Salary Cap: Cap Crunch Discussion (again)

[LDF]

We should be used to it at this point so... shrug. I don't expect much, if any return for Kruger, but I also don't for see any issue moving him. He is a productive and healthy defensive center, something every team needs/wants. His contract is slightly limiting in that not every team will be able to fit him under their cap, but plenty still can. Kruger is the type of player that fans undervalue, but coaches/GMs love. There will be a market.

As for how would I feel if the Hawks keep Kruger, go to the playoffs but don't win it, then have to trade him in the offseason? Again... shrug. This isn't a perfect team, or even a powerhouse team like we have seen in the past. But the core is still productive and the supporting cast, while not scoring much right now, is all young and still getting their feet wet in the NHL. There is a chance some will get better and be more productive come playoff time. They basically only need 1 or 2 young guys to step up and become secondary scoring threats. I'd rather keep Kruger and bet on young guys stepping up offensively to round out the team, then trade Kruger and then have to fill the void left by him and still be forced to count on 1 or 2 young guys improving to help secondary scoring.

but when the team that is trading him, has to trade or move him, then it is business time. what is it in for them to do it???

the other para, i am and was thinking of the other core players to carry the team, in order to trade kruger and as it seems another key high priced player, in order to fit under the cap.

trade them now, instead of having to sweeten the deal. there is no guarantees in business and no matter what, hockey is a business first.

 

[piteus]

but when the team that is trading him, has to trade or move him, then it is business time. what is it in for them to do it???

the other para, i am and was thinking of the other core players to carry the team, in order to trade kruger and as it seems another key high priced player, in order to fit under the cap.

trade them now, instead of having to sweeten the deal. there is no guarantees in business and no matter what, hockey is a business first.

It all depends. If there are more than two parties interested, it doesn't matter if the Hawks have to trade Kruger. The interested parties will bid against their needs vs. our needs. Of course, there need to be two parties.

If possible, I don't think we trade Kruger during the season. We're short forwards ... that's just too big of a risk in a wide open West. No trade is a trade for the Hawks this year. We could trade a Dmen as we are surprisingly deep this year.

 

[Rolo]

Seabrook and Crawford to Winnipeg for Trouba, Hellebuyck, Matthias, 2017 1st

Re-up Darling, Campbell, Panik

Sign Sharp, Oduya, Stalberg (optional), D.Moore

Panarin - Anisimov - Kane
Sharp - Toews - Hossa
Hartman - Kruger - Panik
Matthias - Moore - Stalberg/Schmaltz/Hinostroza/Motte
Rasmussen

Keith - Trouba
Oduya - Hjalmarsson
Forsling - Campbell
TVR

Hellebuyck
Darling

---

Jets would need to trade Myers for something.

Ehlers - Scheifele - Laine
Perreault - Little - Wheeler
Dano - Petan - UFA/Stafford
Lowry - Connor/Burmistrov - Armia
Tanev

Enstrom - Seabrook
Morrissey - Byfuglien
Stuart/Chiarot - Postma

Crawford
Hutchinson

 

[LDF]

It all depends. If there are more than two parties interested, it doesn't matter if the Hawks have to trade Kruger. The interested parties will bid against their needs vs. our needs. Of course, there need to be two parties.

If possible, I don't think we trade Kruger during the season. We're short forwards ... that's just too big of a risk in a wide open West. No trade is a trade for the Hawks this year. We could trade a Dmen as we are surprisingly deep this year.

re the bold, as soon as you mention "if" you are putting this whole point in the hands of faith. there is too much faith in anything, like faith that the hawks will get that 3rd line scoring, or everything will be ok. more importantly hoping that the hawks will get to the final... do you think as the team is now, they will get to the final??? i know faith.

re the 2nd para, i agree with you, i was really thinking of the other player the hawks will need to rid themselves of the salary. that is the player that needs to be traded, esp when the season is going on. the trade deadline is coming and teams needs that special player to help them in the playoff. that player who the hawks will need to trade may better suited to be traded now. while many team will need that kind of player, esp if that player happens to be a d-man of the hawks. now do the trade before other team realize that they are out of the running and start to trade off their assets, d-man of special talent.

 

[BK]

Seabrook and Crawford to Winnipeg for Trouba, Hellebuyck, Matthias, 2017 1st

Re-up Darling, Campbell, Panik

Sign Sharp, Oduya, Stalberg (optional), D.Moore

Panarin - Anisimov - Kane
Sharp - Toews - Hossa
Hartman - Kruger - Panik
Matthias - Moore - Stalberg/Schmaltz/Hinostroza/Motte
Rasmussen

Keith - Trouba
Oduya - Hjalmarsson
Forsling - Campbell
TVR

Hellebuyck
Darling

---

Jets would need to trade Myers for something.

Ehlers - Scheifele - Laine
Perreault - Little - Wheeler
Dano - Petan - UFA/Stafford
Lowry - Connor/Burmistrov - Armia
Tanev

Enstrom - Seabrook
Morrissey - Byfuglien
Stuart/Chiarot - Postma

Crawford
Hutchinson

I would make this trade in a heartbeat but there is no way on earth that the Jets would do this.

 

[Rolo]

I would make this trade in a heartbeat but there is no way on earth that the Jets would do this.

Sub Trouba for Myers? 1st to 2nd? Myers salary would prevent the signing of Oduya/Sharp

Jet's biggest weakness is goaltending, and a legit #1 D-man. Byfuglien should not be your #1 D-man on a cup contending team, and not sure how high they are on Hellebuyck. I think Hawks can get away with Darling/Hellebuyck tandem.

 

[BK]

Sub Trouba for Myers? 1st to 2nd? Myers salary would prevent the signing of Oduya/Sharp

Jet's biggest weakness is goaltending a legit #1 D-man. Byfuglien should not be your #1 D-man on a cup contending team, and not sure how high they are on Hellebuyck. I think Hawks can get away with Darling/Hellebuyck tandem.

I would not sign Oduya or Sharp.

I would still do the trade with the changes you listed.

Hellebuyck has the makings of a really good #1. His ceiling is higher than Crawfords.

If Stan made than first trade he should be instantly elected to the HHoF and arrested for grand theft.

 

[piteus]

re the bold, as soon as you mention "if" you are putting this whole point in the hands of faith. there is too much faith in anything, like faith that the hawks will get that 3rd line scoring, or everything will be ok. more importantly hoping that the hawks will get to the final... do you think as the team is now, they will get to the final??? i know faith.

re the 2nd para, i agree with you, i was really thinking of the other player the hawks will need to rid themselves of the salary. that is the player that needs to be traded, esp when the season is going on. the trade deadline is coming and teams needs that special player to help them in the playoff. that player who the hawks will need to trade may better suited to be traded now. while many team will need that kind of player, esp if that player happens to be a d-man of the hawks. now do the trade before other team realize that they are out of the running and start to trade off their assets, d-man of special talent.

It's not faith (nothing is guaranteed) ... it's TIME. It's one of the components of valuing an option. To say the Hawks have little to no leverage is not exactly right. However, you do argue to trade the value of time ... so your argument is:

* Time + Kruger = getting rid of his contract in spring 2017 ... it's a valid argument.

However, there are variables we don't know. If there are multiple teams interested in Kruger at the deadline ... why would they not be interested after the season? Opportunity cost? Sure ... but so high that everyone will drop out? There's also the unknown "the Kruger option" who could play himself into the money that will help maximize his value.

There's also the Hawks opportunity of 2017. Is it worth it to give up Kruger's time value in spring 2017 for fall 2017?

There are risk / rewards to either argument.

 

[piteus]

Sub Trouba for Myers? 1st to 2nd? Myers salary would prevent the signing of Oduya/Sharp

Jet's biggest weakness is goaltending, and a legit #1 D-man. Byfuglien should not be your #1 D-man on a cup contending team, and not sure how high they are on Hellebuyck. I think Hawks can get away with Darling/Hellebuyck tandem.

I know Seabrook is Canadian, but I don't think he'll willingly agree to go to Winnipeg. Toews ... sure ... but not Seabrook. I don't see Seabrook waiving his no trade clause for Winnipeg.

 

[ClydeLee]

It's close enough to B.C.

but that there is an EA NHL trade if I've ever seen one, not a chance at Chevy helping Bowman that much despite the robbery he got last year.

 

[piteus]

It's close enough to B.C.

but that there is an EA NHL trade if I've ever seen one, not a chance at Chevy helping Bowman that much despite the robbery he got last year.

I like to make of Canadians too ... but "it's close enough to BC?" Even Seabrook wouldn't fall for that

 

[LDF]

It's not faith (nothing is guaranteed) ... it's TIME. It's one of the components of valuing an option. To say the Hawks have little to no leverage is not exactly right. However, you do argue to trade the value of time ... so your argument is:

* Time + Kruger = getting rid of his contract in spring 2017 ... it's a valid argument. there is another way to look into this is in the essential timing, bottom line luck. luck is and will always be associated to essential timing. like an example of the luck of having the right time to make a trade. here in my argument against that, can not a team know of this and create its own luck, its own timing to kick start a chain of events???

However, there are variables we don't know. If there are multiple teams interested in Kruger at the deadline ... why would they not be interested after the season? Opportunity cost? Sure ... but so high that everyone will drop out? There's also the unknown "the Kruger option" who could play himself into the money that will help maximize his value. oh i totally agree with this 100% with the example of kruger and i saw this a long time back, that was why i was and still am in trading that 2nd player or players that will be needed to fix this cap.... remember me ranting about fixing this cap. this is what i have been preaching about.

There's also the Hawks opportunity of 2017. Is it worth it to give up Kruger's time value in spring 2017 for fall 2017?

There are risk / rewards to either argument.

the point is esp in the last para, before the season, the next 2017 season starts, is the cap is fix and did the hawks have to sacrifice any key players to make it happen, ie: schm, hartman, DeBrincat???

are the hawks in worst shape than ever???

 

[LDF]

I like to make of Canadians too ... but "it's close enough to BC?" Even Seabrook wouldn't fall for that

i my honest opinion, i am betting that both SB and seabs thought of something like this, hence the salary and the contract he got, with the nmc.

hell, SB is suppose to be a smart person, if i can think of this scenario now, i can almost assume he thought of this way before ....

 

[LDF]

Sub Trouba for Myers? 1st to 2nd? Myers salary would prevent the signing of Oduya/Sharp

Jet's biggest weakness is goaltending, and a legit #1 D-man. Byfuglien should not be your #1 D-man on a cup contending team, and not sure how high they are on Hellebuyck. I think Hawks can get away with Darling/Hellebuyck tandem.

i don't necessary agree with any of this, but in this scenario, i am going to throw something out there. remember i am just spit ballin

but flip trouba to col for their draft pick and maybe something else. sweeten the deal to make it work.

 

[Rolo]

Myers [5.5] x 2
Hellebuyck [2.3] x 2 (bridge deal estimate)
Matthias [2.125] x 1
pick/prospects

9.915

for

Seabrook [6.875] x 7
Crawford [6] x 3

12.875

 

[LordKOTL]

the point is esp in the last para, before the season, the next 2017 season starts, is the cap is fix and did the hawks have to sacrifice any key players to make it happen, ie: schm, hartman, DeBrincat???

are the hawks in worst shape than ever???

Theoretically the 'hawks can make the cap work with just losing Kruger and *no* cap increase. It's way less than ideal but it's possible.

However, the 'hawks are not in the worst shape ever. Arkhipov is not wearing 19. The ABC line is not our top line. We're not icing Vorobiev or Kukkonen. Augroin is not our captain. Boucher is not our netminder. Dr. Karpotsev is not missing games because he thinks he has a concussion.

 

[LDF]

Theoretically the 'hawks can make the cap work with just losing Kruger and *no* cap increase. It's way less than ideal but it's possible.

However, the 'hawks are not in the worst shape ever. Arkhipov is not wearing 19. The ABC line is not our top line. We're not icing Vorobiev or Kukkonen. Augroin is not our captain. Boucher is not our netminder. Dr. Karpotsev is not missing games because he thinks he has a concussion.

bravo..... i love it.

can't beat that.

 

[Kaners PPGs]

it doesn't matter about a value of what he is worth to chi, it is the value of what will it take to entice a team/vegas to take him.

i am been ranting for weeks about trading them now, b/c of the unexpected things might happen. but to make sure that cap is fixed. do not wait and then be placed behind the eight ball, where the team will then need to pay some team to help them out.

if done right, the hawks still may damage their chances in the playoff.

With another team being added, that IMPROVES Kruger's value. That's 20-something more players added to the league. Plus, the expansion draft will free up money for teams.

 

[LDF]

With another team being added, that IMPROVES Kruger's value. That's 20-something more players added to the league. Plus, the expansion draft will free up money for teams.

oh i agree and i stated as such in piteus post, post #80.

but at this time, time before the deadline or even in the offseason, teams will be looking to fix their cap and team as well. so there will be other team trying to sell or move players, just like the hawks.

so if you are the other team looking at a player, player A is kruger, player B is who knows, why should i look at player A..... esp if both players are close to equal talent. how can you convince me to take player A.....

 

[piteus]

With another team being added, that IMPROVES Kruger's value. That's 20-something more players added to the league. Plus, the expansion draft will free up money for teams.

Yep. Expansion waters down the talent in the League until experience catches up. I have to think teams that can contend for a Cup (esp. young) will have interest in Kruger. We won't get much in return ... or have to give up much either.

 

[Kaners PPGs]

so if you are the other team looking at a player, player A is kruger, player B is who knows, why should i look at player A..... esp if both players are close to equal talent. how can you convince me to take player A.....

I think a lot of people are underestimating Kruger's value. Look at his usage, there are not many centers who do what he does. When players get stupid money in free agency, Kruger's salary is not a problem for what he brings to the table. He would be a great addition to team like Florida, Edmonton, Toronto, Carolina, ect. When Civikas and Clutterbuck are getting over 3 Mil, Kruger is not overpaid.

I just don't think it will be a problem moving him.

 

[LDF]

I think a lot of people are underestimating Kruger's value. Look at his usage, there are not many centers who do what he does. When players get stupid money in free agency, Kruger's salary is not a problem for what he brings to the table. He would be a great addition to team like Florida, Edmonton, Toronto, Carolina, ect. When Civikas and Clutterbuck are getting over 3 Mil, Kruger is not overpaid.

I just don't think it will be a problem moving him.

re the first bold, the way you are thinking is what is called systemic value, esp the perceived value of a player. there is a major problem with that and that is that these problems is to make all necessary preparation with protection to either the org or for that season yr. but i think it should also to keep constant attention for these protections. thru organizational diligence. the diligence in my thought process is to fix the cap and with the cap fix, then on to winning more SC's. i made an example earlier, of a person perception of this yr hawks .... well my is they are avg, maybe a little above avg, they will make the playoff, however the team needs more help and there is no help coming, to my perception. the fo were not doing their due diligence in keeping up with the team. especially with the over value of the players value, meaning over payment on salary which is the stem or root of all these discussions.

re the bold, this way of thinking, thinking of a value of a person, esp a team in contention is often wildly inflated because of the promise of an unidentified ceiling. kruger is that, an unidentifiable ceiling b/c we are fans, not the experts.

 

[mikee]

re the first bold, the way you are thinking is what is called systemic value, esp the perceived value of a player. there is a major problem with that and that is that these problems is to make all necessary preparation with protection to either the org or for that season yr. but i think it should also to keep constant attention for these protections. thru organizational diligence. the diligence in my thought process is to fix the cap and with the cap fix, then on to winning more SC's. i made an example earlier, of a person perception of this yr hawks .... well my is they are avg, maybe a little above avg, they will make the playoff, however the team needs more help and there is no help coming, to my perception. the fo were not doing their due diligence in keeping up with the team. especially with the over value of the players value, meaning over payment on salary which is the stem or root of all these discussions.

re the bold, this way of thinking, thinking of a value of a person, esp a team in contention is often wildly inflated because of the promise of an unidentified ceiling. kruger is that, an unidentifiable ceiling b/c we are fans, not the experts.

And now I'm done.

The Hawks have a stud starting goalie, five Top 6 forwards and three top 4 defensemen locked up for this season and the following two. That comes at a price, and that price is continual cap issues. If you would rather start dealing some of those core pieces to "fix" the cap issues then you are just trading one set of problems (the good kind of having too many good players) for a different one (having some maneuvering room but short on key players). I'll take situation A every time, thanks.

They have been dealing with the same situation for years, and have dealt with it well more times than not over that time. If anything, the team is in better shape cap wise heading into this offseason than they have been since Kane and Toews exited their ELCs. They don't need to break apart a team like they have in a few of the cap crunch seasons. They have to move 1 freaking guy with a 3.09M cap hit (but less actual salary). That is a walk in the park for this team.

 

[LDF]

And now I'm done.

The Hawks have a stud starting goalie, five Top 6 forwards and three top 4 defensemen locked up for this season and the following two. That comes at a price, and that price is continual cap issues. If you would rather start dealing some of those core pieces to "fix" the cap issues then you are just trading one set of problems (the good kind of having too many good players) for a different one (having some maneuvering room but short on key players). I'll take situation A every time, thanks.

They have been dealing with the same situation for years, and have dealt with it well more times than not over that time. If anything, the team is in better shape cap wise heading into this offseason than they have been since Kane and Toews exited their ELCs. They don't need to break apart a team like they have in a few of the cap crunch seasons. They have to move 1 freaking guy with a 3.09M cap hit (but less actual salary). That is a walk in the park for this team.

i do not know if i agree with all, but re the bold, i too am done.

my hats goes off to all those who posted and really debated the topic.

my thanks to all

 

[Kaners PPGs]

And now I'm done.

The Hawks have a stud starting goalie, five Top 6 forwards and three top 4 defensemen locked up for this season and the following two. That comes at a price, and that price is continual cap issues. If you would rather start dealing some of those core pieces to "fix" the cap issues then you are just trading one set of problems (the good kind of having too many good players) for a different one (having some maneuvering room but short on key players). I'll take situation A every time, thanks.

They have been dealing with the same situation for years, and have dealt with it well more times than not over that time. If anything, the team is in better shape cap wise heading into this offseason than they have been since Kane and Toews exited their ELCs. They don't need to break apart a team like they have in a few of the cap crunch seasons. They have to move 1 freaking guy with a 3.09M cap hit (but less actual salary). That is a walk in the park for this team.

100% agreed. Plus, the West is as weak as it's been in what?? 10 years? More? When was the last time the West was this weak? And even though the Hawks are not as strong as they were in years past, they have just as good as chance as any team to come out of the west. So LDF's suggestion is to trade a vital part of the team's bottom 6 and penalty kill to fix the cap problem for next year? Flags fly forever! This is a win-now team. Even if you do have to add a sweetner to move Kruger in the offseason, I don't think they'll have to, you still keep him for the playoffs.