Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) -- 2018-19 We Are The Champions Edition - Pt. 1

[Hivemind]

And the Caps had failed to reach the 3rd round for the previous 13 years of Ovechkin's tenure. All sorts of shit happens in the playoffs. Tampa took both Washington and Pittsburgh to game 7 in the ECF. Writing them off (with or without Karlsson) is absurd. They will undoubtedly be among the favorites to win the Cup next year, and for good reason.

 

[Bananas]

After winning the Cup and resigning Carlson, Karlsson is an interesting offseason thought experiment...nothing more.

He would have been a heck of an option if we needed to majorly shake things up...but trading for him now is simply not in the cards anymore. Love him as a player, but that ship has rightfully, and happily, sailed.

Someone like Holtby, Carlson or Backstrom would have had to have been the centerpiece of any such deal - either directly to Ottawa or as a precursor move. Burakovsky or Orlov ++ barely warms the kettle for the tremendous haul that will be needed to trade for someone of EK’s magnitude. He will command marquee talents or an embarrassment of riches in terms of picks and prospects in return. Make no mistake.

Love toying with the idea, don’t get me wrong. It’s just not gonna happen...

 

[SherVaughn30]

And the Caps had failed to reach the 3rd round for the previous 13 years of Ovechkin's tenure. All sorts of **** happens in the playoffs. Tampa took both Washington and Pittsburgh to game 7 in the ECF. Writing them off (with or without Karlsson) is absurd. They will undoubtedly be among the favorites to win the Cup next year, and for good reason.

Bolts were up 3-2 against the Pens in the Conference Finals and lost 4-3 just like they did against the Caps. That should tell you something right there. Stamkos doesn't step up when the going gets tough in the playoffs. The same can be said about Kucherov. When it comes to physicallity(something still required in the playoffs), both players are very soft. Caps finally got over the hump because Reirden(not Trotz) made the right adjustments, the Caps center depth was the best ever, the bottom 6 was the right mix, the d-men group was the right mix and Holtby finally made the key playoff saves when he needed to. As good as the Bolts are on paper, with or without Karlsson, Cooper needs to be less arrogant and certain players on the Bolts roster need to step up in the playoffs or get shipped out.

 

[Brian23]

All I'm saying is, Dan Snyder adds names. Championship managers consider fit, chemistry and cost being as important as the name/talent.

It's a bad example because it hasn't really been the case in 5 or 6 years now.

Regardless, I think the issue with Shattenkirk was that Trotz sat Schmidt down instead of Orpik or Alzner. If they'd just let Schmidt play with Carlson or Shattenkirk I think we'd have been in a better spot. It's also an example of, not big names being the issue, but the coach not playing the guys the GM goes and get's. Was a large disconnect between Trotz and GMBM in player evaluation and the vision on the team in my opinion.

 

[Ridley Simon]

George McPhee regrets not hiring Jon Cooper to coach the Capitals in 2012

What about the other 4 hires

 

[maacoshark]

It's a bad example because it hasn't really been the case in 5 or 6 years now.

Regardless, I think the issue with Shattenkirk was that Trotz sat Schmidt down instead of Orpik or Alzner. If they'd just let Schmidt play with Carlson or Shattenkirk I think we'd have been in a better spot. It's also an example of, not big names being the issue, but the coach not playing the guys the GM goes and get's. Was a large disconnect between Trotz and GMBM in player evaluation and the vision on the team in my opinion.

The issue with Shattenkirk was Shattenkirk. It was a bad trade.

 

[RandyHolt]

Hadn't we cooked up the idea that neither Carlson nor Nisky could consistently put pucks into Ovi's wheelhouse? I think I always called that as bunk, as it it takes 2 to tango. Ovi can reposition himself slightly, step back, and step into shots etc. Immediately pass it right back to try again.

RD was actually a position of strength, and Kevin disrupted the pairings. He was mostly insurance, to me; we weren't broken. He could have been scratched and shelved for in case Nisky or Carlson got injured and we'd have likely done better.

 

[Hivemind]

Accepted by who? That’s so partisan, in so many ways.

17yr Caps GM can’t pick his coach.
1yr Caps GM can hire his coach.
4yr Caps GM can hire his coach

Ted gives Unseld free reign
Ted gives Ernie even more free reign.

George hires imbeciles as coach
Wes/Ernie hire whatecer they want as coach

Ted allow Basketball to do what it wants. Ted tell hockey what to do?

There’s a fellow named Dick Patrick who’s involved in hockey who isn’t involved in basketball.

We also don’t know if MacLellan hired Trotz, considering they were announced on the same day and interviews for coaches were being conducted at the same time as interviews for GMs. The best we have on that front is that BM helped show Trotz around town, but that doesn’t mean he had much say in the decision.

To suggest George had no fault in the coaching decisions in his tenure is a bit much. However, all signs definitely point towards Dick Patrick having a direct say in coaching matters.

 

[Melkor]

This Karlsson talk is silly. Caps have absolutely no need in his services. The only thing at which the team is somewhat lacking that Erik can provide for it is the first pass. Great first opening pass out of the d-zone to get offense going. I just don't see any significant struggles on the offensive side by the Caps to risk it all and pull the trigger. They have a balanced d-core which although already contains a guy who constantly gets clowned by the high forechecking teams (Dima boy) and Erik is exactly that type of player. There's a reason he's a minus player his whole career despite all-time great offensive toolbox. The guy constantly gets buried off the rush, has no body strength to push heavy attackers outside when needed and due to that plays very limited role on the PK.

To encapsulate all that, when people say Doughty is the best dman in the NHL they absolutely have a reason to think so cause Doughty (and maybe Hedman) is about the only defender in the league who is really GREAT on the puck and off of it while also being an absolute workhorse for their teams TOI-wise. So Karlsson is not a good fit at all. Big fat no.

 

[twabby]

This Karlsson talk is silly. Caps have absolutely no need in his services. The only thing at which the team is somewhat lacking that Erik can provide for it is the first pass. Great first opening pass out of the d-zone to get offense going. I just don't see any significant struggles on the offensive side by the Caps to risk it all and pull the trigger. They have a balanced d-core which although already contains a guy who constantly gets clowned by the high forechecking teams (Dima boy) and Erik is exactly that type of player. There's a reason he's a minus player his whole career despite all-time great offensive toolbox. The guy constantly gets buried off the rush, has no body strength to push heavy attackers outside when needed and due to that plays very limited role on the PK.

To encapsulate all that, when people say Doughty is the best dman in the NHL they absolutely have a reason to think so cause Doughty (and maybe Hedman) is about the only defender in the league who is really GREAT on the puck and off of it while also being an absolute workhorse for their teams TOI-wise. So Karlsson is not a good fit at all. Big fat no.

I counted at least 7 wrong statements in this post.

 

[Melkor]

I counted at least 7 wrong statements in this post.

That's okay if you think so. I personally don't think of Karlsson as a defenseman in a full meaning of that term so he's not even close to Doughty in my mind. Would easily take Doughty and run if had to choose.

 

[twabby]

That's okay. I personally don't think of Karlsson as a defenseman in a full meaning of that term so he's not even close to Doughty in my mind. Would easily take Doughty and run if had to choose.

I'm not even counting Doughty vs. Karlsson as something you said as wrong because that's just an opinion. Many people prefer Doughty over Karlsson, which is fine even if I don't agree.

Here are the objectively wrong things:

This Karlsson talk is silly. Caps have absolutely no need in his services. The only thing at which the team is somewhat lacking that Erik can provide for it is the first pass. Great first opening pass out of the d-zone to get offense going. I just don't see any significant struggles on the offensive side by the Caps to risk it all and pull the trigger. They have a balanced d-core which although already contains a guy who constantly gets clowned by the high forechecking teams (Dima boy) (#1) and Erik is exactly that type of player. (#2) There's a reason he's a minus player his whole career despite all-time great offensive toolbox (#3, you are implying he's a minus player because he's bad defensively). The guy constantly gets buried off the rush (#4), has no body strength to push heavy attackers outside when needed (#5) and due to that plays very limited role on the PK (#6).

To encapsulate all that, when people say Doughty is the best dman in the NHL they absolutely have a reason to think so cause Doughty (and maybe Hedman) is about the only defender in the league who is really GREAT on the puck and off of it while also being an absolute workhorse for their teams TOI-wise (#7). So Karlsson is not a good fit at all. Big fat no.

 

[Empty Goal Net]

Hadn't we cooked up the idea that neither Carlson nor Nisky could consistently put pucks into Ovi's wheelhouse? I think I always called that as bunk, as it it takes 2 to tango. Ovi can reposition himself slightly, step back, and step into shots etc. Immediately pass it right back to try again.

RD was actually a position of strength, and Kevin disrupted the pairings. He was mostly insurance, to me; we weren't broken. He could have been scratched and shelved for in case Nisky or Carlson got injured and we'd have likely done better.

I also thought that GMBM went after Shatty to keep him from the Pens. Once that was accomplished, sitting him may have been the better option.

 

[Melkor]

I'm not even counting Doughty vs. Karlsson as something you said as wrong because that's just an opinion. Many people prefer Doughty over Karlsson, which is fine even if I don't agree.

Here are the objectively wrong things:

Feel free to disagree. I personally don't like Orlov and his defensive breakdowns because of 1) them almost always leading to grade A scoring chances against; 2) them almost always being 1 on 1 situations which even further exposes him as unreliable d-player; 3) him not getting elite offensive numbers to excuse all that. Re Karlsson: he's bad defensively. He's a bad player off the puck, he would look even worse had he played on the west like 5-6 years ago. All my points about his weaknesses stand, I don't mind if somebody is fallen in love with the guy and sees him differently. Also even more adamant about Doughty and Hedman being two best D in the league by quite a margin. Nobody close if you take into account both o and d sides of the game.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

With the log jam at young waiver eilgable D I would be open to Trading 2 of them. Would Bowey Johnson Bura and draft picks get it done? Would we have to pay more to find a taker for Ryan?
EK replacing Orpik would be amazing. Even these teams with 3 good centers would struggle vs us.

 

[searle]

I have seen many people say "didn't you see Karlsson in the playoffs that one year?"

Maybe that was the only time he was at full health, for all we know. Or that was just him not playing within a structured system.

I would rather see multiple regular seasons of that sort of playoff head turning grade play before entertaining shaking up our cup winning roster to pay out the ass for one guy.

The dude was playing with two hairline fractures in his heel for what it's worth.

No one should be disputing that the Caps would be better with Karlsson, as many have pointed out it's mainly the issue of the cap, and what it would cost to get him in terms of roster players being sent back.

It SHOULD never happen, but jesus it'd be seriously exciting if it did, and I'd love to see it.

 

[Melkor]

With the log jam at young waiver eilgable D I would be open to Trading 2 of them. Would Bowey Johnson Bura and draft picks get it done? Would we have to pay more to find a taker for Ryan?
EK replacing Orpik would be amazing. Even these teams with 3 good centers would struggle vs us.

You trade for an elite forward if you move Bura out, not EK. Otherwise, that bottom 6 looks even more suspect after Beagle's departure than it already does. I'd go for Panarin if CBJ would allow other teams to talk to him re extension to get his pricetag up.

 

[twabby]

Feel free to disagree. I personally don't like Orlov and his defensive breakdowns because of 1) them almost always leading to grade A scoring chances against; 2) them almost always being 1 on 1 situations which even further exposes him as unreliable d-player; 3) him not getting elite offensive numbers to excuse all that. Re Karlsson: he's bad defensively. He's a bad player off the puck, he would look even worse had he played on the west like 5-6 years ago. All my points about his weaknesses stand, I don't mind if somebody is fallen in love with the guy and sees him differently. Also even more adamant about Doughty and Hedman being two best D in the league by quite a margin. Nobody close if you take into account both o and d sides of the game.

Orlov struggles some 1v1 on the rush, that doesn't make him weak defensively and doesn't make him bad against "high forechecking teams." It means he has a specific defensive weakness that he needs to work on. It's like saying Backstrom isn't the best straight-line skater and he has a bad slapshot, therefore he's a poor offensive player. Orlov's shots against, chances against, and goals against are near the best on the team while getting the hardest ES minutes. If the puck doesn't end up in or on the net with high frequency

Also while his offensive numbers aren't elite, most of that is due to him not being a significant PP player. Orlov's ES production/60 over the past 3 seasons is 12th in the NHL out of 176 qualified defensemen, behind only Karlsson, Burns, Hedman, Hamilton, Klingberg, Josi, Markov, Ellis, Byfuglien, Carlson, and Subban. Orlov is a fantastic ES producer and he's in some really good company.

Regarding Karlsson: I think the problem that people have with him is that they downplay his huge offensive contributions because maybe he's slightly below average defensively. If he individually drives a positive goal differential due to his offensive contributions who cares how many goals he gives up from his defensive play? No one cares that Ovechkin or Crosby aren't very strong defensive players because they are excellent at putting pucks in the net. Why should we treat Karlsson differently? *waits for "he's a DEFENSEman" argument*

 

[RandyHolt]

The dude was playing with two hairline fractures in his heel for what it's worth.

No one should be disputing that the Caps would be better with Karlsson, as many have pointed out it's mainly the issue of the cap, and what it would cost to get him in terms of roster players being sent back.

It SHOULD never happen, but jesus it'd be seriously exciting if it did, and I'd love to see it.

Not that I doubt you, but point counter point. Did anyone predict we would be worse with Kevin Shattenkirk? We are collectively damn smart when it comes to hockey and we all applauded the move. It turns out he was best served as injury depth. The D work best in pairs. Breaking one up to make a new one isn't guaranteed.

If we snagged EK, Carlson would get bumped to PK2 and PP2 duty. Suddenly, wouldn't he maybe be a bit overpaid? The grass ain't always greener, not to mention the green money cap room thing. We could go for the full right shot monty if we bring back Green too.

Green Nisky | Karlsson Carlson | Shattenkirk errr Bowey

 

[Ridley Simon]

It's a bad example because it hasn't really been the case in 5 or 6 years now.

Regardless, I think the issue with Shattenkirk was that Trotz sat Schmidt down instead of Orpik or Alzner. If they'd just let Schmidt play with Carlson or Shattenkirk I think we'd have been in a better spot. It's also an example of, not big names being the issue, but the coach not playing the guys the GM goes and get's. Was a large disconnect between Trotz and GMBM in player evaluation and the vision on the team in my opinion.

I agree with this. GMBM did the right move, it just didn’t work out. I think Trotz played the wrong players.

Look I’m happy we won w Trotz. But it’s seemingly looking more and more like he was along for the ride. GMBM has done a tremendous job. I trust him above everyone else. If he wants Reirden, then as far as I’m concerned, he’s right and anyone that thinks otherwise is flat wrong. Simply put.

 

[Ridley Simon]

There’s a fellow named Dick Patrick who’s involved in hockey who isn’t involved in basketball.

We also don’t know if MacLellan hired Trotz, considering they were announced on the same day and interviews for coaches were being conducted at the same time as interviews for GMs. The best we have on that front is that BM helped show Trotz around town, but that doesn’t mean he had much say in the decision.

To suggest George had no fault in the coaching decisions in his tenure is a bit much. However, all signs definitely point towards Dick Patrick having a direct say in coaching matters.

Don’t get me wrong...I’ve been pointing the finger at Patrick (on these boards) for years now. I honestly think it was Dick that wanted Trotz....and the fact the GMBM was able to help lasso him, is one of the main reasons that GMBM got the job. I don’t think GMBM had any real “say” in the decision, save agreeing with it and using it to his advantage.

But that was 4 years ago, and GMBM has really earned his cred with the hierarchy. He’s def in charge now. That said, who knows what happened behind the scenes to signal Trotz to leave. Trotz knew 5x5 wouldn’t happen, so he asked for it. Knowing it wouldn’t happen. Did Dick want Barry to stay? We probably won’t know that for a long while, if ever.

Who knows where Ted is in all of this.

But I do blame George for the coaching hires. Sure. Maybe he wanted Cooper and was overruled. It’s easy for him to say in hindsight after the disaster that was Oates. Hell, if Oates had been the man, would George still be saying he wanted Cooper instead? I doubt it. George wasn’t one to admit his own failures all that well. Arrogant SOB.

 

[VaCaps Fan]

Vegas is in for a ride with GMGM the next few years....

 

[kicksavedave]

I agree with this. GMBM did the right move, it just didn’t work out. I think Trotz played the wrong players.

Look I’m happy we won w Trotz. But it’s seemingly looking more and more like he was along for the ride. GMBM has done a tremendous job. I trust him above everyone else. If he wants Reirden, then as far as I’m concerned, he’s right and anyone that thinks otherwise is flat wrong. Simply put.

IMO, if the move didn't work out, then it was the wrong move. Its up to the GM to know how the coach plans to use his assets, and how he'd use new assets if acquired. Should have been no surprise at all to GMBM that Schmidt was going to be sat for Shat.

Its therefore also up to the GM to bring in assets that fit within the coaching staff's philosophy and the existing line combos, both 5v5 and PP. Its still not fantasy hockey, where compiling pure stats or names wins championships. Fit and chemistry, as we have just finally witnessed, are most critical. And a good GM making the right moves takes this into account. The Shat trade did not factor this in, thus is was a bad move. The Kempny trade DID factor this in, and thus it helped us win a Cup.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Guys quietly been with the team for 13 years and may be #4 in charge.

He's a Primarily a lawyer and now bean counter....but yeah...he is up there. I don't think he's making any hockey decisions. Not his background.

 

[Ridley Simon]

IMO, if the move didn't work out, then it was the wrong move. Its up to the GM to know how the coach plans to use his assets, and how he'd use new assets if acquired. Should have been no surprise at all to GMBM that Schmidt was going to be sat for Shat.

Its therefore also up to the GM to bring in assets that fit within the coaching staff's philosophy and the existing line combos, both 5v5 and PP. Its still not fantasy hockey, where compiling pure stats or names wins championships. Fit and chemistry, as we have just finally witnessed, are most critical. And a good GM making the right moves takes this into account. The Shat trade did not factor this in, thus is was a bad move. The Kempny trade DID factor this in, and thus it helped us win a Cup.

I honestly don’t think it always works that way. The GM says to coach “I can get this guy, will cost that guy”, and coach says “I’m in”. If it’s a player you don’t know well (meaning, has played for you), you can’t predict what will happen. GMBM didn’t tell Trotz who to play. Neither did George w Oates. Or George w Gallant.

Happens a lot. GM acquires a player, coach doesn’t play them in a manner that works. I dont fault the GM. That’s like saying no GM does a good job unless they win it all.

So we will need to disagree here.