think that particular fear is enough to rule out making a move. It's the same "maybe the next guy will be worse" thing some said for years under GMGM.

If we're going with evidence instead of thinking our way through things, then what evidence is there that Trotz can win a Cup with any roster? If anything there's a lot of evidence that he can't get out of the 2nd round, and is coaching a franchise with pretty much the same problem.

But again, it's about more than just certainty vs uncertainty. I think we all know that. It's just time for us to smash our fists into our keyboards because it's better than doing nothing and being bored like the first month of the season.

 

[Devil Dancer]

This isn't like when Holmgren canned Laviolette 4 games into a season. Heck, very few are arguing Trotz should be fired today. Rather, most are arguing his time should be running out. GMBM spent all off-season talking about how the Capitals needed to play faster, and so far this year, Trotz has implemented a system that's had the exact opposite effect.

And when you factor in that GMBM didn't hire Trotz, it's easy to see how a power struggle could emerge with this team, if it hasn't already. Could GMBM talk Ted into firing Trotz? I don't know, but the Panthers just went through the same thing and their management pulled the trigger.

I get the feeling the Caps organization really doesn't like paying managers or players to not work. Anyone know how long Trotz's contract is? I thought I remembered seeing 5 years (this would be year 3) but I'm not sure about that.