Blog Reports Holland Has Informed the Ilitches He's Stepping Down

[ArGarBarGar]

It's amazing that we can cry about trading away Jarnkrok and Janmark and their 21 and 23 points
And also view guys like Abdelkader, Tatar, and Nyquist as zero value or negative value to the team.

It's amazing that we can make comparisons that don't exist.

Abdelkader was given a long term deal. Nobody is saying we should have given guys like Jarnkrok 7 years at that cap hit. He is getting paid 2 million a year to be a 3c that can kill penalties, and is scoring at a comparable rate to Abdelkader. That's a great value. Abdelkader was signed for a year longer and over twice as much in a physical role where he hasn't demonstrated a lot outside of a season and a half. And that contract is a major factor in why he has low value when it comes to a trade. This isn't even getting into the fact that Abdelkader is FOUR YEARS OLDER than Jarnkrok and FIVE YEARS OLDER than Janmark.

I also don't know where people have been saying Tatar and Nyquist have no value (unless you are taking a passing comment in a GDT as the opinion of these boards or something).

 

[Redder Winger]

It's amazing that we can cry about trading away Jarnkrok and Janmark and their 21 and 23 points
And also view guys like Abdelkader, Tatar, and Nyquist as zero value or negative value to the team.

Check out their contracts. Check out their age and ask yourself if you think they still have room to improve.

 

[izlez]

99% of how I judge a player is based on their ability to play hockey.

Sometimes I feel like y'all forget about that aspect altogether. It certainly gets lost down the list

 

[ArGarBarGar]

99% of how I judge a player is based on their ability to play hockey.

Sometimes I feel like y'all forget about that aspect altogether. It certainly gets lost down the list

Nobody is forgetting it. But when you can't even address the specific things being laid out in the posts you are responding to, it makes me wonder if you are even having this argument in good faith.

 

[Claypool]

You guys are complaining about losing some depth players. Listen to yourselves.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You guys are complaining about losing some depth players. Listen to yourselves.

I mean if you want to accept that we did lose decent talent then we won't have to keep arguing over it.

Or has Holland really not made a poor decision in the post-lockout era?

 

[kliq]

I mean if you want to accept that we did lose decent talent then we won't have to keep arguing over it.

Or has Holland really not made a poor decision in the post-lockout era?

100% agree, we did lose some decent talent, but it seems to be two extremes. One side saying it was meaningless, and another side saying it completely changed the trajectory of the team. My point was that these trades did sting a bit, but they aren't the reason why we are where we are today.

 

[jkutswings]

100% agree, we did lose some decent talent, but it seems to be two extremes. One side saying it was meaningless, and another side saying it completely changed the trajectory of the team. My point was that these trades did sting a bit, but they aren't the reason why we are where we are today.

Not by themselves, no. But I'd argue that it's part of the larger, 'death by a thousand cuts' issue.

A couple decent cheap players lost.
A handful of bad contracts signed.
A stretch of underprioritizing defense in the draft.
A few early picks that didn't pan out.
A couple LTIR candidates.

No 1 or 2 of these, by themselves, is a killer. But collectively, it's a very tall obstacle to surmount.

 

[kliq]

Not by themselves, no. But I'd argue that it's part of the larger, 'death by a thousand cuts' issue.

A couple decent cheap players lost.
A handful of bad contracts signed.
A stretch of underprioritizing defense in the draft.
A few early picks that didn't pan out.
A couple LTIR candidates.

No 1 or 2 of these, by themselves, is a killer. But collectively, it's a very tall obstacle to surmount.

For the record, my points were directed solely at the trades Holland made, if you want to add the bold into the equation, that is a completely different story.

If we are just talking the moves/bad contracts, I believe these things may have collectively hurt us, but they arent the reason for our decline. Our decline is because our #1 problem is we don't have elite talent.

None of these particular moves (Quincey/Cole/Zidlicky trades) would have changed that. Moves like this can be the difference between a team being a cup winner and being a team that falters, but they aren't the different between a team being a cup winner or being where we are now.

 

[Claypool]

I mean if you want to accept that we did lose decent talent then we won't have to keep arguing over it.

Or has Holland really not made a poor decision in the post-lockout era?

Trading b-level prospects to increase your odds of making the playoffs and maybe go on a run is great. I'll do it every season. They are depth players. No one cares. The team has an abundance of those.

Holland didn't listen to HFBoards and trade Larkin and Mantha for future Norris trophy winner Tyler Myers. There's the difference. Any key pieces this team drafted are still here. That's all that matters. Go through the rumor thread about Tyler Myers several years ago. It's embarrassing. I'm sure everyone has gone back to edit their posts so they don't look dumb.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I mean if you want to accept that we did lose decent talent then we won't have to keep arguing over it.

Or has Holland really not made a poor decision in the post-lockout era?

He has made several bad decisions throughout his tenure. Trading Janmark and Jarnkrok aren't near the top of the list, heck I don't even find them that troublesome in terms of the bad three or four years we are discussing now.

I sat there thinking pretty much the entire seven game series with Tampa how big of a difference Franzen and Cole would be to this team.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

For the record, my points were directed solely at the trades Holland made, if you want to add the bold into the equation, that is a completely different story.

If we are just talking the moves/bad contracts, I believe these things may have collectively hurt us, but they arent the reason for our decline. Our decline is because our #1 problem is we don't have elite talent.

None of these particular moves (Quincey/Cole/Zidlicky trades) would have changed that. Moves like this can be the difference between a team being a cup winner and being a team that falters, but they aren't the different between a team being a cup winner or being where we are now.

We shouldn't look at individual moves as the be-all end-all in how the team ends up now. They are all a part of the big picture and have varying degrees of influence as to how the team is structured now and where we go from here.

The way I see it, the moves that set the team back long-term outweigh those that set us forwards long-term. Players like Jarnkrok are just more obvious examples of where Holland's "win-now" mentality has lost us.

Trading b-level prospects to increase your odds of making the playoffs and maybe go on a run is great. I'll do it every season. They are depth players. No one cares. The team has an abundance of those.

Where are all our Jarnkrok level players? Janmark level?

And you would do it every season? Yikes.

Holland didn't listen to HFBoards and trade Larkin and Mantha for future Norris trophy winner Tyler Myers. There's the difference. Any key pieces this team drafted are still here. That's all that matters. Go through the rumor thread about Tyler Myers several years ago. It's embarrassing. I'm sure everyone has gone back to edit their posts so they don't look dumb.

And surprisingly we aren't 100% correct, either. Then again all you are doing is deflecting from the specific discussion to absolve Holland of any responsibility for the decisions he makes. Even when they turn out to be missteps.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

He has made several bad decisions throughout his tenure. Trading Janmark and Jarnkrok aren't near the top of the list, heck I don't even find them that troublesome in terms of the bad three or four years we are discussing now.

I sat there thinking pretty much the entire seven game series with Tampa how big of a difference Franzen and Cole would be to this team.

Heck. If kronwall doesn’t get that garbage suspsion.

Not sure cole would have done much. But franzen would have done well (wasn’t that the season he started off amazing before injury troubles again)

 

[Redder Winger]

100% agree, we did lose some decent talent, but it seems to be two extremes. One side saying it was meaningless, and another side saying it completely changed the trajectory of the team. My point was that these trades did sting a bit, but they aren't the reason why we are where we are today.

Death by a thousand cuts.

The Quincey trade, by itself wasn't a deathblow.
The Quincey contract, by itself, wasn't a deathblow.
The Janmark and Jarnkrok trades, by themselves, didn't kill us.
The Ericsson, Abby, and Helm deals, by themsevles, didn't kill us.
The Nielsen deal, by itself, didn't kill us.

But they're all examples of a GM going in the wrong f***ing direction. Step by step. Getting worse and worse.

At some point the big picture slaps you in the head.

 

[kliq]

We shouldn't look at individual moves as the be-all end-all in how the team ends up now. They are all a part of the big picture and have varying degrees of influence as to how the team is structured now and where we go from here.

The way I see it, the moves that set the team back long-term outweigh those that set us forwards long-term. Players like Jarnkrok are just more obvious examples of where Holland's "win-now" mentality has lost us.

Agreed for the most part, only thing I really disagree with is that I think the win now mentality came from ownership, specifically Mike Illitch. I dont think Holland has the type of power some people believe, but I admit I could be wrong. I bring up Jarnkrok because a move like that in hindsight did more harm then good, but the degree of harm IMO is very very small and would not have made a difference in the grand scheme of things.

This isnt directed at you as your post seems pretty rational, but I think the problem on this board is SOME people stop being objective and it becomes a situation where you are either a "Holland apologist" or a "Holland hater". People are either so bitter about this team, that they are unable to look at his moves objectively, or they are so blinded by loyalty, they will find a way to defend every move he makes. Now of course this doesn't apply to everyone, but personally I like to look at every move in an objective manner and assess it from there. When Holland makes a dumb signing, I will say it, when Holland makes a good move, I will point it out. I don't think there should be anything wrong with it.

Knowing where things went from 2012 on, of course in hindsight I wish the approach was different, but because of that I am not going to make every single move out to be the end of the world.

 

[kliq]

Death by a thousand cuts.

The Quincey trade, by itself wasn't a deathblow.
The Quincey contract, by itself, wasn't a deathblow.
The Janmark and Jarnkrok trades, by themselves, didn't kill us.
The Ericsson, Abby, and Helm deals, by themsevles, didn't kill us.
The Nielsen deal, by itself, didn't kill us.

But they're all examples of a GM going in the wrong ****ing direction. Step by step. Getting worse and worse.

At some point the big picture slaps you in the head.

I find it hard to discuss this with you, because I really think you fail to see my point. You seem to be taking the stance of "Anti Holland vs Pro Holland" but that's not the conversation I am trying to have.

This entire conversation started with me commenting on you saying this:

Ken Holland trades from 2012-15

First round plus Piche for Kyle Quincey
Eaves + Jarnkrok and a third for Legwand
Traded Backman, Janmark and a second for Cole
Traded a third for Zidlicky.

When Kyle Quincey for a first rounder is the BEST trade you made, youre having problems.

And even the Quincey trade sucked because it allowed Babcock to bench Smith and Kindl. And then Holland wasted $4M/Y on KFW on two subsequent contracts.
Of course - as soon as KFQ actually hit the market, the market showed what he was worth.
$1.25M/Y

Jarnkrok's 1.66/60 at even strength is a pretty nice number.
Especially considering he takes 25 percent faceoffs in the Ozone and 38 percent in the dzone.

Nielsen's points/60 is .83, by the way.
And really, Janrkok would have been the guy who made it pretty pointless to sign Nielsen.

My original comments were not about anything other then trades, you have since changed your narrative from "these trades screwed us" to "all the moves Holland has done have screwed us".

If you are going to say that every move Holland has done in the last 5 years has led the Wings to where they are now, then of course that is accurate, how could anyone argue it's not. My point again, was just that these trades that you highlighted would not have made a difference, which is true

You want to say re-building after Lidstrom retired would have made a difference, yes that would have changed the trajectory big time, you want to say not finding elite D through the draft hurt us big time, of course I would agree, but that was not what you said. I'm sure you will just counter with more moves he made, and we can just keep going in circles.

I'm not debating the big picture, I am debating the ramifications to a select few moves that this conversation started about.

 

[Dotter]

Trading b-level prospects to increase your odds of making the playoffs and maybe go on a run is great. I'll do it every season. They are depth players. No one cares. The team has an abundance of those.

Holland didn't listen to HFBoards and trade Larkin and Mantha for future Norris trophy winner Tyler Myers. There's the difference. Any key pieces this team drafted are still here. That's all that matters. Go through the rumor thread about Tyler Myers several years ago. It's embarrassing. I'm sure everyone has gone back to edit their posts so they don't look dumb.

Oh dang, I forgot about that. Since you jogged my memory, now I remember when the boards were all about trading everything and anything for good ol' Tyler Myers. Haha!

Could you imagine what this forum would be like today had KH traded those players?! Instead they are complaining about trading B-level player that many of us sometimes forget their names...

If those are the only complaints about "bad asset management", then I'll take it!! It could be worse. Imagine Erat for for the likes of Filip Forsberg. That would be much more worthy to cry about. Jankrok...? nope. Lol

 

[kliq]

Oh dang, I forgot about that. Since you jogged my memory, now I remember when the boards were all about trading everything and anything for good ol' Tyler Myers. Haha!

Could you imagine what this forum would be like today had KH traded those players?! Instead they are complaining about trading B-level player that many of us sometimes forget their names...

If those are the only complaints about "bad asset management", then I'll take it!! It could be worse. Imagine Erat for for the likes of Filip Forsberg. That would be much more worthy to cry about. Jankrok...? nope. Lol

That is a move that is a difference maker.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not by themselves, no. But I'd argue that it's part of the larger, 'death by a thousand cuts' issue.

Oh I don’t know. I think it’s like breaking both your legs (Lidstrom+Datsyuk), getting a massive head injury (brain-drain), suffering from a bad back (Z+Kronner decline) and the crutches you get (Kindl+Smith, etc) are made out of driftwood and break at first pressure, but then you complain about the papercut you suffered a few years back.

 

[Claypool]

Could you imagine what this forum would be like today had KH traded those players?! Instead they are complaining about trading B-level player that many of us sometimes forget their names...

Many here wanted Holland fired for losing Nestrasil, Ferraro and Marchenko to waivers. None of those players are even in the league anymore.

 

[jkutswings]

Yes. Those things - completely by themselves, with no other context or contributing factors - are why some people wanted Ken Holland fired.

Now I agree that some of the gripes have been overreactions. But don't portray things as if everything was 100% peachy, then a large chunk of fans grabbed pitchforks purely due to what you just referenced.

 

[Henkka]

Death by a thousand cuts..

But they're all examples of a GM going in the wrong ****ing direction. Step by step. Getting worse and worse.

At some point the big picture slaps you in the head.

And then what....?

You became next "Toronto", draft high, win the lottery, get Elite players and will be back to contending.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

And then what....?

You became next "Toronto", draft high, win the lottery, get Elite players and will be back to contending.

But as many have said it isn't a guaranteed or immediate thing, which is why people are frustrated that they are prolonging the start of that process. And trying to spend to the cap every year in the mean time.

 

[Redder Winger]

And then what....?

You became next "Toronto", draft high, win the lottery, get Elite players and will be back to contending.

That's not his plan.
If that was his plan, guys like Helm or Howard would be on the trade block.

His plan doesn't involve finishing in the bottom 5 in the league.

 

[Dotter]

That's not his plan.
If that was his plan, guys like Helm or Howard would be on the trade block.

His plan doesn't involve finishing in the bottom 5 in the league.

In a league where you can finish 13th and draft 2nd, or be by far the worse team in the NHL and miss out on drafting 1st overall for the best generational talent since Crosby, I am not sure tanking is the be all/end all way to rebuild.

That said, Wings are 1 point up from being 4th place. Signing those awesome hockey players that is suppose to be surefire way for them to be cup contenders sure aint' working, huh? Or maybe he knows they aren't good enough to help sway the standings much, but do help keep pressure off the likes of Zetterberg.

Seems like you're crying over nothing, really. Wings will likely be bottom 5 after they trade Mike Green and whoever else [depth player].

-- also should be noted that if you really want Ken Holland to tank the Red Wings, he would need to break Larkin and Mantha's legs and force them to LTIR since those two players have helped Detroit win many games. Sucks our youth is playing so well, huh!!!!??!!