Blog Reports Holland Has Informed the Ilitches He's Stepping Down

[Dotter]

Nielsen vs 2 26-year-old centers we drafted.

Evens strength points -- Faceoff percentage -- Defensive Zone Faceoffs - vs cap hit
Nielsen 6-4-10 -- 47.2 -- 57.9 -- $5.25M (through 2022)
Sheahan 4-9-13 - 57.2 -- 67.2 -- $2.075M (through 17-18)
Jarnkrok 7-9-16 - 52.2 - 59.9 -- $2.00 (through 2022)

Nielsen might be better than any centers in GR right now (not saying much).
But who cares?
1) If we never traded for Legwand, we wouldn't have needed him because we'd have Jarnkrok.
2) Sheahan and Jarnkrok are both younger, far cheaper, better on faceoffs, and more productive despite more defensive zone deployment.

Neilsen is the better player out of all you have listed. And is especially a better 2-way player. Not sure what you're complaining about... It's not your money. It hasn't prevented Wings from signing anyone that matters. And it certainly won't prevent Red Wings from signing Larkin and Mantha. Not sure what all the fuss about.

Now if you wanted to tell me Sheahan and Jamkrok are better than Neilsen, I'll listen. But they are not. I live 30 minutes from Nashville and get to watch plenty of Preds games. JamKrok isn't on Neilsen's level... at all. And Sheahan? He was HFboards official whipping boy before being traded. Lol! He's got like 4 goals now... with (half?) being empty netters, whoopie!

 

[Redder Winger]

Neilsen is the better player out of all you have listed. And is especially a better 2-way player. Not sure what you're complaining about... It's not your money. It hasn't prevented Wings from signing anyone that matters. And it certainly won't prevent Red Wings from signing Larkin and Mantha. Not sure what all the fuss about.

Now if you wanted to tell me Sheahan and Jamkrok are better than Neilsen, I'll listen. But they are not. I live 30 minutes from Nashville and get to watch plenty of Preds games. JamKrok isn't on Neilsen's level... at all. And Sheahan? He was HFboards official whipping boy before being traded. Lol! He's got like 4 goals now... with (half?) being empty netters, whoopie!

Sure he is!
Nielsen is better than Jarnkrok and Sheahan even though
1) Nielsen is 3rd in points
2) Nielsen is 3rd in faceoff percentage
3) Nilsen is third in primary points
4) Nielsen is third in game score/60
5) Nielsen is third in points/60 and primary points/60
6) Nielsen is has a GA/60 of 2.43 -- tied with Sheahan and 1G/60 worse than Jarnkrok.
7) Nielsen has the lowest GF/60
8) Nielsen has the highest Ozone faceoff deployment
9) Nielsen has the lowest Ozone faceoff deployment.

I'm not sure what magical powers you derive from living near Nashville, which, don't get me wrong, is a nice city, but they don't override the facts.

The one area where Nielsen anyone beat is CF% - he is midway between Sheahan and Jarnkrok.

If they were all the same age and salary, it would be tough to argue Nielsen was better.
Since Nielsen is nearly 34, signed for 4 more years at 250% of what they make, it's a fool's errand to argue that the Wings are better off with Nielsen.

 

[Dotter]

Sure he is!
Nielsen is better than Jarnkrok and Sheahan even though
1) Nielsen is 3rd in points
2) Nielsen is 3rd in faceoff percentage
3) Nilsen is third in primary points
4) Nielsen is third in game score/60
5) Nielsen is third in points/60 and primary points/60
6) Nielsen is has a GA/60 of 2.43 -- tied with Sheahan and 1G/60 worse than Jarnkrok.
7) Nielsen has the lowest GF/60
8) Nielsen has the highest Ozone faceoff deployment
9) Nielsen has the lowest Ozone faceoff deployment.

I'm not sure what magical powers you derive from living near Nashville, which, don't get me wrong, is a nice city, but they don't override the facts.

The one area where Nielsen anyone beat is CF% - he is midway between Sheahan and Jarnkrok.

If they were all the same age and salary, it would be tough to argue Nielsen was better.
Since Nielsen is nearly 34, signed for 4 more years at 250% of what they make, it's a fool's errand to argue that the Wings are better off with Nielsen.

What magical powers do I have for me living near Nashville? None. Just the fact that I don't get the luxury of watching Preds play at my leisure, but is forced down my throat being that I live in city that is very excited about their hockey team. Don't get me wrong, I like the Preds, but even if I hated them I'd still be forced to watch them due to social pressure. Lol. Tennesse doesn't have much going on for Professional sports teams. Preds making it to the finals was a very big deal here.

And that brings me to another point. You're doing all this great stat watching (apparently not watching games, because if you did you'd see JanKrok isn't a world beater) but ironically the two players you are pointing out are playing for the top 2 teams in the NHL not even a year ago. Of course their stats should be better than a team that is likely going to finish bottom 3-5 under worse coaching. You strategically left that fact out.

 

[Red Stanley]

What magical powers do I have for me living near Nashville? None. Just the fact that I don't get the luxury of watching Preds play at my leisure, but is forced down my throat being that I live in city that is very excited about their hockey team. Don't get me wrong, I like the Preds, but even if I hated them I'd still be forced to watch them due to social pressure. Lol. Tennesse doesn't have much going on for Professional sports teams. Preds making it to the finals was a very big deal here.

And that brings me to another point. You're doing all this great stat watching (apparently not watching games, because if you did you'd see JanKrok isn't a world beater) but ironically the two players you are pointing out are playing for the top 2 teams in the NHL not even a year ago. Of course their stats should be better than a team that is likely going to finish bottom 3-5 under worse coaching. You strategically left that fact out.

I have much respect for Nashville and how they've managed to sustain their blue-collar work ethic through thick and thin over all these years. I'm glad they finally got some playoff success and recognition last year.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I will take your word for it

But i cant say i have seen many if any people say trade pavel datsyuk in 2012

That said, I assume you have more then just one name as evidence to support your position posters were advocating for a scorched earth policy AND who's
Removal from the lineup would have resulted in that

If Not, stop saying it

Look, I can go through and find the posts. No, trading Datsyuk has not been a popular opinion but it’s been around. Not re-signing Howard is another example and that’s something many people have expressed as a desired route. Scorched earh? No, but a clear and obvious downgrade at the goaltending position for no real reason other than ”let’s get worse deliberately”. Lots of advocates for avoiding 90% of the veteran signings (and trades) post -2010 too, as well as trading guys like Filppula and Hudler instead of losing them to UFA. Those who argue in hindsight about all the moves we could have made between 2010 and 2015 to land more draft picks and speed up the process towards being where we are now are, in essence, arguing we should have been deliberately hurting our roster back then in order to rebuild instead of competing. While there are many things we could have done to become better (sign better veterans, draft a little smarter, make more trades) during that time, there are many posters who argue from a ”we were done after 2010/2012, should have started a rebuild” position rather than a position of thinking we could have made a cup run if we played Nyquist instead of Cleary.

And I don’t know how one can’t see the slippery slope a team can end up on with just a few moves like avoiding some depth signings or trading 1-2 good players. Suddenly we miss the playoffs and sell more at the TDL. Then we’re bottom 10 and sell more. Scorched earth isn’t necessarily selling everyone at once, and arguing for moves that deliberately makes the team worse can’t be excused with ”I don’t want to tank, I just want us to get rid of our best goalie, best d-man and avoid signing some depth”. It’s the ”I’m just going to have one beer” of management strategies. We all know what comes next.

 

[jkutswings]

I advocated trading Datsyuk, but not in 2012. I thought the run was over after the Nashville series, but I wanted to trade him after the Chicago series, thinking to maximize the return while value was high.

It was immensely unpopular as a suggestion, and I'm not aware of anybody else proposing it, but it's not fiction that people are saying it occurred.

Nevertheless, the team is where it is, and we move forward. Hopefully with a shrewd trade deadline and an even more fortunate draft.

 

[Winger98]

I wasn't against moving Datsyuk, but this was back in 04? 05? I didn't think he could stay healthy enough to be the same force he was in the regular season. And I think that played out to some degree. We would never have gotten enough value out of moving him, though. I'm not sure I'd ever have been entirely against moving him, though.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Look, I can go through and find the posts. No, trading Datsyuk has not been a popular opinion but it’s been around. Not re-signing Howard is another example and that’s something many people have expressed as a desired route. Scorched earh? No, but a clear and obvious downgrade at the goaltending position for no real reason other than ”let’s get worse deliberately”. Lots of advocates for avoiding 90% of the veteran signings (and trades) post -2010 too, as well as trading guys like Filppula and Hudler instead of losing them to UFA. Those who argue in hindsight about all the moves we could have made between 2010 and 2015 to land more draft picks and speed up the process towards being where we are now are, in essence, arguing we should have been deliberately hurting our roster back then in order to rebuild instead of competing. While there are many things we could have done to become better (sign better veterans, draft a little smarter, make more trades) during that time, there are many posters who argue from a ”we were done after 2010/2012, should have started a rebuild” position rather than a position of thinking we could have made a cup run if we played Nyquist instead of Cleary.

And I don’t know how one can’t see the slippery slope a team can end up on with just a few moves like avoiding some depth signings or trading 1-2 good players. Suddenly we miss the playoffs and sell more at the TDL. Then we’re bottom 10 and sell more. Scorched earth isn’t necessarily selling everyone at once, and arguing for moves that deliberately makes the team worse can’t be excused with ”I don’t want to tank, I just want us to get rid of our best goalie, best d-man and avoid signing some depth”. It’s the ”I’m just going to have one beer” of management strategies. We all know what comes next.

You keep saying people wanted a scorched earth policy, so prove it and defend it with actual examples otherwise stop saying it.

It's not conducive to actual conversation or debate.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

It also doesn't matter if the people you are directly responding to aren't advocating for those things.

Get to the subject matter and stop trying to generalize points. It makes you seem desperate because you don't have anything substantive to add to the specific conversation.

 

[Dotter]

I mentioned trading Lidstrom back in 2010 or 11 and I remember people wanted to jump through their computers to choke me. Lol.

I don't know if those same people don't post here anymore or if everyone is now "claiming" Ken Holland should have scorched earth after 2010/11/12. It's hard to hold anyone accountable because you can't go back in search that far.

But I do think anyone who wants to trade players on the current roster who still has a future here and are better than anything we can replace them with from the system, resulting in making the team worse, is "tanking".

Trading Green because his contract is about to expire is when you need to trade a player. Nobody in the system is coming in and pushing Neilsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Howard and etc out of a job. So no need to trade them. Trading them would be for the only purpose of tanking and not bettering the team.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

It also doesn't matter if the people you are directly responding to aren't advocating for those things.

Get to the subject matter and stop trying to generalize points. It makes you seem desperate because you don't have anything substantive to add to the specific conversation.

sorry but how do you have a thoughtful discussion if people throw out wild accusations or go so far over the edge in an attempt to ridicule a position?

scorched earth means trading away guys like datsyuk and zetterberg and kronwall for draft picks(like trading away or not resigning briere and drury and pomminville and miller) but nobody has ever advocated such a position, at least not in any numbers to form a collective opinion from

perhaps once we start only talking about actual things that happened or realistic things we could have done or should have done can the debate be more substantial

 

[ArGarBarGar]

sorry but how do you have a thoughtful discussion if people throw out wild accusations or go so far over the edge in an attempt to ridicule a position?

scorched earth means trading away guys like datsyuk and zetterberg and kronwall for draft picks(like trading away or not resigning briere and drury and pomminville and miller) but nobody has ever advocated such a position, at least not in any numbers to form a collective opinion from

perhaps once we start only talking about actual things that happened or realistic things we could have done or should have done can the debate be more substantial

I think you are misinterpreting the point I was making.

 

[HIFE]

Oh I don’t know. I think it’s like breaking both your legs (Lidstrom+Datsyuk), getting a massive head injury (brain-drain), suffering from a bad back (Z+Kronner decline) and the crutches you get (Kindl+Smith, etc) are made out of driftwood and break at first pressure, but then you complain about the papercut you suffered a few years back.

Except the legs broke because they fantasized two 35-40 y/o's could carry us like St. Christopher with an entire team on his shoulders. The worn out back? Players decline severely in their early to mid 30's. Only 3-4% of the NHL is 36 or older. To think a core that old can compete and to not have a strategy for their eventual retirement is insanity. Losing talented coaches/staff is inevitable but the crutches were hand chosen-they could be plastic bottles held together with hockey tape or steel rods, but that was on the Wings.

The excuses of bad luck and "...well in hindsight" can only cover so much of Holland's faulty decision-making . Weiss being injured, Samuelsson getting re-injured; Howard, Z, Datsyuk and Kronwall's injuries. Alfedsson and Richards on their last legs. The Brunner try-out was pretty much a waste. Our most recent TD pick-ups were weak. From the predictable and stale loyalty signings to the over-payment of 3/4 of our current roster the front office has made a lot more losing moves than productive ones. We can go on and on with examples. After a while the string of "bad luck" seems to feel more like a bad vibe in general.

As has been said a 1000 times a new voice from someone less attached to the "house that Holland built" will be a positive thing. Kenny also might enjoy tinkering with a fresh project like Seattle or wherever. Don't be afraid of change or so sad about Holland moving on- it's not like the guy is dying.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I think you are misinterpreting the point I was making.

well maybe I was....

 

[Winger98]

I mentioned trading Lidstrom back in 2010 or 11 and I remember people wanted to jump through their computers to choke me. Lol.

I don't know if those same people don't post here anymore or if everyone is now "claiming" Ken Holland should have scorched earth after 2010/11/12. It's hard to hold anyone accountable because you can't go back in search that far.

But I do think anyone who wants to trade players on the current roster who still has a future here and are better than anything we can replace them with from the system, resulting in making the team worse, is "tanking".

Trading Green because his contract is about to expire is when you need to trade a player. Nobody in the system is coming in and pushing Neilsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Howard and etc out of a job. So no need to trade them. Trading them would be for the only purpose of tanking and not bettering the team.

Also, I don't think we'd get much for them right now. We're either retaining salary, taking a weak return, taking something back we really don't want, or some combo. The likelihood of someone making it worth our while is pretty low, imo.

Our chance to take a different direction from these guys was when their deals were expiring last time. At this point, I'm more willing to just ride it out.

 

[MVPete96]

I know people hate Moss here but FYI here’s his newest blog post Signs Pointing to Ken Holland in Seattle – Detroit Sports Rag

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know people hate Moss here but FYI here’s his newest blog post Signs Pointing to Ken Holland in Seattle – Detroit Sports Rag

Better than the nightmare scenario where he goes to the Leafs this off-season and delivers the final touches and makes them a championship caliber team. Seattle has always made sense as a destination, same with the three Western Canada teams if the GM spot was to free up, I doubt he would go to Winnipeg which is why I didn't say four.

If he does leave it has been a wonderful ride. An absolute giant within the history of the organization and one of the greatest GMs in NHL history. It is a shame it has ended the way it has, but his impact on the team I love has been immense. Seattle would be my second favorite team in the league instantly.

I remain hopeful that he will have some role within the organization. However, I agree that it shouldn't be at the GM level anymore assuming we have actual targets lined up from outside of the organization to take over. If Holland winds up in another city and I am stuck with Ryan Martin... I will turn into the angriest poster going around here. They better have a plan if they are moving on.

 

[Electric Eric]

Listening to the podcast Puck Soup and both Craig Custance and Greg Wyshynski talked about rumors that say Ken and the Canucks talking.

Around the 1:05 mark if I remember correctly.

 

[HIFE]

Holland to Vancouver would be hysterical. We should just swap managers.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Listening to the podcast Puck Soup and both Craig Custance and Greg Wyshynski talked about rumors that say Ken and the Canucks talking.

Around the 1:05 mark if I remember correctly.

And....

 

[Ezekial]

Listening to the podcast Puck Soup and both Craig Custance and Greg Wyshynski talked about rumors that say Ken and the Canucks talking.

Around the 1:05 mark if I remember correctly.

My nucks fan friend told me Jeff Moss reported that a couple weeks ago. I told him Moss was a hack, it made him feel better.

 

[Henkka]

I know people hate Moss here but FYI here’s his newest blog post Signs Pointing to Ken Holland in Seattle – Detroit Sports Rag

Nice article. Now I really want Holland going to Seattle.

 

[Redder Winger]

I'm not opposed to Toronto winning anymore.
There's honestly not a team in the NHL that I hate anymore.

 

[jkutswings]

Looks like Vancouver is definitely not an option any longer:

Canucks sign GM Benning to multi-year extension - Article - TSN

 

[ShelbyZ]

Looks like Vancouver is definitely not an option any longer:

Canucks sign GM Benning to multi-year extension - Article - TSN

Likely foreshadowing what happens here in Detroit.