Confirmed with Link: Burakovsky to Colorado for COL 2nd and ARIZ 3rd (both 2020) and Scott Kosmachuk

Jags

Mildly Disturbed
May 5, 2016
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Central Florida
If I’m GMBM I’d be tempted to bank space until the deadline. It looks like our bottom six is a mess. At the same time I think we might be missing a top 3/4 D.

(snip)

I’d try and patch the remaining holes on the cheap and address anything bigger at the deadline unless something ideal comes along.

Nah, I don't think Mac is done. Whenever it looks like he's setting himself up to maybe be active in free agency, he usually adds via trade instead. Which always works out better, by the way. Free agency is super dodgy these days, and Mac has made some great trades for the kinds of assets he's been acquiring lately (cap space, 2nd/3rd picks). And moving away from major question marks -- How is Niskanen aging? Will Burakovsky ever pan out? -- gives us a chance to replace them with more certainty.

We've got the space now -- roughly $1.8m per to fill 5 spots if we go with 22 -- for him to do some exploring via trade and sign a hidden gem or two to fill out the bottom 6 as needed. It'd be nice if AJF (or another forward surprise) makes some noise in camp, and real nice if Stephenson can get his groove back.

Most of all, I'm hoping Reirden learned something from the sideshow our 4th line was last year. His constant tinkering undermined any chance any of those guys had to gel, contributing heavily IMO to the huge downturns in the performance of good players (DSP, Stephenson, Jaskin, etc.).
 
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Jags

Mildly Disturbed
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How soon we forget that people looked at the 2017-18 roster after the departures of Williams, Johansson, Schmidt, etc and said the exact same thing. The 2017-18 team was way less talented and the coach couldn’t get it done with the best roster in the league for two straight years so how could they realistically expect to complete for a Cup?

You're right, though our current situation is dodgier. Our bottom 6 is an offensive wasteland at the moment. I'm sure Mac has plans to remedy that and it'd be nice if the farm produced 1 or 2 guys this year.

I agree that it's not bleak. I have faith in our management. Fingers crossed.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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He's likely gone regardless so it's kinda moot, but these aspects of his game would be less glaring if he was playing on the 2nd line. And if you think about it, these are all things Oshie really excels at and lives for. Makes me wonder what that experiment may have looked like. I doubt it woulda been disastrous. As much as you may worry about Connolly bringing the 2nd line down, you'd have reason to hope Oshie could help get Eller and Bura's offensive games working more consistently..

I dont get it. You want Oshie on the 3rd line why? On the 2nd line Oshie has a clear role. He is the puck retriever. He can finish near the net but his primary job is first in on teh forecheck and to fight and win loose pucks in the corners. These are important things that neither Vrana nor Kuznetsov do well. It makes more sense to move Vrana down to the 3rd line because Hagelin is a puck retriever and Eller is solid at winning loose puck battles. What they lack is a finisher. Vrana is a finisher
 

Jags

Mildly Disturbed
May 5, 2016
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I dont get it. You want Oshie on the 3rd line why?

You're like a conversational terrorist. ;)

I don't want him on the 3rd line. I was replying in very clear context to something another poster said. Pretending you don't understand that context so you can be all dismissive and snarky serves no purpose.

So here it is for the cheap seats: Connolly put up 21 ES goals skating 3rd line minutes with linemates with lackluster offensive IQs. Backstrom centered our second line most of the time, not Kuznetsov. Oshie's production is rock solid no matter where you put him. Given the specifics of Charles Calvert's post, all I was saying is that it might have been interesting to see Connolly play some in that spot. Let's not pretend that there's not 5 or 10 games every year that Oshie's in the pressbox with an icepack on his noggin, so it wouldn't have had to be a big deal.

You can be closed-minded and fixate on situational nonsense, or you can concede that Backstrom and Connolly might have made an interesting pair for a stretch. With the money he's likely to command, someone's probably going to give Connolly a shot at top-6 role and some PP time. He's earned a look. And when Charles Calvert said that what he hasn't seen from Connolly is stuff that is more glaring in a 3rd-liner than a 2nd-liner, it's not crazy to point out that a guy likely to be anointed as a 2nd-liner on Monday might have actually played some 2nd-line minutes here. We all know Wilson and Oshie are better. A little conversational "What if?" scenario on a discussion forum shouldn't be so baffling for you.
 

Bieronymus Trotz

Registered User
Sep 4, 2017
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I will be the salmon. Unless BMac parlays this assets into a young scoring winger, I think we may miss ole Burky.

He had 12 goals every year - not bad if its what I suspect, on the low toi side. I will presume those were nearly all ESGs of course. I think he can pot 20 on a team able to utilize his best strengths and give him PP time. So in the grand scheme of hockey he would fairly easily be a 20 guy on a team that uses some LH shots on the PP.

Would you trade a "20 goal" young forward for 2 and a 3 and a UFA? I am not sold this is best for us with our cupboard so bare.
I don't necessarily agree, but this perspective should be getting a little more weight. Our expectations of a potential return for him had gotten so low that the actual return seemed great in comparison, but of course it's more likely than not that those picks amount to nothing. That said, they have value in other potential trades, and if a FA winger is signed who effectively replaces Burakovsky, they essentially didn't lose anything.
 
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illpucks

Registered User
May 26, 2011
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There's always the guy that deems the offseason a gigantic loss unless our team gets The Big Free Agent, only you're adding the spin that we'd need to land him AND get him to take a huge pay cut because "playing with Ovechkin" is somehow worth 3 or 4 million a year.

Get this idea out of your head. There's zero chance we could ever afford an $8m add, and ever zeroer of a chance that Panarin signs anywhere for $8m. Put the XBox controller down and back away slowly.

Carlson signed for 8 mill. I would say the players are pretty close in overall value.
 

Bananas

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Mar 26, 2007
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Nah, I don't think Mac is done. Whenever it looks like he's setting himself up to maybe be active in free agency, he usually adds via trade instead. Which always works out better, by the way. Free agency is super dodgy these days, and Mac has made some great trades for the kinds of assets he's been acquiring lately (cap space, 2nd/3rd picks). And moving away from major question marks -- How is Niskanen aging? Will Burakovsky ever pan out? -- gives us a chance to replace them with more certainty.

We've got the space now -- roughly $1.8m per to fill 5 spots if we go with 22 -- for him to do some exploring via trade and sign a hidden gem or two to fill out the bottom 6 as needed. It'd be nice if AJF (or another forward surprise) makes some noise in camp, and real nice if Stephenson can get his groove back.

Most of all, I'm hoping Reirden learned something from the sideshow our 4th line was last year. His constant tinkering undermined any chance any of those guys had to gel, contributing heavily IMO to the huge downturns in the performance of good players (DSP, Stephenson, Jaskin, etc.).

I suppose what I mean is I don’t necessarily see a 3 million dollar winger coming in to fill the 3rd line hole. I think there’s a good chance Mac hits the dumpster and Hershey to fill out the bottom 6 which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Also, I tend to agree that he’ll look to the trade market if he wants something more than that. The FA landscape for scoring wingers is not looking pretty.

If nothing advantageous comes along on the trade front there’s no reason to push all the way up to the cap just for the f*** of it. A little wiggle room would help once the deadline rolls around. Besides, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s the D that needs some love in the end.
 

Charles Calvert

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Jun 21, 2019
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If we don't get a FA to replace Bura and we fill in the 3rd line within who do we go with.
That bottom 6 is not looking very strong

We will get someone to fill the 3RW spot. It will not be Hershey.

I do believe the organization feels really strongly that Hershey guys need to step up and take the opportunities in the 4th.

Pilon, Malanstyn, AJF, and maybe Gersich are close. A great camp could propel any of them.
 

Vilica

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Jun 1, 2014
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You can be closed-minded and fixate on situational nonsense, or you can concede that Backstrom and Connolly might have made an interesting pair for a stretch. With the money he's likely to command, someone's probably going to give Connolly a shot at top-6 role and some PP time. He's earned a look. And when Charles Calvert said that what he hasn't seen from Connolly is stuff that is more glaring in a 3rd-liner than a 2nd-liner, it's not crazy to point out that a guy likely to be anointed as a 2nd-liner on Monday might have actually played some 2nd-line minutes here. We all know Wilson and Oshie are better. A little conversational "What if?" scenario on a discussion forum shouldn't be so baffling for you.

But we do have some results from when Connolly played higher in the lineup. Here's the with/without from the past 3 years for Connolly with Backstrom/Kuznetsov/Eller: Here

You can see that while the actual GF/GA numbers for Connolly with Backstrom and Kuznetsov were good (6/2 with 19, 19/12 with 92), their underlying numbers were not good. In contrast, you can see Eller without Connolly was underwater (30/46 without but 83/63 with Connolly), while maintaining respectable underlying numbers. This is related to one of Connolly's deficiencies, in that he needs his center to be the retriever on his line because his preference is to be the shooter. Neither Backstrom nor Kuznetsov are really retrievers, but they are high-end creators, so you get the positive goal differential numbers but crappy underlying numbers, while Eller is a retriever, so you get the good underlying numbers and the good results.

That's why if I'm Connolly's agent, I'm trying to push him to markets where he will be able to succeed, because he needs the correct sort of linemates to be part of a functional line. He can play in a top 6 role, but as a 3rd wheel to two strong retrievers/creators that he can finish their opportunities. That's why he worked to an extent in Boston with Marchand/Bergeron, but was replaced by Pastrnak for a truly elite line.
 
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HecticGlow

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Mar 14, 2016
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In terms of comparisons to losing Williams, Mojo and Schmidt - yes, it was a big departure. From a leadership/presence point of view, we lost Williams but not Oshie, Orpik or Beagle. Today, a greater number of those pillars are gone. Will they be replaced? Quite possibly. But team chemistry is one of the things the team has excelled at since 2016, and I’m just pointing out the risk that so many changes over two years will have significantly altered that chemistry.

But people also forget how much we struggled our way through most of the 17/18 regular season, with Orpik playing big minutes, a Chorney-Ness opening night third pairing, and Djoos and Bowey fighting to stay in the lineup through to the end of the playoffs. The team did incredibly well finding Kempny, and that was a game changer, but we can’t rely on them finding those gems. It wasn’t just the Caps pro scouting team and coaching staff’s hard work and skill that pulled that off - it also relied on the Hawks utterly failing to see what they had in him. We were, arguably, one moment of competence by the Hawks away from early playoff defeat.

Am I saying it can’t be done again? Of course not. Am I saying it won’t happen? Absolutely not. *But* overall, I’d say the caps were in a better position then than they are now. Mojo and Williams’ departures only worked because we had talented under-used guys who were finally ready to become meaningful top-6 fixtures - Wilson and Vrana - without removing anyone from the third line (Burky and Connolly).

This time around we’d be subtracting 10 and 65 without having a top forward prospect or gem-trapped-on-the-fourth-line to replace them with. Eller has struggled to find any kind of scoring touch when playing for long periods away from Connolly. Hagelin has some great - maybe elite - skills, just like Eller, but both of them lack a scoring touch without someone else to drive that line. At best, we find one UFA goal scorer to replace the two we’re losing - but GMBM’s comments today about looking for a ‘two way player’ makes me wonder whether they realise how the bottom six currently lacks a single goal scorer, and if we might see an Eller/Hagelin 2.0 appear to give us a defensively strong, high possession third line that cannot score.

If you’re going to talk to me about the cap forcing people out, explain why we signed Hags? He’s good at what he does, no doubt, and we need what he does. But he’s expensive for what he does, and we’ve never been prepared to spend that kind of money on an elite PKer before.

The other crucial difference between 2017-2018 and 2019-2020 turnovers is coaching. I’m not going to make a Trotz v Reirden argument (though that may be appropriate), but rather a skepticism that a Reid Cashman can turn Jensen and Gudas into the players we need them to be in the same way TR was able to with Niskanen, Kempny and the rookies. The same goes for forwards - look at how much Stephenson regressed between Lambert leaving and Scott Arniel entering.


In other words, I’m not disputing that roster turnover isn’t inevitable, or that we won’t end up with weaknesses whatever hard decisions are made. But when people talk about this being a roster that’s only a year away from winning a cup, it’s worth remembering how different it’s becoming, and that there’s a real risk that by replacing guys who excelled in their roles (e.g. 2017-2018 Niskanen, Beagle, Orpik, Connelly) with guys who will, hopefully, be cheaper and competent (Hagelin, Dowd, Jensen, Gudas, incoming UFA) we will have lost the edge that gave us a cup. And, as things stand, we lack any semblance of depth, at least up front. TR and company really will have to step their game up considerably.
 

Charles Calvert

Registered User
Jun 21, 2019
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445
You never win a Cup the same way. You don't win championships in a vacuum, and every time a team does it, they have a different path. That's true of one time winners and multiple Cup winners.

There isn't a single succesful team that doesn't lose elements of what make their teams good because of the cap. So saying that we're losing elements that let us win a Cup is a painfully obvious observation, that's sort of veiled critically of the Front Office. A front office that has continually made generally very good hockey decisions with only a few misteps.
 
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The Consiglieri

Registered User
Feb 19, 2007
268
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So unless I'm mistaken we're getting Colorado's '20 2nd, and Arizona's '20 3rd? Looks like this year that would have been essentially a mid 2nd and mid 3rd. I would really, really prefer we not trade them away. We really need to start building up the farm system for life w/o Ovy/Backstrom etc a few seasons down the road. Getting started earlier helps to cushion that eventual fall.
 

Holtbyisms

Matt Irwin is a legit talent
Jul 1, 2012
7,054
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Fine with this trade. I'll have fond memories of Bura and dreams of what he could have been. Sad he never really turned the corner, perhaps he really was just a product of McDavid. Decent picks for him, probably enough to move up and get a second pick in the 1st round(depending on the tiers of players in the draft next year if it's worth it) as long as we're not planning on trading the draft away for another impact player this off-season. I wouldn't put it past GMBM though. He goes for it every year.
 

Calicaps

NFA
Aug 3, 2006
22,053
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Almost Canada
I mean there's an argument the Caps player development failed him. He had flashes of brilliance at that level. When Kuznetsov started he was the same, inconsistent but flashes of brilliance at elite level.
Your own example belies your argument. Kuz (and also Wilson and Vrana) grew into excellent offensive players in the same system where Bura had his chances.

But regardless, he was NEVER going to be the next Backstrom.
 

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