Rumor: Buff to the Flyers

[KingBogo]

Sorry to go OT here but the Enstrom thing bothers me. While I get what your saying, and I do think bogo-toby would be a fine pair (if we traded buff, we’ve all seen the numbers on Buff-Toby) I just think the physical element is overblown/unimportant. I mean yes he could be "exploited due to size" but no more then 90% of the Dmen in this league can "be exploited due to hockey skills"


quick question

What do the:

07-08 Red wings
08-09 Red Wings
09-10 Black Hawks
09-10 Flyers
10-11 Bruins
11-12 NJ Devils

All have in common?


Well, other then playing in the Stanley Cup Final, they all carried a D-man under 5'11" and 195 lbs in their top 4. In the last 6 years, half of the teams that made the cup Final had a d-man like this.


The idea that Toby will "get exploited" is the same as "buff will get exploited due to conditioning" or "Stuart will get exploited due to being bad at hockey", as in clearly, talented players overcome size.


EDIT For topical purposes: I wouldnt' mind seeing Buff traded but at the same time I worry. Whether his aesthetics bother you or excite you, he's a huge part of this team, and replacing his dynamic ability will not happen via trade. We'd be getting likely two leser players (hopefully with th epotential to be similar in the future) and I just am not sure that really makes us a better team immediately. It's a tough call, but in the same vein if we appeared to be out of the picture by December, I'd be 100% on board with moving buff for some more long term assets.

Sorry for going back OT, but its been a long day at the office and I'm just catching up. Your first part of the post basically agreed with my post. Enstrom is a great hockey player but yes he can be exploited at times because of his size and lack of physical presence, and I agree most defense can be exploited because of some weakness as you mentioned. That's why the very few who have it all (skill both offensive and defensive, size and hockey sense) are so very very valuable. All 3 of our top 3 d-man have some combination of this but none the full package. The jury is still out on Trouba but I'm hopeful.

But back on topic while it may not be the ideal time to deal Buff he could potentially bring a return to make it worth while.

 

[Jeti]

grossman and laughton is a maybe but the rest is just too much from philly. im not that high on buff though

Grossman and Laughton is a definite no from the Jets. It's not nearly enough. Regardless of how some Jets fans feel Buff is a liability (I don't), at the very least they must recognize you have to re-distribute those minutes - without Buff (and without a top-4 in return) you're looking at a top-4 of bi-polar Bogo, oft-injured Enstrom, Clitsome (Clitnone?), and a rookie in Trouba; Not to mention that the Jets offense, especially the PP, has been anemic this year. Also, if everyone is right and Noel's strict North-South system is killing the teams offensive creativity, we need a wildcard rover like Buff

I'd at least be on the fence if it was Simmonds + Coburn, or the Schenn brothers..

 

[km204]

I would definitely be on board with the Jets trading Buff, even though I am a fan of his game. I would ask for Simmonds and Coburn. However this seems like more of an off season deal rather than an in season deal.

 

[pucka lucka]

I would definitely be on board with the Jets trading Buff, even though I am a fan of his game. I would ask for Simmonds and Coburn. However this seems like more of an off season deal rather than an in season deal.

Would you say Simmonds & Coburn are better, worse, about the same as James Neal & Matt Niskanen?

 

[wpgsilver]

Would you say Simmonds & Coburn are better, worse, about the same as James Neal & Matt Niskanen?

Though I agree with you, Neal and Niskanen weren't the same players they are today. Their values are considerably higher now than when that trade occurred.

 

[pucka lucka]

Though I agree with you, Neal and Niskanen weren't the same players they are today. Their values are considerably higher now than when that trade occurred.

Neal started scoring almost immediately. He already had 24, 27 and 21 in 59gm in his first 3 seasons. Niskanen had a 35 and 26 point season in his first 3. He had a rough season before he was traded. Wayne Simmonds has only hit 20 once. Coburn has probably had better seasons than Niskanen. Anyways you know what my point was. There is no way Chevy would trade Buff for Simmonds and Coburn, unless he is secretly on the Flyers payroll.

 

[Duke749]

Intresting Gary is using advanced stats?

By limiting chances Garret do you mean Toby "defends better without the puck" or spends less time defending because of his puck moving skills? I realize that no matter how it happens limiting chances is limiting chances but I have noticed this season that Toby is defending very well without the puck which is what comes to mind when I think of defending.

Let's be honest PS, it's both, and we both know this.

 

[Duke749]

With all due respect, Duke, I am well aware of your feelings about Zach Bogosian.

You must be kidding with the Stuart comment.

My feelings of Bogosian are that he is playing at a #3-4 level right now while Buff and Enstrom are playing like #1's. Although, Buff is playing too loose the last three games and seems to be forcing things offensively which probably has something to do with the fact that he has yet to score.

And like I said earlier, the results speak for themselves.

Btw, Bogo is not being as physically dominating as he can be. He has the size, skating, and strength to be an absolute menace, but just isn't for some reason. He is playing way too timid.

 

[garret9]

Intresting Gary is using advanced stats?

By limiting chances Garret do you mean Toby "defends better without the puck" or spends less time defending because of his puck moving skills? I realize that no matter how it happens limiting chances is limiting chances but I have noticed this season that Toby is defending very well without the puck which is what comes to mind when I think of defending.

Gary doesn't use advance stats, he just uses me as an research assistant to verify a Noel quote or a hunch once in a while.

Gary (and other WPG MSM types) are pretty open with hockey discussion and advance stats with me. Most they talk off public forum by PM's on twitter or emails (Lawless, Wiebe, Peacock, Hamilton), although some will mix private and public (Toth, Bauming, Billick, Williams).

This is why I will never promote statistics without using eyes / general hockey knowledge. There is no way in hell you could ever know why with the stats for this situation. None.

I'd say you are right that it's a combo of both.

 

[trebendan]

Would Voracek and Coburn for Buff & Seto work?

 

[Basalt13]

Would Voracek and Coburn for Buff & Seto work?

Not for us it wouldn't.

 

[Whileee]

Interesting... Chevy certainly didn't seem to quash the idea of a trade on H&L. He almost made me think that we should expect something, but I was reading between the lines.

 

[ps241]

Let's be honest PS, it's both, and we both know this.

My eye is telling me Toby is defending (without the puck) very well and much better this season. My eye is telling me Toby defends better when he is on the ice with Bogo but attacks better with Buff. However, on a scale of 1-10 (1 being not sure 10 being bet my life on it) I am feeling this at about a 2 level so that is why I am asking garret.

 

[ps241]

Interesting... Chevy certainly didn't seem to quash the idea of a trade on H&L. He almost made me think that we should expect something, but I was reading between the lines.

I think we would be pretty surprised at the amount of deals we have been close to pulling off over the past 12 months (especially at the trade deadline last year). It's a results driven business so effort is worth zero but I am not a fan of change for the sake of change and we are not overflowing with talent so if Chevy can make something happen great but I am patient and would prefer we get a good deal.

 

[ps241]

Gary doesn't use advance stats, he just uses me as an research assistant to verify a Noel quote or a hunch once in a while.

Gary (and other WPG MSM types) are pretty open with hockey discussion and advance stats with me. Most they talk off public forum by PM's on twitter or emails (Lawless, Wiebe, Peacock, Hamilton), although some will mix private and public (Toth, Bauming, Billick, Williams).

This is why I will never promote statistics without using eyes / general hockey knowledge. There is no way in hell you could ever know why with the stats for this situation. None.

I'd say you are right that it's a combo of both.

good post glad the guys are recognizing a good resource and using it.

 

[LadyJet26]

good post glad the guys are recognizing a good resource and using it.

Wiebe will use anyone that helps him on twitter. I've given him some pointers about what happened in games.

 

[Guerzy]

Here's a couple ideas i'd consider,

To Winnipeg: B. Schenn (3.11) + B. Coburn (4.5) + M. Talbot (1.75) = 9.36 million

To Philadelphia: D. Byfuglien (5.2) + D. Setoguchi (3) = 8.2 million

- Something else would likely have to go to Philly in this deal, a pick or prospect, perhaps? not quite sure...

- Getting a quality bottom 6 player in Talbot on a good contract would be big for this team. He could play 3rd line LW.

To Winnipeg: K. Versteeg (4.4 million)

To Florida: A. Burmistrov + O. Jokinen (4.4)

- Winnipeg gets a top 6 RW on contract for 2 more seasons after this season. Florida receives a quality young player, plus salary dump to make the deal work.

When all is said and done,

Kane - Schenn - Versteeg
Ladd - Little - Wheeler
Talbot - Scheifele - Frolik
Wright - Slater - Peluso/Halischuk/Tangradi/Thorburn

Enstrom - Bogosian
Coburn - Trouba
Stuart - Clitsome

Pavelec
Montoya

 

[Jet]

Not bad, a couple concerns:

I feel like Setoguchi is starting to play a lot better. I feel if we move him we are kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul. I actually think our bottom 6 has a good mix and if we could acquire Versteeg and B Schenn without losing Seto we would have a real 'top 9' here and it would be much harder to prevent us from scoring.

With below average goaltending it looks like we will need to try and outscore our opposition.

I also am not sold on Coburn. Forgive me because I don't know him extensively but I seem to remember him being a bit of an adventure in his own zone. I don't know if he is the type of defenseman we need to bring into our already chaotic at times D.

Finally, I like the Florida deal, but I wonder if that is something the Panthers would do? Mainly because Burmistrov (for all we know) is KHL property this year and next. If he had signed a 1 year deal it might be different.

 

[Guerzy]

Not bad, a couple concerns:

I feel like Setoguchi is starting to play a lot better. I feel if we move him we are kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul. I actually think our bottom 6 has a good mix and if we could acquire Versteeg and B Schenn without losing Seto we would have a real 'top 9' here and it would be much harder to prevent us from scoring.

With below average goaltending it looks like we will need to try and outscore our opposition.

I also am not sold on Coburn. Forgive me because I don't know him extensively but I seem to remember him being a bit of an adventure in his own zone. I don't know if he is the type of defenseman we need to bring into our already chaotic at times D.

Finally, I like the Florida deal, but I wonder if that is something the Panthers would do? Mainly because Burmistrov (for all we know) is KHL property this year and next. If he had signed a 1 year deal it might be different.

Just unsure we could make such a move without shedding salary in the process..

I could be mistaken, but I thought I read Burmistrov has an out-clause in his contract. Could be mistaken, though. But your point is valid, Jet, teams certainly may shy away from Burmistrov since he bolted to the KHL. That doesn't usually sit well with NHL GM's.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

To Winnipeg: K. Versteeg (4.4 million)

To Florida: A. Burmistrov + O. Jokinen (4.4)

- Winnipeg gets a top 6 RW on contract for 2 more seasons after this season. Florida receives a quality young player, plus salary dump to make the deal work.

Overpayment from the Jets, IMO. Especially with Versteeg's contract.

A proposal on the trade board that actually seemed to gain some traction with Florida fans was:

To Florida: D. Setoguchi (3.0)

To Winnipeg: K. Versteeg (4.4, Florida retains 750K of Versteeg's salary)

I'd even throw in a 3rd/4th round pick. Bottom line, I don't think it will take that much to get Versteeg out of Florida, especially with that contract of his.

 

[Guerzy]

I'd do that Versteeg deal, Hank.

 

[Benny27]

Coburn for the most part is inconsistent so while he would fit in with the rest of our D i wouldn't want him as a Buff replacement. Although it would give us another DMan to ***** about and drive us crazy!

 

[Basalt13]

Guerzy I dislike both your deals, imo to give up Buff and Seto, we need Voracek + Schenn in return.

 

[Jet]

Overpayment from the Jets, IMO. Especially with Versteeg's contract.

A proposal on the trade board that actually seemed to gain some traction with Florida fans was:



I'd even throw in a 3rd/4th round pick. Bottom line, I don't think it will take that much to get Versteeg out of Florida, especially with that contract of his.

I'd do that Versteeg deal, Hank.

Just so I can understand the rationale, what does Versteeg for Setoguchi do for us? What motivates the Panthers to do that deal?

 

[Guerzy]

Just so I can understand the rationale, what does Versteeg for Setoguchi do for us? What motivates the Panthers to do that deal?

Thought I read Florida was looking to strip things down, rid themselves of some contracts, no? Maybe not..

I think Versteeg would be a solid fit here. But I guess you never know until you try.