Salary Cap: Cap Crunch Discussion (again)

[projexns]

People are dreaming in technicolor if they think Kruger is going to be dumped without a steep cost.

Teravainen was the cost for dumping Bickell and we saw what we got for Sharp while also having to include Johns.

Now we also have 30 players becoming available because of the expansion draft. Kruger is nothing special in this marketplace, yet we MUST dump him because of Panarin's new contract.

 

[LDF]

People are dreaming in technicolor if they think Kruger is going to be dumped without a steep cost.

Teravainen was the cost for dumping Bickell and we saw what we got for Sharp while also having to include Johns.

Now we also have 30 players becoming available because of the expansion draft. Kruger is nothing special in this marketplace, yet we MUST dump him because of Panarin's new contract.

that is a beauty, i just wished i had to balls to do something like this

kudos

 

[Blue Liner]

that is a beauty, i just wished i had to balls to do something like this

kudos

What's stopping you? This is just a goofy message board. Who cares?

 

[BK]

People are dreaming in technicolor if they think Kruger is going to be dumped without a steep cost.

Teravainen was the cost for dumping Bickell and we saw what we got for Sharp while also having to include Johns.

Now we also have 30 players becoming available because of the expansion draft. Kruger is nothing special in this marketplace, yet we MUST dump him because of Panarin's new contract.

I am going to disagree here.

Differences between Bickel and Kruger:

- Kruger is on a cheaper deal than Bickel
- Bickel was not an NHL caliber player and Kruger while limited offensively is one of the better defensive centers in the NHL and a great PKer

Teams that take Kruger will most likely be getting an upgrade at the center position and have zero long term risk because he will be an expiring deal next year. Team will not just be eating money when taking on Kruger.

So basically Bickel and Kruger are nothing alike situation wise other than the Hawks wanting to move them to deal with cap issues.

The Sharp trade was similar but he was making double what Kruger was making while showing signs of his game slipping. Johns was a fine prospect but lets not act like he is setting the world on fire in Dallas.

 

[LDF]

What's stopping you? This is just a goofy message board. Who cares?

lack of moxie on my part.

 

[piteus]

People are dreaming in technicolor if they think Kruger is going to be dumped without a steep cost.

Teravainen was the cost for dumping Bickell and we saw what we got for Sharp while also having to include Johns.

Now we also have 30 players becoming available because of the expansion draft. Kruger is nothing special in this marketplace, yet we MUST dump him because of Panarin's new contract.

Are you comparing:

* Kruger's play to Bickell who was at the early stages of MS while on the Hawks?
* Kruger's contract to Sharp's contract?

If so ... my nightmares are in HD.

 

[LDF]

Are you comparing:

* Kruger's play to Bickell who was at the early stages of MS while on the Hawks?
* Kruger's contract to Sharp's contract?

If so ... my nightmares are in HD.

that is a classic for the ages..... well done and extremely funny.

 

[projexns]

Are you comparing:

* Kruger's play to Bickell who was at the early stages of MS while on the Hawks?
* Kruger's contract to Sharp's contract?

If so ... my nightmares are in HD.

The most relevant comparison is the need to dump a contract when the other team knows it and that Kruger isn't an earth-shattering NHLer, especially at $3million per.

I'm also making my comparison based on having made an attempt to see what a 30-man expansion draft roster would look like for Vegas based on what I think will be available. I see no shortage of centers and no difficulties in reaching the cap floor.

If you've done the same exercise, I'd like to see the shortage of centers that you see, and the inability to get to the cap floor.

 

[ClydeLee]

The most relevant comparison is the need to dump a contract when the other team knows it and that Kruger isn't an earth-shattering NHLer, especially at $3million per.

I'm also making my comparison based on having made an attempt to see what a 30-man expansion draft roster would look like for Vegas based on what I think will be available. I see no shortage of centers and no difficulties in reaching the cap floor.

If you've done the same exercise, I'd like to see the shortage of centers that you see, and the inability to get to the cap floor.

There's also no shortage of good or potential filled young dmen because how many teams will even reach to protect their 4th dman with the 8 skaters option?

In comparisons to what will help a team that by all acounts wants to be competitive right away, a trustable defensive PKing center or a RH cheap 3rd pair defensemen or a prospect RH defensemen in Pokka?

They don't NEED Kruger for hitting the capfloor... they also don't NEED a cheap 1 year left at 850K on the contract defender like TVR. But of actual impact on the team value Kruger to almost anyone would probably be concluded as having a better impact.

 

[theaub]

tbh need the Hawks to win this year for the annual 'checking line centre on SC winner bump'

Otherwise yeah they're going to have to add something decent to get rid of Kruger.

 

[piteus]

I think it's somewhere in the middle. It won't be a steep price ... but perhaps a 3rd round draft choice for Vegas to take Kruger off our hands. At worst, a late 2nd rounder.

And let's not make it like Kruger is just some warm body. He's contributing a lot to a very good team battling numerous injuries at forward.

The question is if he's worth $2.2mn/year vs. $3mn/year. It's not like he's vastly overpaid with a ton of years left on his contract.

 

[Kaners PPGs]

People are dreaming in technicolor if they think Kruger is going to be dumped without a steep cost.

Teravainen was the cost for dumping Bickell and we saw what we got for Sharp while also having to include Johns.

Now we also have 30 players becoming available because of the expansion draft. Kruger is nothing special in this marketplace, yet we MUST dump him because of Panarin's new contract.

You must not know Kruger's value. He plays against some of the toughest opponents, takes nearly half of the team's dzone faceoffs, and yet still has positive possession numbers. Plus, he has dragged around quite a few bumasss players over the years. You watch- a team like Florida will gladly take Kruger at 3 M per.

 

[Any Colour You Like]

Kruger's movable. At this point, I know better than to doubt Stan and his ability to fit a quality team under the cap.

 

[LDF]

There's also no shortage of good or potential filled young dmen because how many teams will even reach to protect their 4th dman with the 8 skaters option?

In comparisons to what will help a team that by all acounts wants to be competitive right away, a trustable defensive PKing center or a RH cheap 3rd pair defensemen or a prospect RH defensemen in Pokka?

They don't NEED Kruger for hitting the capfloor... they also don't NEED a cheap 1 year left at 850K on the contract defender like TVR. But of actual impact on the team value Kruger to almost anyone would probably be concluded as having a better impact.

you are betting on a possibility that things will happen as hoped. but with ref to tvr and any other young players that vegas may pick, who is cap friendly, they can be used for a trade piece.

this idea of kruger being picked by vegas is a pipe dream.

 

[LDF]

tbh need the Hawks to win this year for the annual 'checking line centre on SC winner bump'

Otherwise yeah they're going to have to add something decent to get rid of Kruger.

i am really in that thought process since the beginning of the season and been ranting it. the hawks can not assume anyone will help them out of the kindness of their heart and the hawks now have to make some additional trade for the cap and b/c of their own rfa's and ufa's,

 

[LDF]

I think it's somewhere in the middle. It won't be a steep price ... but perhaps a 3rd round draft choice for Vegas to take Kruger off our hands. At worst, a late 2nd rounder.

And let's not make it like Kruger is just some warm body. He's contributing a lot to a very good team battling numerous injuries at forward.

The question is if he's worth $2.2mn/year vs. $3mn/year. It's not like he's vastly overpaid with a ton of years left on his contract.

many are assuming that it would be a draft pick, why not a prospects. it may not happen, but they can lets say ask for, schm or someone along that line. a young cost prospect in a elc contract.

 

[LDF]

You must not know Kruger's value. He plays against some of the toughest opponents, takes nearly half of the team's dzone faceoffs, and yet still has positive possession numbers. Plus, he has dragged around quite a few bumasss players over the years. You watch- a team like Florida will gladly take Kruger at 3 M per.

it doesn't matter about a value of what he is worth to chi, it is the value of what will it take to entice a team/vegas to take him.

i am been ranting for weeks about trading them now, b/c of the unexpected things might happen. but to make sure that cap is fixed. do not wait and then be placed behind the eight ball, where the team will then need to pay some team to help them out.

if done right, the hawks still may damage their chances in the playoff.

 

[mikee]

it doesn't matter about a value of what he is worth to chi, it is the value of what will it take to entice a team/vegas to take him.

i am been ranting for weeks about trading them now, b/c of the unexpected things might happen. but to make sure that cap is fixed. do not wait and then be placed behind the eight ball, where the team will then need to pay some team to help them out.

if done right, the hawks still may damage their chances in the playoff.

The Hawks are keeping an eye on next year's cap, of course, but they are focused on winning a cup this season. Kruger helps them do that.

The Hawks trade player(s) every offseason. Bowman isn't going panic all of a sudden and move a guy that can help them win this year because he MIGHT get squeezed in the offseason. From my perspective, this could actually be the easiest offseason the Blackhawks have in a long, long time. They only have to move 1 guy, in an offseason with an expansion team (and corresponding draft) that gives them even more flexibility in how/when to move him.

 

[ClydeLee]

it doesn't matter about a value of what he is worth to chi, it is the value of what will it take to entice a team/vegas to take him.

i am been ranting for weeks about trading them now, b/c of the unexpected things might happen. but to make sure that cap is fixed. do not wait and then be placed behind the eight ball, where the team will then need to pay some team to help them out.

if done right, the hawks still may damage their chances in the playoff.

Which you conclude is negative value because??

Other teams have across the league currently and in previous seasons been comfortable having their teams defensive Pking center/wingers be paid over 3 million dollars. Even with less credentials, the Islanders currently have 2 in Cizikas/Clutterbuck, Boyd Gordon, Stajan(atthispointofforCalgary) and some others. It's not some automatic negative case

Now there is better deals out there if teams want them like the Nashville guy. If that is on the market for teams for whatever reason, it can be more attractive than this but it's not a hampering talent like bickell contract.

 

[LDF]

The Hawks are keeping an eye on next year's cap, of course, but they are focused on winning a cup this season. Kruger helps them do that.

The Hawks trade player(s) every offseason. Bowman isn't going panic all of a sudden and move a guy that can help them win this year because he MIGHT get squeezed in the offseason. From my perspective, this could actually be the easiest offseason the Blackhawks have in a long, long time. They only have to move 1 guy, in an offseason with an expansion team (and corresponding draft) that gives them even more flexibility in how/when to move him.

i can understand yours and many other posters opinion with regard to trading now.

but let me make my last comment on this subject, re the bold, win this yr, it is a very inexact phrase, b/c the meaning can have many different end values to make it right.

so i will take this as make the playoff and hopefully go for the SC, what happen if that does not happen, winning the SC. now the hawks has to sweeten any trade that involve moving a player|s| to fix that cap..... or for vegas to pick certain player|s|.

in that example, how does it sit with the fans of hawks to pay to make the trade, if vegas does not do what is hoped for.

 

[projexns]

There's also no shortage of good or potential filled young dmen because how many teams will even reach to protect their 4th dman with the 8 skaters option?

Actually quite a few fanbases talk about protecting a 4th d-man. The misconception people make is that protecting a 4th d-man means you lose protection on three forwards, but only one of those forwards can be taken.

We played Nashville last night and the talk with that team is that they would rather protect a 4th d-man and expose Wilson, Smith and Jarnkrok, knowing that they will still keep two of them PLUS the 4th d-man.

There are other teams like Anaheim however, who don't want to lose Manson in the expansion draft but protecting four d-men will expose Silfverberg. I would expect them to trade Vantanen for a very good forward and then protect 7-3-1 instead of 4-4-1.

The Islanders have five defencemen that need protection and will likely see movement from there. Detroit and Boston are two teams off the top of my head that are looking for upgrades on their blueline.

In comparisons to what will help a team that by all acounts wants to be competitive right away, a trustable defensive PKing center or a RH cheap 3rd pair defensemen or a prospect RH defensemen in Pokka?

This is where you need to go through the exercise of looking at it from a broader perspective than just what you would hope for from a Blackhawks point-of-view.

Detroit could very well have either or both of Glendenning/Helm available.

Tampa could very well have either or both of Killorn/Namestinkov available.

Winnipeg is one of those teams with 4 good d-men, thus protecting only four forwards, but an event like a Trouba trade could have protecting seven but still leaving a young checking center like Lowry or Copp available. If they stay with 4 d-men, Perreault might be available.

Jarnok or Wilson from Nashville as mentioned above.

Spooner from Boston. Lindberg from the Rangers. Tierney from San Jose.

All kinds of options at center other than Kruger @ $3 million.

They don't NEED Kruger for hitting the capfloor... they also don't NEED a cheap 1 year left at 850K on the contract defender like TVR. But of actual impact on the team value Kruger to almost anyone would probably be concluded as having a better impact.

Actually, a young, cheap RHD like TVR is one of the most valuable commodities that Vegas can acquire. They aren't allowed to draft any players young enough to be waiver exempt. They will have to accumulate picks and prospects by trading surplus assets beyond the 23-man roster they are going to put on the ice.

Young d-men are the most valuable trading chips they can accumulate, and it's not as if there's going to be a whole bunch of top 4 d-men being exposed. I would expect Vegas to draft about a dozen defencemen and trade the surplus for futures like picks and prospects.

Chicago will be a prime target with which Vegas can acquire futures since the Panarin contract means that Kruger has to be traded and the 'Hawks have zero leverage.

If I'm Vegas TVR (or Pokka) is my selection. If the 'Hawks then want to negotiate taking Kruger off their hands, I would want a 2nd-round pick and a decent prospect. If I don't get it, it's an easy deal to walk away from.

 

[Pez68]

No I want to convince you that Canadians and Americans are better to have on your squad than a bunch of Russians.

No, the better players are better to have on your squad.... Doesn't matter where they are from.

 

[LDF]

Actually quite a few fanbases talk about protecting a 4th d-man. The misconception people make is that protecting a 4th d-man means you lose protection on three forwards, but only one of those forwards can be taken.

We played Nashville last night and the talk with that team is that they would rather protect a 4th d-man and expose Wilson, Smith and Jarnkrok, knowing that they will still keep two of them PLUS the 4th d-man.

There are other teams like Anaheim however, who don't want to lose Manson in the expansion draft but protecting four d-men will expose Silfverberg. I would expect them to trade Vantanen for a very good forward and then protect 7-3-1 instead of 4-4-1.

The Islanders have five defencemen that need protection and will likely see movement from there. Detroit and Boston are two teams off the top of my head that are looking for upgrades on their blueline.



This is where you need to go through the exercise of looking at it from a broader perspective than just what you would hope for from a Blackhawks point-of-view.

Detroit could very well have either or both of Glendenning/Helm available.

Tampa could very well have either or both of Killorn/Namestinkov available.

Winnipeg is one of those teams with 4 good d-men, thus protecting only four forwards, but an event like a Trouba trade could have protecting seven but still leaving a young checking center like Lowry or Copp available. If they stay with 4 d-men, Perreault might be available.

Jarnok or Wilson from Nashville as mentioned above.

Spooner from Boston. Lindberg from the Rangers. Tierney from San Jose.

All kinds of options at center other than Kruger @ $3 million.



Actually, a young, cheap RHD like TVR is one of the most valuable commodities that Vegas can acquire. They aren't allowed to draft any players young enough to be waiver exempt. They will have to accumulate picks and prospects by trading surplus assets beyond the 23-man roster they are going to put on the ice.

Young d-men are the most valuable trading chips they can accumulate, and it's not as if there's going to be a whole bunch of top 4 d-men being exposed. I would expect Vegas to draft about a dozen defencemen and trade the surplus for futures like picks and prospects.

Chicago will be a prime target with which Vegas can acquire futures since the Panarin contract means that Kruger has to be traded and the 'Hawks have zero leverage.

If I'm Vegas TVR (or Pokka) is my selection. If the 'Hawks then want to negotiate taking Kruger off their hands, I would want a 2nd-round pick and a decent prospect. If I don't get it, it's an easy deal to walk away from.

excellent examples all across ....

 

[LDF]

Which you conclude is negative value because?? again, why would any team be willing to help out the hawks without fair compensation to do so, everything has a cost.

Other teams have across the league currently and in previous seasons been comfortable having their teams defensive Pking center/wingers be paid over 3 million dollars. Even with less credentials, the Islanders currently have 2 in Cizikas/Clutterbuck, Boyd Gordon, Stajan(atthispointofforCalgary) and some others. It's not some automatic negative case

Now there is better deals out there if teams want them like the Nashville guy. If that is on the market for teams for whatever reason, it can be more attractive than this but it's not a hampering talent like bickell contract.

nice post

 

[mikee]

i can understand yours and many other posters opinion with regard to trading now.

but let me make my last comment on this subject, re the bold, win this yr, it is a very inexact phrase, b/c the meaning can have many different end values to make it right.

so i will take this as make the playoff and hopefully go for the SC, what happen if that does not happen, winning the SC. now the hawks has to sweeten any trade that involve moving a player|s| to fix that cap..... or for vegas to pick certain player|s|.

in that example, how does it sit with the fans of hawks to pay to make the trade, if vegas does not do what is hoped for.

We should be used to it at this point so... shrug. I don't expect much, if any return for Kruger, but I also don't for see any issue moving him. He is a productive and healthy defensive center, something every team needs/wants. His contract is slightly limiting in that not every team will be able to fit him under their cap, but plenty still can. Kruger is the type of player that fans undervalue, but coaches/GMs love. There will be a market.

As for how would I feel if the Hawks keep Kruger, go to the playoffs but don't win it, then have to trade him in the offseason? Again... shrug. This isn't a perfect team, or even a powerhouse team like we have seen in the past. But the core is still productive and the supporting cast, while not scoring much right now, is all young and still getting their feet wet in the NHL. There is a chance some will get better and be more productive come playoff time. They basically only need 1 or 2 young guys to step up and become secondary scoring threats. I'd rather keep Kruger and bet on young guys stepping up offensively to round out the team, then trade Kruger and then have to fill the void left by him and still be forced to count on 1 or 2 young guys improving to help secondary scoring.