Bobby Orr Trophy?

[Sureves]

Thread title should be: "Erik Karlsson should never have won the Norris"

Seriously OP, why bother trying to put this kind of slant on the point you are trying to make? Masquerading as an innovative idea (which it isn't by the way, tons of people have had this EXACT idea before) when it's really just a slam on Karlsson.

Let's not pretend you want to award Karlsson 2 trophies a year instead of 1. You are 100% suggesting he did not deserve the Norris in the past, which is 100% false.

You'll notice no Sens fans are pushing for this. If he isn't determined to be the best defenseman in the NHL this year, so be it: we don't need a "Bobby Orr" consolation trophy for him.

It's only the people who are crying that their choice for best defenseman didn't win in the past that are pushing for a "Bobby Orr" trophy.

No change is needed. The Norris goes to the best defenseman in the NHL for the season.

Period. End of Story.

 

[Johnsie19]

Thread title should be: "Erik Karlsson should never have won the Norris"

Seriously OP, why bother trying to put this kind of slant on the point you are trying to make? Masquerading as an innovative idea (which it isn't by the way, tons of people have had this EXACT idea before) when it's really just a slam on Karlsson.

Let's not pretend you want to award Karlsson 2 trophies a year instead of 1. You are 100% suggesting he did not deserve the Norris in the past, which is 100% false.

You'll notice no Sens fans are pushing for this. If he isn't determined to be the best defenseman in the NHL this year, so be it: we don't need a "Bobby Orr" consolation trophy for him.

It's only the people who are crying that their choice for best defenseman didn't win in the past that are pushing for a "Bobby Orr" trophy.

No change is needed. The Norris goes to the best defenseman in the NHL for the season.

Period. End of Story.

I said in the OP that I took the idea from another thread!

And I am a huge Karlsson fan! I don't overly have a problem with him winning the Norris again. The only point I'm trying to make is we are sort of forced into giving Karlsson the Norris because he is so offensively gifted but as we all know that is only half of the battle.

The criteria for the Norris is "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position" which I think most would probably agree isn't Karlsson.

But dude lighten up. I don't have any masquerading agendas, the way in which we have awarded the Norris in recent years I'd be glad to give it to Karlsson but I think we could look at an "Orr" type trophy that would celebrate an offensive defenseman either way.

And ya lastly I would suggest that he does not have the best all around ability at the position in the league but what he does offensively is truly remarkable.

 

[Sens Rule]

How do you figure that? Forwards have plenty of awards to target. Defenseman not so much.

Karlsson would win this trophy this season.

If we get another trophy it should be for most assists. Amazing it took like 80 years for a most goals trophy!

Sure a second defenceman trophy might be interesting. It is way less needed then an assists trophy. In my opinion.

 

[Barrie22]

I said in the OP that I took the idea from another thread!

And I am a huge Karlsson fan! I don't overly have a problem with him winning the Norris again. The only point I'm trying to make is we are sort of forced into giving Karlsson the Norris because he is so offensively gifted but as we all know that is only half of the battle.

The criteria for the Norris is "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position" which I think most would probably agree isn't Karlsson.

But dude lighten up. I don't have any masquerading agendas, the way in which we have awarded the Norris in recent years I'd be glad to give it to Karlsson but I think we could look at an "Orr" type trophy that would celebrate an offensive defenseman either way.

And ya lastly I would suggest that he does not have the best all around ability at the position in the league but what he does offensively is truly remarkable.

What has he done so remarkably better this year then say burns offensively?

Same can be said last year with subban and burns. (And no i am not suggesting burns and subban should of won).

 

[JustAHabFan]

Karlsson would win this trophy this season.

If we get another trophy it should be for most assists. Amazing it took like 80 years for a most goals trophy!

Sure a second defenceman trophy might be interesting. It is way less needed then an assists trophy. In my opinion.

Seriously why assists and not goals? The consensus is that goals is better than assists. For forward, we have the trophy for most goals but no trophy for most assists.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

I've posted this in pretty much every second defenseman trophy thread I could find

A lot of people complain that the Norris has lost credibility because it only goes to a high scoring defenseman these days. But if you look back at the Norris Trophy's history, you see that it has almost always gone to a top scoring defenseman.

Here are the rankings in points among defenseman since the Norris was created
1954-1 (6 in league)
1955-1 (13 in league)
1956-3
1957-1 (11 in league)
1958-2
1959-2
1960-7
1961-1
1962-6
1963-5
1964-1
1965-1 (8 in league)
1966-5
1967-4
1968-10
1969-1
1970-1 (Art Ross winner)
1971-1 (2 in league)
1972-1 (2 in league)
1973-1 (3 in league)
1974-1 (2 in league)
1975-1 (Art Ross winner)
1976-1
1977-1
1978-1 (5 in league)
1979-1 (7 in league)
1980-2
1981-1
1982-2
1983-46
1984-43
1985-1 (5 in league)
1986-1 (3 in league)
1987-1 (9 in league)
1988-3
1989-4
1990-3
1991-2
1992-1
1993-9
1994-1
1995-1 (6 in league)
1996-4
1997-1
1998-8
1999-1
2000-2
2001-2
2002-2
2003-3
2004-2
2006-1
2007-5
2008-1
2009-12
2010-2
2011-2
2012-1 (11 in league)
2013-1
2014-2
2015-1

1st in scoring: 31 winners
2nd and 3rd in scoring: 16 winners
4th and 5th in scoring: 6 winners
6th-10th in scoring: 5 winners
Outside of top ten in scoring: 3 winners

31 out of the 61 defenseman to win the Norris trophy lead all defenseman in scoring. That is 50.8%. 47 winners placed in the top three in scoring among defenseman, or 77%. 53 were top five, 86.9%.

There were only two years were a defenseman who wasn't top 15 in scoring won, and that was done by Rod Langway both times. The only other player not in the top ten was 12th and the was Chara, which was recent.

So why do people complain that the Norris goes to top scoring defenseman? It goes to the top scoring defenseman about 50% of the time, so why is it such a big problem?

 

[Barrie22]

I've posted this in pretty much every second defenseman trophy thread I could find

Put names to those winners and you will get the answer to the outroar of recent winners compared to the other years.

 

[Korpse]

Put names to those winners and you will get the answer to the outroar of recent winners compared to the other years.

You mean a 25 year old and a 26 year old have yet to build a legacy like that of Norris winners from 10+ years ago? Crazy.

 

[Barrie22]

You mean a 25 year old and a 26 year old have yet to build a legacy like that of Norris winners from 10+ years ago? Crazy.

No you will notice some of the best 2 way defensemen to ever play the game. Hmm what is missing from those 2 said players that have won the norris in the past few years?

 

[Caps8112]

No you will notice some of the best 2 way defensemen to ever play the game. Hmm what is missing from those 2 said players that have won the norris in the past few years?

Was about to say the same thing. When Lidstrom, Bourque, Blake did it they had lots of points but shockingly could also play defense at a really high level.

 

[darglor]

What I find funny is that usually the people pushing for one of these are trying to get someone like Doughty/Weber a Norris. The hilarity comes in when you realize that if you had a pure offense trophy, the other would naturally turn to pure defense and those guys wouldn't win either anyway. They're very good at both; they're not tops at either.

 

[Caps8112]

What I find funny is that usually the people pushing for one of these are trying to get someone like Doughty/Weber a Norris. The hilarity comes in when you realize that if you had a pure offense trophy, the other would naturally turn to pure defense and those guys wouldn't win either anyway. They're very good at both; they're not tops at either.

Thats fair to say but I would rather have Webers all around game minus the extra points karlsson scores. Karlson is amazing offenssively but if I were building a team I would pick Weber every single time. Just an opinion. I get that Sens fans love their guy.

 

[Sureves]

I said in the OP that I took the idea from another thread!

And I am a huge Karlsson fan! I don't overly have a problem with him winning the Norris again. The only point I'm trying to make is we are sort of forced into giving Karlsson the Norris because he is so offensively gifted but as we all know that is only half of the battle.

The criteria for the Norris is "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position" which I think most would probably agree isn't Karlsson.

But dude lighten up. I don't have any masquerading agendas, the way in which we have awarded the Norris in recent years I'd be glad to give it to Karlsson but I think we could look at an "Orr" type trophy that would celebrate an offensive defenseman either way.

And ya lastly I would suggest that he does not have the best all around ability at the position in the league but what he does offensively is truly remarkable.

Well I don't agree that the voters are forced to give him the Norris because of his offensive abilities. Just look at 2014 for example.

The voters look at the overall body of work of the defensemen an give it to the guy they think was best overall.

I don't see anything wrong with that, nor have I disagreed with any of the Norris winners since I started watching hockey.

I think a most assists award should be first on the docket.

 

[Sureves]

What I find funny is that usually the people pushing for one of these are trying to get someone like Doughty/Weber a Norris. The hilarity comes in when you realize that if you had a pure offense trophy, the other would naturally turn to pure defense and those guys wouldn't win either anyway. They're very good at both; they're not tops at either.

Yes, as I said, these threads should really just be titled "Stop giving Karlsson the Norris, he isn't good defensively".

Let's stop pretending that this thread is about awarding the defenseman who is the best offensively during a season and acknowledge that what this is really about is making sure that defenseman doesn't win the Norris.

I have yet to see a Sens fan who thinks there needs to be a best offensive defenseman of the year trophy that Karlsson can add to his trophy case.

 

[Korpse]

No you will notice some of the best 2 way defensemen to ever play the game. Hmm what is missing from those 2 said players that have won the norris in the past few years?

At those ages was Lidstrom regarded as one of the best 2 way defensmen to ever play?

You look back now after the fact and say they are some of the best two way players of all time. But in their early-mid 20's you wouldn't have said that about some.

 

[Barrie22]

At those ages was Lidstrom regarded as one of the best 2 way defensmen to ever play?

You look back now after the fact and say they are some of the best two way players of all time. But in their early-mid 20's you wouldn't have said that.

I would have said he was very very very good defensively in his early 20's. The only reason lidstrom never got any early norris trophies is because of other great defensive defensemen in pronger, bourque, chelios, leetch, macinnes, coffey.

Do you see a theme with the norris winners? They all bring something that subban and Karlsson just don't bring to the table.

 

[Caps8112]

I would have said he was very very very good defensively in his early 20's. The only reason lidstrom never got any early norris trophies is because of other great defensive defensemen in pronger, bourque, chelios, leetch, macinnes, coffey.

Do you see a theme with the norris winners? They all bring something that subban and Karlsson just don't bring to the table.

Yep I remember this back in the 90s. It was often talked about how many norris Lidstrom would win. He was regarded as one of the best very early in his career but Hall of famers were ahead of him.

 

[Korpse]

I would have said he was very very very good defensively in his early 20's. The only reason lidstrom never got any early norris trophies is because of other great defensive defensemen in pronger, bourque, chelios, leetch, macinnes, coffey.

Do you see a theme with the norris winners? They all bring something that subban and Karlsson just don't bring to the table.

A lot of those guys were regarded as offensive defensmen early in their careers and morphed into two way guys as their career progressed.

 

[Korpse]

Yep I remember this back in the 90s. It was often talked about how many norris Lidstrom would win. He was regarded as one of the best very early in his career but Hall of famers were ahead of him.

Yes at ages 27.28 and 29 he was runner up before winning his first at age 30 but before then he had yet to receive a 1st place vote.

 

[Barrie22]

A lot of those guys were regarded as offensive defensmen early in their careers and morphed into two way guys as their career progressed.

Funny how they never won the norris during those offensive years lol. Weird how they won once they found the 2 way game.

 

[nowhereman]

Coffey probably fits the bill for that type of award, more than Orr. Orr was an all-around beast and elite at every aspect of the position (hell, even fighting). Coffey was elite offensively but wasn't close to Orr defensively.

But I do sort of agree with this. The Norris seems to be all about points, these days. Though, I think Karlsson is unfairly maligned for his defensive issues. He's certainly competent enough in his own end and I'd probably only take Doughty and Mr. cheapshot Keith ahead of him right now.

 

[Korpse]

Coffey probably fits the bill for that type of award, more than Orr. Orr was an all-around beast and elite at every aspect of the position (hell, even fighting), unlike Karlsson (who I still love).

But I do sort of agree with this. The Norris seems to be all about points, these days.

So then we shall call it The Paul Coffey memorial trophy?

 

[Korpse]

Funny how they never won the norris during those offensive years lol. Weird how they won once they found the 2 way game.

Some of them yes. Where they the best two-way defensemen to ever play when they won?

 

[Six Assets]

No need to make the NHL a league full of participation trophies. We have enough useless trophies as is.

 

[Johnsie19]

Yes, as I said, these threads should really just be titled "Stop giving Karlsson the Norris, he isn't good defensively".

Let's stop pretending that this thread is about awarding the defenseman who is the best offensively during a season and acknowledge that what this is really about is making sure that defenseman doesn't win the Norris.

I have yet to see a Sens fan who thinks there needs to be a best offensive defenseman of the year trophy that Karlsson can add to his trophy case.

Why does it have to be a slight at Karlsson? He's awesome and everyone agrees.

He would win the "Orr" trophy.

But he wouldn't win the Norris if there was an Orr.

That said I suppose all this is too complicated for people to accept.