Post-Game Talk: Caps Isles 700

[AlexBrovechkin8]

My biggest issue with the team, as trick9 pointed out, is there is a lack of cohesion between the coaching staff and the roster. There is no synergy. Either use the offensive talent on the roster and play fire wagon hockey and win games 6-4 or trade some of your younger skill players and play Trotz hockey.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Tank for Nolan Patrick

 

[txpd]

You realize that Ovechkin is one of the few constants over the past 10 years of repeated failure, right? It's just him, Backstrom, Alzner and Carlson left from 2010, and Alzner and Carlson only played about 40 games between them that year.

It seems odd that you would call out the players for repeated failures but then absolve Ovie by saying if he's smart he'll leave at the first opportunity, implying he's not part of the problem. Right now he absolutely is part of the problem.

We've had lenthy break up the core conversation here in the past. Most don't mean trade Ov when they say that. They might go for Backstrom, but that was when Kuzy was out scoring him.

The only way you make a big dent in this core is to either trade Ov or bring in a bigger name player than him to knock him down a peg on the ladder, which is impossible.

They can trade Mojo, but am not sure how much that does. We could trade Carlson or Holtby, but how does the team get better with that?

 

[g00n]

My biggest issue with the team, as trick9 pointed out, if there is a lack of cohesion between the coaching staff and the roster. There is no synergy. Either use the offensive talent on the roster and play fire wagon hockey and win games 6-4 or trade some of your younger skill players and play Trotz hockey.

Been talking about that at least since last winter when it was clear the "heavy game" from the previous season was gone. There are just so many mismatches in style, message and personnel.

Having an identity at least put them within a minute of going to the ECF.

 

[Langway]

My biggest issue with the team, as trick9 pointed out, if there is a lack of cohesion between the coaching staff and the roster. There is no synergy. Either use the offensive talent on the roster and play fire wagon hockey and win games 6-4 or trade some of your younger skill players and play Trotz hockey.

It is indeed a looming showdown...made all the more awkward by adding Vrana to the mix.

I could see a scenario where Carlson is traded and they get better but it's tricky and no sure thing. They'd likely get a younger more inconsistent defender back and hope they take off under Reirden. And it'd probably have to be a righty for PP reasons. Speaking of which, once Bowey is healthy they may need to see whether he can salvage the PP or not. Niskanen is not doing it.

Ovechkin isn't going anywhere unless he demands it so it's kind of a pointless thought exercise anyway. The players to deal IMO are Burakovsky and Wilson. It cuts right down to matters of urgency and promise needing to be delivered. I don't expect anything to happen any time soon but those would be my prime candidates if the same dynamics remain. It would have to be the right deal and not just a message-sender but if they could package Winnik for cap reasons with those two and get two high IQ forwards I'd really think about it. Wilson's upside seems less and less pronounced and Burakovsky's never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. I don't think they'd get two great forwards for those two but perhaps two lower maintenance types that don't require the sort of development that Trotz can't seem to get out of those two. I don't doubt another team managing to do so and reaping the rewards, or at least playing them to their existing strengths to a much greater extent.

 

[ovikovy817]

I'm not on the "fire Trotz" bandwagon, but which names are available?
And what about another assistant coach for the Offense and who?

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Been talking about that at least since last winter when it was clear the "heavy game" from the previous season was gone. There are just so many mismatches in style, message and personnel.

Having an identity at least put them within a minute of going to the ECF.

Yes we have. Because they won won the President's Trophy the lack of cohesion was swept under the rug, to an extent. Ted, GMBM, Trotz, and many of us assumed that players would get back to the form of fall 2015, and if you coupled that return to form with another year in "the system" and some smart additions to the bottom 6, this team would be pretty stacked. Now we're at a point where guys haven't returned to form or taken the next step, the additions to the team haven't worked out as planned, and the whole thing kind of looks like a house of cards.

As Langway noted, there is a looming showdown. None of the young forwards have progressed under Trotz so I think it's somewhat naive to expect Vrana to come in and develop properly and help the team. The only forwards who are really excelling under Trotz (Backstrom, Oshie, Beagle, Johansson) were defensively responsible before he got to town. It's becoming more and more evident that push is going to come to shove and something will need to change. Or not, and we just lose in the spring again, and then push the reset button.

 

[twabby]

I'm not on the "fire Trotz" bandwagon, but which names are available?
And what about another assistant coach for the Offense and who?

The most obvious choice right now is Gerard Gallant who was just fired from Florida. Not sure he is the best choice though.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I don't think we see any major roster changes in season. With the expansion draft looming it makes it almost impossible to add a long term fix.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

No, not really. Just under Oates and Barry actually. A defensive defensive pylon would never attain plus fiddy status on a team living off the PP like we do now. Hunter didn't win games via the PP, he did it by smothering defense. The PP has really only dominated to this degree, and been such a large part of scoring since Blaine implemented his design.

Our ES attack has slowly fizzled away. The sad thing is, Barry's ES funnel offense was very good last fall and early winter.

I see you are interested in knowing if BMac would can Barry or a player first. A discussion with you about Barry seemed a non starter just last week. Did you really flip flop after a simple Halaking?

And Bruce...come on. I didn't say I would fire Trotz today, I wondered what GMBM would do if they really faltered, like REALLY started to flounder, not the silly handwringing that's going on around here.

 

[twabby]

I'm still really questioning why the defensive pairings haven't been changed once this season, aside from swapping Schmidt and Chorney in and out of the lineup.

-Orpik deserves a promotion
-Carlson needs a kickstart
-The transition game needs to be better in general

27-2
44-74
9-88

Or

27-74
44-2
9-88

Or

44-74
9-2
27-88

Or

27-74
9-2
44-88

The transition game is floundering and there's been no attempt on the backend to make it better. It's been 22 games with the same pairings, time to try something different.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

twabby, proud of you. I am sure typing, "Orpik needs a promotion" was not easy for you. Tip of the cap.

 

[RandyHolt]

And Bruce...come on. I didn't say I would fire Trotz today, I wondered what GMBM would do if they really faltered, like REALLY started to flounder, not the silly handwringing that's going on around here.

10-4 Good post. I know our PP was good under Bruce, but IIRC not uncontested #1. How it did work under Bruce, also worked at ES. Laich in front setting screens.... blood sweat and tears. Now, its a perimeter attack, not unlike our ES offense.

I guess the level of faltering / floundering seen is based on ones perspective. I have seen signs of it for 10 months. Hey, we are 5-5 in our last 10, be happy. Others may not see it without a big ole 10 game losing streak, where it's fully evident the team has quit on the coach. In the end, it may come down to expectations.

I grade coaches heavily on their playoff performance, for that is when checkers becomes chess. My position won't flounder because a goalie stole a game from us.

The hand wringers are offset by team #RemainCalmAllIsWell

 

[twabby]

twabby, proud of you. I am sure typing, "Orpik needs a promotion" was not easy for you. Tip of the cap.

I don't hate the guy, I hate his contract. When he's playing well (and the numbers don't lie, he's playing well) he deserves a promotion. The same goes for everyone on the roster. In particular he seems to be making quicker plays with the puck in his own end. He'll never be confused for Erik Karlsson in transition but he and Schmidt are doing their jobs in transition moreso than any other pairing IMO.

I guess I just want change more than anything. Niskanen and Alzner have been a pairing for over two years straight now with mixed results as a top pairing, give them different partners. Let Alzner babysit a riskier player like Carlson or Schmidt. Give Niskanen a better partner in transition (Orpik, Schmidt, or Orlov) since Niskanen is very good defensively already. It bothers me that only the forward lines are shuffled as an attempt to get some offense going. It's almost as if Trotz doesn't realize that maybe the defenseman aren't doing their jobs on the offensive side.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

My biggest issue with the team, as trick9 pointed out, is there is a lack of cohesion between the coaching staff and the roster. There is no synergy. Either use the offensive talent on the roster and play fire wagon hockey and win games 6-4 or trade some of your younger skill players and play Trotz hockey.

Are you saying players can't play different types of systems?

If this is the case, then that's on GMBM.


I'm a little surprised at the calls for the return to fire wagon hockey. We've already seen that fail right?

 

[twabby]

Are you saying players can't play different types of systems?

If this is the case, then that's on GMBM.


I'm a little surprised at the calls for the return to fire wagon hockey. We've already seen that fail right?

Washington's goaltending and defensemen were much worse from 2008-2010 than they are now. Firewagon hockey is far more preferable to whatever is going on now, at least there was some purpose and an identity.

 

[hockeyfan88]

Are you saying players can't play different types of systems?

If this is the case, then that's on GMBM.


I'm a little surprised at the calls for the return to fire wagon hockey. We've already seen that fail right?

Honestly, at least it was fun to watch and other teams had a legit fear of Washington's playstyle.

This current system is garbage. They don't score, they don't hit, they don't even fight anymore. Ovechkin looks like a zombie out there. The team has no energy whatsoever.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Washington's goaltending and defensemen were much worse from 2008-2010 than they are now. Firewagon hockey is far more preferable to whatever is going on now, at least there was some purpose and an identity.

Define preferable. More fun to watch, still lose in the 2nd round?

That's not preferable if you're trying to win a Championship.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Honestly, at least it was fun to watch and other teams had a legit fear of Washington's playstyle.

This current system is garbage. They don't score, they don't hit, they don't even fight anymore. Ovechkin looks like a zombie out there. The team has no energy whatsoever.

They had a fear of them in the regular season. Many times we heard players around the league scoff at the Caps because they don't "play the right way" and that assertion was validated by playoff failures, or at least that's what we were led to believe.

I miss the Caps run and gun too, but if it's not helping us progress towards the Cup, what's the point in going back to that system? Surely there has to be a middle ground?

 

[Langway]

Are you saying players can't play different types of systems?

If this is the case, then that's on GMBM.

I'm a little surprised at the calls for the return to fire wagon hockey. We've already seen that fail right?

Conversely, we've already seen what a meagre offensive approach does come playoff time. They need balance. For me there's little risk in opening it up some in order to get 92 and 65 going. I think there's probably some limitations on the back-end in truly being able to play that way from a transition standpoint but it still beats passive hockey. Are they limited in playing that way? Or is it philosophical? They have Holtby...they have at least decent mobility. If nothing else it would push their conditioning and engagement level. Some sort of challenge toward their skill players on a tactical level is needed. Just simply telling them to battle through it isn't working. On another level taking away systematic crutches is not the worst idea, especially since they seem to have the opinion that self-induced adversity is worthwhile.

There is a philosophical clash between the types of players Mahoney picks in the draft in the first round historically--predominantly finesse European forwards when picking them--and the sorts of players Trotz endears. Trotz loves players like Jay Beagle and Ryan O'Reilly whose compete level and low maintenance play are their top trait. The Caps don't really draft those types of forwards...quite to the contrary. If Trotz can't coexist with any of them in the long-term then it's unrealistic to trade all of them to cater to him. That choice will need to be made at some point here, though, if these players continue to stagnate. Just teaching battle level and defense is not well-rounded development.

 

[txpd]

I'm still really questioning why the defensive pairings haven't been changed once this season, aside from swapping Schmidt and Chorney in and out of the lineup.

-Orpik deserves a promotion
-Carlson needs a kickstart
-The transition game needs to be better in general

27-2
44-74
9-88

Or

27-74
44-2
9-88

Or

44-74
9-2
27-88

Or

27-74
9-2
44-88

The transition game is floundering and there's been no attempt on the backend to make it better. It's been 22 games with the same pairings, time to try something different.

I think that Orlov and agent and MacLellan and Trotz had a verbal agreement that if Orlov helped them with a salary cap friendly deal, the Caps would using him in the top 4 and give him a chance to establish there. I think the reasons that 44 has remained on the 3rd pair and 9 on the 2nd even with Carlson's struggles is because the Caps have a commitment to do that.

Last night Trotz only said of Orlov's blunders that they were "We mistakes".

I think you will see 44 and 74 back together later. Maybe by Tampa, but I think the Caps told Orlov he would be playing in the top 4 if he signed that deal. Both Mac and Trotz said exactly that after the deal was announced.

This has clearly worked for Orpik. Not so for Carlson and Orlov has been mixed.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Are you saying players can't play different types of systems?

If this is the case, then that's on GMBM.


I'm a little surprised at the calls for the return to fire wagon hockey. We've already seen that fail right?

Players play, see, and think the game a certain way that is unique to them based on a combination of their brain, physical capabilities, and previous coaching and playing exposure. A good coach finds a way to either teach his system in a manner that allows everyone to contribute or he changes the system to accentuate the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses of the players on his/her roster.

I think there is a degree of accountability at every level. Ted choose to hire from within and maintain the status quo, so to speak. GMBM acquired a coach and a roster that don't seem to mesh. Trotz doesn't seem to have any answers as to what's not working right now. The players need to play better and finish.

Fire wagon hockey is probably the wrong term. I meant faster hockey. Low to high and hoping to get deflections off of a shin guard isn't working for this group.

Hey, maybe this is all much ado about nothing. Mid-January was when they started to play meh hockey last year, right? So in about 6 weeks they'll have played meh hockey for more or less an entire year. But maybe they click and become a juggernaut again.

 

[twabby]

Define preferable. More fun to watch, still lose in the 2nd round?

That's not preferable if you're trying to win a Championship.

If you have bad goaltending then firewagon hockey won't get you far in the playoffs, see the 2009 Capitals and last season's version of the Stars.

However, last season's Penguins could also be considered a very uptempo/firewagon team with clear defensive deficiencies but they had a goaltender who could stop pucks in Matt Murray. It can work, especially with Holtby in net who has always been great in the postseason.

 

[Carlzner]

I'd like to see Carlzner reunited and Nisky and Orpik together. I think they would work well together.

 

[twabby]

I think that Orlov and agent and MacLellan and Trotz had a verbal agreement that if Orlov helped them with a salary cap friendly deal, the Caps would using him in the top 4 and give him a chance to establish there. I think the reasons that 44 has remained on the 3rd pair and 9 on the 2nd even with Carlson's struggles is because the Caps have a commitment to do that.

Last night Trotz only said of Orlov's blunders that they were "We mistakes".

I think you will see 44 and 74 back together later. Maybe by Tampa, but I think the Caps told Orlov he would be playing in the top 4 if he signed that deal. Both Mac and Trotz said exactly that after the deal was announced.

This has clearly worked for Orpik. Not so for Carlson and Orlov has been mixed.

I agree with the bolded conclusion. If they promised Orlov top 4 minutes they could still flip Alzner and Orlov (with 27-74 being the first pairing, 9-2 the second pairing) in an attempt to get Carlson going and maybe it will bring better balance overall to the backend. I want to see Alzner and Niskanen separated because while they are great defensively, they aren't very good in transition.