C Elias Pettersson - Timra IK, Allsvenskan (2017, 5th, VAN)

[Siludin]

Exhibit A













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***
Evidently, you were excited about a lot of prospects yourself for the Sens that eventually busted as well. Not to say there weren't more subdued posts, there certainly were, but those opinions developed with more information as you observed your prospects more. What you are observing now is the initial hype that some fans get when something is new and fresh. The dust will settle as players develops.

Wow I wonder how long it took to dig up those posts...

 

[Black Noise]

Exhibit A

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***
Evidently, you were excited about a lot of prospects yourself for the Sens that eventually busted as well. Not to say there weren't more subdued posts, there certainly were, but those opinions developed with more information as you observed your prospects more. What you are observing now is the initial hype that some fans get when something is new and fresh. The dust will settle as players develops.

 

[PhilMick]

Exhibit A

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***
Evidently, you were excited about a lot of prospects yourself for the Sens that eventually busted as well. Not to say there weren't more subdued posts, there certainly were, but those opinions developed with more information as you observed your prospects more. What you are observing now is the initial hype that some fans get when something is new and fresh. The dust will settle as players develops.

Bah gawd that poster had a family!

lol I just noticed the typo in the text, ffs.

 

[Elias Pettersson]

Exhibit A

LOL get rekt Hale

 

[gretskidoo]

But keep believing that Pettersson is a steal at 5 based on a couple prospect camp scrimmages.

Believe it or not, he didn't start playing hockey last week.

 

[maaran]

Exhibit A













***




***
Evidently, you were excited about a lot of prospects yourself for the Sens that eventually busted as well. Not to say there weren't more subdued posts, there certainly were, but those opinions developed with more information as you observed your prospects more. What you are observing now is the initial hype that some fans get when something is new and fresh. The dust will settle as players develops.

This is great

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Good job Aqualung.
Now I'm shuddering thinking of some of my old posts that are still buried on here.

 

[Canucks LB]

Exhibit A






Dammmn






***




***
Evidently, you were excited about a lot of prospects yourself for the Sens that eventually busted as well. Not to say there weren't more subdued posts, there certainly were, but those opinions developed with more information as you observed your prospects more. What you are observing now is the initial hype that some fans get when something is new and fresh. The dust will settle as players develops.

Dammmmnnn

 

[Hale The Villain]

Evidently, you were excited about a lot of prospects yourself for the Sens that eventually busted as well. Not to say there weren't more subdued posts, there certainly were, but those opinions developed with more information as you observed your prospects more. What you are observing now is the initial hype that some fans get when something is new and fresh. The dust will settle as players develops.

I don't even want to know how long it took to dig up those posts. If the point was to point out that Sens fans tend to overrate prospects, I'd agree. I've gotten burned in the past with prospects I thought would end up great. It's made me more reserved in projecting prospects.

Having said this, the Sens have developed far more players than the Canucks in the past decade. A lot of Sens prospects have ended up better than expected. Very few Canucks prospect ended up better than expected. It's a lot more reasonable to expect great things from your prospects if your organization has an established track record of turning prospects into NHLers. Look at the NHL players produced by each team in the last decade:

Sens
Karlsson
Stone
Hoffman
Pageau
Silfverberg
Zibanejad
Smith
Ceci
Dzingel
Claesson
Wideman
Borowiecki
Lazar
Noesen
Puempel


Nucks
Horvat
Hutton
McCann
Forsling
Gaunce

See a difference?

No fan base overhypes prospects more than Canucks fans. Almost every one of their prospects has failed to meet the extremely high expectations placed on them by an over-enthused fan base over the past decade, and the enthusiasm hasn't slowed one bit, even after the utter failure of their team to develop players has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your post shows that other team's fans (including myself) tend to overrate the potential of their prospects as well, but it did not disprove my argument that the Canucks have had a larger number of prospects fail to meet expectations than any other team in the league. If you want to argue against that, be my guest.

 

[settinguptheplay]

I don't even want to know how long it took to dig up those posts. If the point was to point out that Sens fans tend to overrate prospects, I'd agree. I've gotten burned in the past with prospects I thought would end up great. It's made me more reserved in projecting prospects.

Having said this, the Sens have developed far more players than the Canucks in the past decade. A lot of Sens prospects have ended up better than expected. Very few Canucks prospect ended up better than expected. It's a lot more reasonable to expect great things from your prospects if your organization has an established track record of turning prospects into NHLers. Look at the NHL players produced by each team in the last decade:

Sens
Karlsson
Stone
Hoffman
Pageau
Silfverberg
Zibanejad
Smith
Ceci
Dzingel
Claesson
Wideman
Borowiecki
Lazar
Noesen
Puempel


Nucks
Horvat
Hutton
McCann
Forsling
Gaunce

See a difference?

No fan base overhypes prospects more than Canucks fans. Almost every one of their prospects has failed to meet the extremely high expectations placed on them by an over-enthused fan base over the past decade, and the enthusiasm hasn't slowed one bit, even after the utter failure of their team to develop players has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your post shows that other team's fans (including myself) tend to overrate the potential of their prospects as well, but it did not disprove my argument that the Canucks have had a larger number of prospects fail to meet expectations than any other team in the league. If you want to argue against that, be my guest.

Dude. Stop. Honestly. The hole you are digging just keeps getting deeper. Changing the goalposts does not make you look smart. Just desperate. All fan bases overrate their shiny new prospects. It is just that a couple of fan bases here are significantly larger than others. They will tend to have more vocal homers. But make no mistake. Everyone carries some guilt. The Vancouver forums are hard as **** on our prospects. To the point where it just isn't fun discussing them.We are constantly trashing our own prospects. You are free to think differently but I am also free to remind you that you are wrong.

 

[CanaFan]

I don't even want to know how long it took to dig up those posts. If the point was to point out that Sens fans tend to overrate prospects, I'd agree. I've gotten burned in the past with prospects I thought would end up great. It's made me more reserved in projecting prospects.

Having said this, the Sens have developed far more players than the Canucks in the past decade. A lot of Sens prospects have ended up better than expected. Very few Canucks prospect ended up better than expected. It's a lot more reasonable to expect great things from your prospects if your organization has an established track record of turning prospects into NHLers. Look at the NHL players produced by each team in the last decade:

Sens
Karlsson
Stone
Hoffman
Pageau
Silfverberg
Zibanejad
Smith
Ceci
Dzingel
Claesson
Wideman
Borowiecki
Lazar
Noesen
Puempel


Nucks
Horvat
Hutton
McCann
Forsling
Gaunce

See a difference?

No fan base overhypes prospects more than Canucks fans. Almost every one of their prospects has failed to meet the extremely high expectations placed on them by an over-enthused fan base over the past decade, and the enthusiasm hasn't slowed one bit, even after the utter failure of their team to develop players has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your post shows that other team's fans (including myself) tend to overrate the potential of their prospects as well, but it did not disprove my argument that the Canucks have had a larger number of prospects fail to meet expectations than any other team in the league. If you want to argue against that, be my guest.

I think the only difference here is you listing scrubs like Noesen (46 games), Puempel (79 games), and Borowiecki for Ottawa but not listing our busts and disappointments like Hodgson (328), Schroeder (144), Connauton (187) and weirdly left off guys still developing like Virtanen (57) and Tryamkin (79) for Vancouver.

Now this isn't to say our track record has been good - it's been terrible - but I see only one person writing a list with a bunch of filler and using it to demonstrate their team's "success".

 

[Elias Pettersson]

I don't even want to know how long it took to dig up those posts. If the point was to point out that Sens fans tend to overrate prospects, I'd agree. I've gotten burned in the past with prospects I thought would end up great. It's made me more reserved in projecting prospects.

Having said this, the Sens have developed far more players than the Canucks in the past decade. A lot of Sens prospects have ended up better than expected. Very few Canucks prospect ended up better than expected. It's a lot more reasonable to expect great things from your prospects if your organization has an established track record of turning prospects into NHLers. Look at the NHL players produced by each team in the last decade:

Sens
Karlsson
Stone
Hoffman
Pageau
Silfverberg
Zibanejad
Smith
Ceci
Dzingel
Claesson
Wideman
Borowiecki
Lazar
Noesen
Puempel


Nucks
Horvat
Hutton
McCann
Forsling
Gaunce

See a difference?

No fan base overhypes prospects more than Canucks fans. Almost every one of their prospects has failed to meet the extremely high expectations placed on them by an over-enthused fan base over the past decade, and the enthusiasm hasn't slowed one bit, even after the utter failure of their team to develop players has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your post shows that other team's fans (including myself) tend to overrate the potential of their prospects as well, but it did not disprove my argument that the Canucks have had a larger number of prospects fail to meet expectations than any other team in the league. If you want to argue against that, be my guest.

yeah sure, that's your original argument




It's a shame that the Senators are so much better at developing talent and yet still have the same number of cups as the Canucks.

 

[Superlative Soup]

Exhibit A













***




***
Evidently, you were excited about a lot of prospects yourself for the Sens that eventually busted as well. Not to say there weren't more subdued posts, there certainly were, but those opinions developed with more information as you observed your prospects more. What you are observing now is the initial hype that some fans get when something is new and fresh. The dust will settle as players develops.

Aqualung ain't playing no more

 

[settinguptheplay]

As for the topic. Does Pettersson have the skill to hit 90 points. I tend to think yes but realistically scoring is way down and 90 points is now elite territory. I can see the argument for it but I cannot see the justification.

I see 80 points as his realistic peak. If development goes well and he can add some strength. Certainly not a sure thing. If he does not bust I would say 60~75 points consistently. Would be pleased as can be with that.

 

[Siludin]

I don't even want to know how long it took to dig up those posts. If the point was to point out that Sens fans tend to overrate prospects, I'd agree. I've gotten burned in the past with prospects I thought would end up great. It's made me more reserved in projecting prospects.

Having said this, the Sens have developed far more players than the Canucks in the past decade. A lot of Sens prospects have ended up better than expected. Very few Canucks prospect ended up better than expected. It's a lot more reasonable to expect great things from your prospects if your organization has an established track record of turning prospects into NHLers. Look at the NHL players produced by each team in the last decade:

Sens
Karlsson
Stone
Hoffman
Pageau
Silfverberg
Zibanejad
Smith
Ceci
Dzingel
Claesson
Wideman
Borowiecki
Lazar
Noesen
Puempel


Nucks
Horvat
Hutton
McCann
Forsling
Gaunce

See a difference?

No fan base overhypes prospects more than Canucks fans. Almost every one of their prospects has failed to meet the extremely high expectations placed on them by an over-enthused fan base over the past decade, and the enthusiasm hasn't slowed one bit, even after the utter failure of their team to develop players has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your post shows that other team's fans (including myself) tend to overrate the potential of their prospects as well, but it did not disprove my argument that the Canucks have had a larger number of prospects fail to meet expectations than any other team in the league. If you want to argue against that, be my guest.

Conveniently leave out the fact that the Canucks were contending from 2008-2014 while Ottawa has been pretending since Heatley/Spezza/Alfredsson were a line, up until this year where Ottawa has been moving prospects for veterans while the Canucks have been stockpiling.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

80-90 points is a bit extreme, there are many ridiculously skilled guys in the league who have a tough time cracking 75 points in the modern NHL (Tavares, Tarasenko, Getzlaf, etc). Even if Pettersson becomes a 60-65 point player, that's pretty much a 1st liner in this day and age. Interesting to see how he develops over the next year, wouldn't be surprised if he's a full time Canuck by the start of the '18 season.

 

[Aqualung]

I don't even want to know how long it took to dig up those posts. If the point was to point out that Sens fans tend to overrate prospects, I'd agree. I've gotten burned in the past with prospects I thought would end up great. It's made me more reserved in projecting prospects.

That was my point... its pure hypocrisy on your part.

Having said this, the Sens have developed far more players than the Canucks in the past decade. A lot of Sens prospects have ended up better than expected. Very few Canucks prospect ended up better than expected. It's a lot more reasonable to expect great things from your prospects if your organization has an established track record of turning prospects into NHLers. Look at the NHL players produced by each team in the last decade:

Sens
Karlsson
Stone
Hoffman
Pageau
Silfverberg
Zibanejad
Smith
Ceci
Dzingel
Claesson
Wideman
Borowiecki
Lazar
Noesen
Puempel


Nucks
Horvat
Hutton
McCann
Forsling
Gaunce

See a difference?

We weren't comparing scouting or development pedigree, what is the point of this? Also you're missing a few Canucks if you think Puempel or Noesen are NHL caliber.

No fan base overhypes prospects more than Canucks fans. Almost every one of their prospects has failed to meet the extremely high expectations placed on them by an over-enthused fan base over the past decade, and the enthusiasm hasn't slowed one bit, even after the utter failure of their team to develop players has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

No fan base? Reasonable doubt? It's difficult to have a rational conversation if you cannot discuss without hyperbole. I am more than confident that you will find that most Canucks fans agree that their scouting and development are terrible. Yet you believe the handful who think the Canucks have the next great one is representative of the entire fan base?

Your post shows that other team's fans (including myself) tend to overrate the potential of their prospects as well, but it did not disprove my argument that the Canucks have had a larger number of prospects fail to meet expectations than any other team in the league. If you want to argue against that, be my guest.

It was your ridiculous position that Pettersson became the most overrated prospect and your sarcasm of the notion that he was considered a steal (like Rundblad?).

Also, as mentioned earlier I never argued Canucks are good at scouting or developing players, and wasn't the point either.

As for the "hype" part, if you want to find select fans that hype each of those aformentioned prospects unreasonably, I'm sure you will find a few. I can assure you that I can counter with as many, if not more, tempered or more realistic expectations of each prospect. Without evidence, however, suggesting that the extreme views of a few Canucks fans represents the whole is downright wrong and I will call you out on that. What you are seeing are a large vocal few of one of the largest fan base on this site and in the NHL.

 

[Smeagoal]

Didn't take long for Pettersson to become the most overrated prospect in the game.

You'd think Canucks fans would be a bit more reserved after previous hyped prospects Hodgson, Schroeder, Shinkaruk, McCann, Virtanen, Jensen, Gaunce, Cassels, Corrado, Rodin and even Juolevi have disappointed and haven't come close to meeting the ridiculous expectations placed upon them.

But keep believing that Pettersson is a steal at 5 based on a couple prospect camp scrimmages.

 

[me2]

80-90 points is a bit extreme, there are many ridiculously skilled guys in the league who have a tough time cracking 75 points in the modern NHL (Tavares, Tarasenko, Getzlaf, etc). Even if Pettersson becomes a 60-65 point player, that's pretty much a 1st liner in this day and age. Interesting to see how he develops over the next year, wouldn't be surprised if he's a full time Canuck by the start of the '18 season.

I have no problem with ppg as a ceiling. Will he make it, very unlikely, but some players do. If this was 2006 there would be people telling you Backstrom's ceiling is 60-70 points. 2003, 50-60 point ceiling for Getzlaf, 35-45 Kesler. Henrik Sedin hit 112 points, his ceiling would have been PPG. We just don't know who will disappoint (Yak, RNH) and who will exceed expectations.

Canucks will be very lucky if Petterssen turns out anywhere near as good as Backstrom, but he the potential, even if it isn't likely.

 

[elitepete]

80-90 points is a bit extreme, there are many ridiculously skilled guys in the league who have a tough time cracking 75 points in the modern NHL (Tavares, Tarasenko, Getzlaf, etc). Even if Pettersson becomes a 60-65 point player, that's pretty much a 1st liner in this day and age. Interesting to see how he develops over the next year, wouldn't be surprised if he's a full time Canuck by the start of the '18 season.

Only 1 guy said that.

 

[Canucks LB]

I don't even want to know how long it took to dig up those posts. If the point was to point out that Sens fans tend to overrate prospects, I'd agree. I've gotten burned in the past with prospects I thought would end up great. It's made me more reserved in projecting prospects.

Having said this, the Sens have developed far more players than the Canucks in the past decade. A lot of Sens prospects have ended up better than expected. Very few Canucks prospect ended up better than expected. It's a lot more reasonable to expect great things from your prospects if your organization has an established track record of turning prospects into NHLers. Look at the NHL players produced by each team in the last decade:

Sens
Karlsson
Stone
Hoffman
Pageau
Silfverberg
Zibanejad
Smith
Ceci
Dzingel
Claesson
Wideman
Borowiecki
Lazar
Noesen
Puempel


Nucks
Horvat
Hutton
McCann
Forsling
Gaunce

See a difference?

No fan base overhypes prospects more than Canucks fans. Almost every one of their prospects has failed to meet the extremely high expectations placed on them by an over-enthused fan base over the past decade, and the enthusiasm hasn't slowed one bit, even after the utter failure of their team to develop players has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your post shows that other team's fans (including myself) tend to overrate the potential of their prospects as well, but it did not disprove my argument that the Canucks have had a larger number of prospects fail to meet expectations than any other team in the league. If you want to argue against that, be my guest.

Dude, you got absolutely roasted, there is no reason what so ever to continue posting in this thread.

Just admit your defeat and move on.

 

[inthewings]

Hale getting absolutely roasted

 

[Hale The Villain]

That was my point... its pure hypocrisy on your part.



We weren't comparing scouting or development pedigree, what is the point of this?

My post was about Canucks fans overrating their prospects. The success of those prospects is directly tied into proving whether they were overrated or not. If their highly hyped prospects ended up becoming good players, it would provide justification for the hype. The track record shows that such hyped Canucks prospects over the years have almost all failed miserably.

Thinking that Sens prospects will end up turning into great players isn't unrealistic when their scouting staff has proven to be able to produce NHLers from all rounds in the draft. Thinking that Canucks prospects will do the same, when they've proven to be one of the worst teams in the league at drafting and developing prospects is foolish, which is exactly what my original post was pointing out.

It was you who created a strawman argument. As if somehow cherring picking my posts from 5+ years ago disproves my argument that Canucks fans generally tend to vastly overrated their prospects' potential.

Also you're missing a few Canucks if you think Puempel or Noesen are NHL caliber.

Puempel has a 1-way contract. Noesen played exclusively in the NHL as a Devil. Both put up good numbers in limited roles. What about them makes you think they aren't NHLers going forward?

I think I might have missed Connauton, another prospect hyped by Canucks fans as a steal that hasn't turned into anything special, but if Puempel and Noesen are to be removed from the list, so should Gaunce and Forsling, who haven't done a whole lot at the NHL level either. That would leave only 4 NHL players produced by the Canucks in a decade. Talk about failure.

No fan base? Reasonable doubt? It's difficult to have a rational conversation if you cannot discuss without hyperbole. I am more than confident that you will find that most Canucks fans agree that their scouting and development are terrible. Yet you believe the handful who think the Canucks have the next great one is representative of the entire fan base?

From my experience - no fanbase hypes their prospects like Vancouver. Maybe their fans are a bit more vocal, more numerous or more passionate than most. Whatever the reason, Canucks prospect tend to be overrated on HF.

It was your ridiculous position that Pettersson became the most overrated prospect and your sarcasm of the notion that he was considered a steal (like Rundblad?).

Also, as mentioned earlier I never argued Canucks are good at scouting or developing players, and wasn't the point either.

The difference between Pettersson and Rundblad is that Rundblad actually did something after being drafted to deserve massive hype. Kid had 50P in 55GP in the SHL a couple years after being drafted. Won the Swedish Norris trophy as a 20YR old.

Pettersson has impressed in a couple prospect scrimmages. It's far too early to consider him a steal, especially considering most reputable scouts considered him a reach at 5.

 

[blindpass]

My post was about Canucks fans overrating their prospects. The success of those prospects is directly tied into proving whether they were overrated or not. If their highly hyped prospects ended up becoming good players, it would provide justification for the hype. The track record shows that such hyped Canucks prospects over the years have almost all failed miserably.

Thinking that Sens prospects will end up turning into great players isn't unrealistic when their scouting staff has proven to be able to produce NHLers from all rounds in the draft. Thinking that Canucks prospects will do the same, when they've proven to be one of the worst teams in the league at drafting and developing prospects is foolish, which is exactly what my original post was pointing out.

It was you who created a strawman argument. As if somehow cherring picking my posts from 5+ years ago disproves my argument that Canucks fans generally tend to vastly overrated their prospects' potential.



Puempel has a 1-way contract. Noesen played exclusively in the NHL as a Devil. Both put up good numbers in limited roles. What about them makes you think they aren't NHLers going forward?

I think I might have missed Connauton, another prospect hyped by Canucks fans as a steal that hasn't turned into anything special, but if Puempel and Noesen are to be removed from the list, so should Gaunce and Forsling, who haven't done a whole lot at the NHL level either. That would leave only 4 NHL players produced by the Canucks in a decade. Talk about failure.



From my experience - no fanbase hypes their prospects like Vancouver. Maybe their fans are a bit more vocal, more numerous or more passionate than most. Whatever the reason, Canucks prospect tend to be overrated on HF.



The difference between Pettersson and Rundblad is that Rundblad actually did something after being drafted to deserve massive hype. Kid had 50P in 55GP in the SHL a couple years after being drafted. Won the Swedish Norris trophy as a 20YR old.

Pettersson has impressed in a couple prospect scrimmages. It's far too early to consider him a steal, especially considering most reputable scouts considered him a reach at 5.

Maybe do some worrying about Logan Brown instead of another team's prospects? (I'm a Sens fan too). Canucks recent drafting seems better than it had been, Boeser being a good example.

 

[elitepete]

My post was about Canucks fans overrating their prospects. The success of those prospects is directly tied into proving whether they were overrated or not. If their highly hyped prospects ended up becoming good players, it would provide justification for the hype. The track record shows that such hyped Canucks prospects over the years have almost all failed miserably.

Thinking that Sens prospects will end up turning into great players isn't unrealistic when their scouting staff has proven to be able to produce NHLers from all rounds in the draft. Thinking that Canucks prospects will do the same, when they've proven to be one of the worst teams in the league at drafting and developing prospects is foolish, which is exactly what my original post was pointing out.

It was you who created a strawman argument. As if somehow cherring picking my posts from 5+ years ago disproves my argument that Canucks fans generally tend to vastly overrated their prospects' potential.



Puempel has a 1-way contract. Noesen played exclusively in the NHL as a Devil. Both put up good numbers in limited roles. What about them makes you think they aren't NHLers going forward?

I think I might have missed Connauton, another prospect hyped by Canucks fans as a steal that hasn't turned into anything special, but if Puempel and Noesen are to be removed from the list, so should Gaunce and Forsling, who haven't done a whole lot at the NHL level either. That would leave only 4 NHL players produced by the Canucks in a decade. Talk about failure.



From my experience - no fanbase hypes their prospects like Vancouver. Maybe their fans are a bit more vocal, more numerous or more passionate than most. Whatever the reason, Canucks prospect tend to be overrated on HF.



The difference between Pettersson and Rundblad is that Rundblad actually did something after being drafted to deserve massive hype. Kid had 50P in 55GP in the SHL a couple years after being drafted. Won the Swedish Norris trophy as a 20YR old.

Pettersson has impressed in a couple prospect scrimmages. It's far too early to consider him a steal, especially considering most reputable scouts considered him a reach at 5.

Massive hype? Lmao.