Bobby Orr Trophy?

[RoyalGremlin]

Norris for defensive dman award and the Orr for best offensive dman award.

And obviously a Gretzky award for the most assists in a season is necessary.

 

[CornerStone61]

Why does it have to be a slight at Karlsson? He's awesome and everyone agrees.

He would win the "Orr" trophy.

But he wouldn't win the Norris if there was an Orr.

That said I suppose all this is too complicated for people to accept.

The years he won the Norris it was deserved. He was great both offensively AND defensively last year. If the Orr trophy you're proposing was in place last year he would have won both.

This really is a tired idea, though I suppose it's complicated for people to accept that "all around ability" includes offense.

 

[Machinehead]

The issue I have with it is that it implies a defenseman who puts up the most points can't be the best overall. Why not? Many offensive defenseman are very good defensively including Karlsson.

 

[Jebus]

The issue I have with it is that it implies a defenseman who puts up the most points can't be the best overall. Why not? Many offensive defenseman are very good defensively including Karlsson.

I can see how anyone who thinks EK is even slightly above average defensively would think he's not only the best defenseman in the league but one of the top 3 or 4 players. However I cannot see how anyone thinks EK is even slightly above average defensively.

 

[Machinehead]

I can see how anyone who thinks EK is even slightly above average defensively would think he's not only the best defenseman in the league but one of the top 3 or 4 players. However I cannot see how anyone thinks EK is even slightly above average defensively.

The fact that the other team doesn't shoot when he's on the ice goes a long way.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Why do defencemen get 2 trophies? Why not 2 for goalies then?

There is 1 trophy specific to each position, and the rest can be won by anyone, the way it should be.

 

[Sureves]

Why does it have to be a slight at Karlsson? He's awesome and everyone agrees.

He would win the "Orr" trophy.

But he wouldn't win the Norris if there was an Orr.

That said I suppose all this is too complicated for people to accept.

He would have won the Orr and the Norris both in 2012 and 2015. I think that's the complicated part that YOU are having trouble accepting.

Which brings me back to my first post in this thread. All you're really saying is you don't think Karlsson should have won the Norris in 2012 and 2015.

Your thread isn't about awarding a trophy to the best offensive defenseman, it's about NOT awarding the Norris to the best offensive defenseman unless he meets your accepted standard of defensive-ability.

Again: the Norris goes to the best overall defenseman.

Working as intended.

 

[Jebus]

He would have won the Orr and the Norris both in 2012 and 2015. I think that's the complicated part that YOU are having trouble accepting.

Which brings me back to my first post in this thread. All you're really saying is you don't think Karlsson should have won the Norris in 2012 and 2015.

I can't speak for the original poster but I'm saying that. There wasn't anything wrong with the Norris until we crossed the Rubicon with EKs first victory. But this can't be news to because it's been an ongoing debate for the last 4 years. It is what it is now but let's not pretend that EK would win a trophy for top scoring defenseman AND best two-way defenseman.

 

[Machinehead]

He is the best all-around defenseman in the league. I don't know why that's so shocking. That's what the Norris is for.

 

[Knave]

Just give Karlsson a lifetime achievement award, ban him from winning the Norris ever again and let the peasants fight over the Norris. Gotta throw guys like Doughty some bread crumbs.

 

[Bladerunner]

Bobby Orr was phenomenal defensively. He was the embodiment of the Norris.

He was also a great offensive dman.

You act like having a trophy for top offensive dman named after Orr is some sort of a slur on #4

 

[Johnsie19]

I can't speak for the original poster but I'm saying that. There wasn't anything wrong with the Norris until we crossed the Rubicon with EKs first victory. But this can't be news to because it's been an ongoing debate for the last 4 years. It is what it is now but let's not pretend that EK would win a trophy for top scoring defenseman AND best two-way defenseman.

Exactly. The idea of the "Orr" would be that it would help make the Norris about who is actually the best defenseman in the league and not about would was the top scoring defenseman.

 

[Bladerunner]

Why do defencemen get 2 trophies? Why not 2 for goalies then?

There is 1 trophy specific to each position, and the rest can be won by anyone, the way it should be.

Realistically, bull.
Defensemen are cheated in the trophy dept. especially the major ones.

In f/s play goalies make up only 1/6 of a team. They have the Vezina and Jennings all to themselves and can compete for and win other major awards like the Hart/Lindsay.

Dmen, 2/6 of a team, only have the Norris to themselves, and lately seldom ever win the Hart/Lindsay.

Forwards, 3/6 of a team, have the Art Ross, Rocket, and Selke pretty much to themselves, and win their share of Hart/Lindsay's. Don't they also usually win minor awards like the Byng and Plus-Minus?

I've always though dmen should have another major award.

 

[Sureves]

Exactly. The idea of the "Orr" would be that it would help make the Norris about who is actually the best defenseman in the league and not about would was the top scoring defenseman.

The Norris is currently awarded to the best defenseman.

You just don't agree with who has won it, but guess what? That's your opinion, and clearly the voters don't agree with you.

And I don't agree with you.

But you couldn't have proven my original post im this thread more correct - which is funny because you thought my comment was unfair: you have zero interest in actually awarding a trophy to the best offensive defenseman.

This thread is masquerading as something it's not. It's a "Karlsson didn't deserve his Norris trophies" thread and you know it.

 

[Sureves]

I can't speak for the original poster but I'm saying that. There wasn't anything wrong with the Norris until we crossed the Rubicon with EKs first victory. But this can't be news to because it's been an ongoing debate for the last 4 years. It is what it is now but let's not pretend that EK would win a trophy for top scoring defenseman AND best two-way defenseman.

We don't have to pretend. He DID win it. Twice in fact.

 

[Johnsie19]

If you could pick one dman to start your franchise around I doubt Karlsson would even be in the top 3. Has his play translated into winning? I know that is subjective but really it hasn't so far.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Realistically, bull.
Defensemen are cheated in the trophy dept. especially the major ones.

In f/s play goalies make up only 1/6 of a team. They have the Vezina and Jennings all to themselves and can compete for and win other major awards like the Hart/Lindsay.

Dmen, 2/6 of a team, only have the Norris to themselves, and lately seldom ever win the Hart/Lindsay.

Forwards, 3/6 of a team, have the Art Ross, Rocket, and Selke pretty much to themselves, and win their share of Hart/Lindsay's. Don't they also usually win minor awards like the Byng and Plus-Minus?

I've always though dmen should have another major award.

The Jennings is a dumb award if you ask me, and fits right in with the Byng ie. not much to brag about (individually).

For Major trophies, goalies have the Vezina, Defencemen have the Norris, forward have the Selke, which is the least major of the three, and all have the Hart & Lindsay. Art Ross and Rocket is not really a "trophy" in the sense that it is voted on. They are simply a recognition that forwards are relied on to score more than defencemen are.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Why do people insist to give Karlsson 2 trophies?

 

[Bladerunner]

The Jennings is a dumb award if you ask me, and fits right in with the Byng ie. not much to brag about (individually).

For Major trophies, goalies have the Vezina, Defencemen have the Norris, forward have the Selke, which is the least major of the three, and all have the Hart & Lindsay. Art Ross and Rocket is not really a "trophy" in the sense that it is voted on. They are simply a recognition that forwards are relied on to score more than defencemen are.

So the Vezina is simply recognition that a goalie is relied on to, uh stop the puck... and the Norris is recognition that dmen are relied on to, uh play defense. Shucks, didn't realize what bogus awards they were

A trophy awarded to the goaltender(s) with the fewest goals scored against it in the regular season is "dumb"... and you pan the Art Ross and Rocket b/c it's not "voted on"

All you're doing is redefining what you consider a legit trophy/award to fit your belief. With your reasoning I could "prove" anything.

It can be more easily argued that "dumb" awards like the Jennings, and non trophy's like the Art Ross and Rocket are more legit since they're based on statistical performance not a group of people's voting views, some of which can be biased or ill-informed.

 

[Captain Bowie]

So the Vezina is simply recognition that a goalie is relied on to, uh stop the puck... and the Norris is recognition that dmen are relied on to, uh play defense. Shucks, didn't realize what bogus awards they were

So I guess you missed where I used "Major Awards" and "Norris/Vezina" in the same sentence?

A trophy awarded to the goaltender(s) with the fewest goals scored against it in the regular season is "dumb"... and you pan the Art Ross and Rocket b/c it's not "voted on"

All you're doing is redefining what you consider a legit trophy/award to fit your belief. With your reasoning I could "prove" anything.

I know, how silly of me to base my beliefs on.... what I believe. Jennings should be a TEAM award. Individually it doesn;t make much more sense the one for the top scorer on the highest scoring team, even if he isn't a top 10 scorer.

It can be more easily argued that "dumb" awards like the Jennings, and non trophy's like the Art Ross and Rocket are more legit since they're based on statistical performance not a group of people's voting views, some of which can be biased or ill-informed.

Feel free to argue that if that's what you believe. You may even make some good points.

 

[RoyalGremlin]

If the defence awards were split I see no reason why it couldn't possibly be both awarded to the same player given an exceptional season.

 

[SouthWest]

The Norris has always been essentially an offensively based award.

If you want a new award, make a selke for defencemen.

 

[Pip]

There is no need for another award for defensemen.

 

[Sens Rule]

James Norris was basically a gangster criminal. No better then Alan Eagleson or Harold Ballard. All the Norris clan were hockey gangsters for generations.

The NHL should just rename the Norris the Bobby Orr Trophy. If they want make a Doug Harvey trophy or the Rod Langway or Scott Stevens trophy for the best defensive defenceman.

Make a new trophy for best playmaker and give it to the assist leader and call it the Wayne Gretzky Trophy.

 

[Captain Bowie]

James Norris was basically a gangster criminal. No better then Alan Eagleson or Harold Ballard. All the Norris clan were hockey gangsters for generations.

The NHL should just rename the Norris the Bobby Orr Trophy. If they want make a Doug Harvey trophy or the Rod Langway or Scott Stevens trophy for the best defensive defenceman.

Make a new trophy for best playmaker and give it to the assist leader and call it the Wayne Gretzky Trophy.

Too many trophies as it is. No need for more.