Blog Reports Holland Has Informed the Ilitches He's Stepping Down

[ArGarBarGar]

-- also should be noted that if you really want Ken Holland to tank the Red Wings, he would need to break Larkin and Mantha's legs and force them to LTIR since those two players have helped Detroit win many games. Sucks our youth is playing so well, huh!!!!??!!

Nobody said that, and there is a very small minority of fans who disagree with Holland's approach AND believe the team should be flat out tanking for last place.

These comments are ridiculous and do not further discussion in a meaningful way.

 

[Winger98]

Tyler Myers would instantly be our #1D... .

That's not his plan.
If that was his plan, guys like Helm or Howard would be on the trade block.

His plan doesn't involve finishing in the bottom 5 in the league.

What sucks is that even if they were on the block we're not getting a whole lot in return.

 

[Redder Winger]

In a league where you can finish 13th and draft 2nd, or be by far the worse team in the NHL and miss out on drafting 1st overall for the best generational talent since Crosby, I am not sure tanking is the be all/end all way to rebuild.

That said, Wings are 1 point up from being 4th place. Signing those awesome hockey players that is suppose to be surefire way for them to be cup contenders sure aint' working, huh? Or maybe he knows they aren't good enough to help sway the standings much, but do help keep pressure off the likes of Zetterberg.

Seems like you're crying over nothing, really. Wings will likely be bottom 5 after they trade Mike Green and whoever else [depth player].

-- also should be noted that if you really want Ken Holland to tank the Red Wings, he would need to break Larkin and Mantha's legs and force them to LTIR since those two players have helped Detroit win many games. Sucks our youth is playing so well, huh!!!!??!!

Trade Green.
Trade Howard.
Trade any other 30+ veteran you can move.
If this team is still playing well, then that's a victory of its own.
That's the prescribed measure for the next 2 weeks.

 

[Dotter]

Nobody said that, and there is a very small minority of fans who disagree with Holland's approach AND believe the team should be flat out tanking for last place.

These comments are ridiculous and do not further discussion in a meaningful way.

No. the confusion is people don't understand the difference between 'rebuild' and 'tank'. Wings are undoubtedly rebuilding now, but many seem to be asking for a more aggressive tanking approach.

Once people are on the same page about what the mechanics of 'rebuilding' and 'tanking' are, the easier the discussions will be.

 

[Redder Winger]

Tyler Myers would instantly be our #1D... .



What sucks is that even if they were on the block we're not getting a whole lot in return.

Anything you could get for Helm would be a win.
I'd also like to get out of that Nielsen contract.

I think if you ate $2M you could get a decent return for Jimmy.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

No. the confusion is people don't understand the difference between 'rebuild' and 'tank'. Wings are undoubtedly rebuilding now, but many seem to be asking for a more aggressive tanking approach.

Once people are on the same page about what the mechanics of 'rebuilding' and 'tanking' are, the easier the discussions will be.

It seems like the problem stems from those who prefer to conflate any issue with the current rebuilding process with wanting to flat out tank the season.

Disagreeing with Holland's decision to sign Daley, for example, is not advocating for a full tank.

 

[Frk It]

So now we're just seeing who can build the biggest strawman?

 

[Dotter]

It seems like the problem stems from those who prefer to conflate any issue with the current rebuilding process with wanting to flat out tank the season.

Disagreeing with Holland's decision to sign Daley, for example, is not advocating for a full tank.

It's not disagreeing with signing one player. It seems several people advocate playing inferior 'kids' over the likes of vets who they think should be traded for picks. If you're not happy with Daley, that's one thing, but when you're mad that Kenny signed, for example, Frans Neilsen (who is much better than anyone we currently have in the system), then that is advocating tanking. Wanting to trade all the vets puts you in Sabres territory who were criticized for selling their vets too fast for the purpose of tanking, which has ultimately made them a laughing stock of a losing team despite having all that young talent on their roster. They are criticized for falling into the same black hole that Edmonton has fallen in and can't escape. To me, there is a fine line on how to 'rebuild', and tanking is certainly not the route anyone should ever want to take.

Not liking Daley and fans rather keeping Brendan Smith (or whoever) is a fine hockey discussion--who helps the team more. But to be mad that signing Daley is part of the reason why Detroit might not get to draft Dahlin is advocating tanking.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

It's not disagreeing with signing one player. It seems several people advocate playing inferior 'kids' over the likes of vets who they think should be traded for picks. If you're not happy with Daley, that's one thing, but when you're mad that Kenny signed, for example, Frans Neilsen (who is much better than anyone we currently have in the system), then that is advocating tanking. Wanting to trade all the vets puts you in Sabres territory who were criticized for selling their vets too fast for the purpose of tanking, which has ultimately made them a laughing stock of a losing team despite having all that young talent on their roster. They are criticized for falling into the same black hole that Edmonton has fallen in and can't escape. To me, there is a fine line on how to 'rebuild', and tanking is certainly not the route anyone should ever want to take.

How many people are frustrated with signing Frans Nielsen? How many people are advocating trading all the vets?

Not liking Daley and fans rather keeping Brendan Smith (or whoever) is a fine hockey discussion--who helps the team more. But to be mad that signing Daley is part of the reason why Detroit might not get to draft Dahlin is advocating tanking.

How many people are doing that?

 

[Dotter]

How many people are frustrated with signing Frans Nielsen? How many people are advocating trading all the vets?


How many people are doing that?

Simply scroll up 4 or 5 posts in this very thread. I don't have an exact number of how many, though. That would require a poll thread, I suppose.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Simply scroll up 4 or 5 posts in this very thread. I don't have an exact number of how many, though. That would require a poll thread, I suppose.

The point is it is very few, and not representative of those who generally disagree with Holland.

If someone makes a claim you don't like, address it specifically. Don't generalize when others are making other specific claims.

 

[Dotter]

The point is it is very few, and not representative of those who generally disagree with Holland.

If someone makes a claim you don't like, address it specifically. Don't generalize when others are making other specific claims.

I think it is much bigger than you think. If you're welcome to gauge it in a poll thread if you want. I personally don't feel comfortable creating threads on here.

 

[jkutswings]

Some advocate standing pat.
Some advocate trading only Green.
Some advocate trading Green and one or more other veteran players.

None of those options equate to scorched Earth, or tanking, or whatever other label anybody wants to apply.

There will still be players, both young and old, here after the deadline. And that's ok. But there's nothing wrong with checking into what the market bears for any players that won't be a key part of the solution down the road. And checking on 10 players doesn't mean you want to cut 10 guys from your roster. You might only WANT to deal one or two, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with gathering as much information as you can, and being as prepared as possible for the best returns at the deadline that you can muster.

 

[jkutswings]

Still rumors and speculation, but apparently Holland's name is coming up in both Seattle and Vancouver now:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0wAQ&usg=AOvVaw2xKDmUgB9q3hY5aoo1U_zV&ampcf=1

It could be an interesting carousel of NHL general managers this summer.

 

[Redder Winger]

but when you're mad that Kenny signed, for example, Frans Neilsen (who is much better than anyone we currently have in the system), then that is advocating tanking..

Nielsen vs 2 26-year-old centers we drafted.

Evens strength points -- Faceoff percentage -- Defensive Zone Faceoffs - vs cap hit
Nielsen 6-4-10 -- 47.2 -- 57.9 -- $5.25M (through 2022)
Sheahan 4-9-13 - 57.2 -- 67.2 -- $2.075M (through 17-18)
Jarnkrok 7-9-16 - 52.2 - 59.9 -- $2.00 (through 2022)

Nielsen might be better than any centers in GR right now (not saying much).
But who cares?
1) If we never traded for Legwand, we wouldn't have needed him because we'd have Jarnkrok.
2) Sheahan and Jarnkrok are both younger, far cheaper, better on faceoffs, and more productive despite more defensive zone deployment.

Nielsen's contract was just Ken Holland going through the f***ing motions.

Another stupid decision.
And this one cost us Sheahan.
Not a huge loss.

But still. Sheahan is playing in essentially the same role in Pittsburgh. He's cheaper. Younger. Bigger. More productive. Better on Faceoffs. Better Corsi. Better Plus minus.

Ken Holland went out and traded down in the draft to move Datsyuk's contract.
Presumably to compete for Stamkos.

I supported that. Because I think Stamkos, however unlikely it was he was leaving Tampa, could have been a huge difference maker in Detroit.

Add Stamkos to our team this year and we're probably competing with Toronto.

It's kind of a cheap and quick fix. But I get it. I can get behind that.

And we still got Cholowski and Hronek (I think there were better options at Cholo's pick, but whatever).

But when Stamkos wouldn't return Holland's calls, Ken Holland needed to show some restraint.

Going out and overpaying Nielsen was the wrong move.
Last year Nielsen turned in a 17-24-41 -19
This year he's on pace for about 19-10-29 -14

Who's he better than exactly?
If Nielsen were a UFA after this season, what kind of contract do you think he'd fetch.

I think we'd see like we saw with KFQ.
After two $4M/Y contracts with Generous Kenny, Quincey hit the market and signed for about $1.2M - the actual market value for a slowish veteran third-pairing defenseman.

 

[izlez]

Frans Nielson is the level of player that hits UFA

You are complaining about wasting money on him

When we could have saved money by keeping RILEY SHEAHAN

So that we could have money to sign players... at the level of Frans Nielson?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Some advocate standing pat.
Some advocate trading only Green.
Some advocate trading Green and one or more other veteran players.

None of those options equate to scorched Earth, or tanking, or whatever other label anybody wants to apply.

Most people are generally in agreement about the course the team should take from here. There are some difference in how aggressively people want to sell, how doomed people think we are, etc. but pretty much no one is even advocating standing pat. If we're out of the playoffs, we should sell. Not everything, not everyone, but guys like Green for sure.

The major differences in opinion comes down what has happened in the past. Some definitely argue the team should have embarked on a course post-2012 (in some cases even post-'09) that would have been quite similar to a scorched earth approach in terms of avoiding the re-signing of good players in favor of playing mediocre or straight up bad kids, selling veterans on expiring contracts even if you're in a playoff spot, moved players "while they still had value" etc.

It's pretty easy to say when we've organically become a bottom 5-10 team that "oh, I'm not in favor of tanking! absolutely not, no scorched earth strategy here!", because at this point minor moves like selling Green and a few depth players could be all it takes to move us firmly into the bottom 3-5 of the league. It doesn't change the fact that a lot of those posters who reject the "tank"-label have wanted us to reach this point much faster than we did.. and THAT is a strategy that has very few other denominations than tanking.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Frans Nielson is the level of player that hits UFA

You are complaining about wasting money on him

When we could have saved money by keeping RILEY SHEAHAN

So that we could have money to sign players... at the level of Frans Nielson?

No thats not what he is saying

He is saying dont sign Frans Nielsen period at this point (Or the previous two summers)

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Most people are generally in agreement about the course the team should take from here. There are some difference in how aggressively people want to sell, how doomed people think we are, etc. but pretty much no one is even advocating standing pat. If we're out of the playoffs, we should sell. Not everything, not everyone, but guys like Green for sure.

The major differences in opinion comes down what has happened in the past. Some definitely argue the team should have embarked on a course post-2012 (in some cases even post-'09) that would have been quite similar to a scorched earth approach in terms of avoiding the re-signing of good players in favor of playing mediocre or straight up bad kids, selling veterans on expiring contracts even if you're in a playoff spot, moved players "while they still had value" etc.

It's pretty easy to say when we've organically become a bottom 5-10 team that "oh, I'm not in favor of tanking! absolutely not, no scorched earth strategy here!", because at this point minor moves like selling Green and a few depth players could be all it takes to move us firmly into the bottom 3-5 of the league. It doesn't change the fact that a lot of those posters who reject the "tank"-label have wanted us to reach this point much faster than we did.. and THAT is a strategy that has very few other denominations than tanking.

Who have people advocated we trade that back in 2012 that would have equaled scorched earth?

Who did we sign or overpay that had we Not, would have meant scorched earth?

Let's define this, let's name names instead of just spewing empty rhetoric.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Who have people advocated we trade that back in 2012 that would have equaled scorched earth?

Datsyuk.

 

[Redder Winger]

Frans Nielson is the level of player that hits UFA

You are complaining about wasting money on him

When we could have saved money by keeping RILEY SHEAHAN

So that we could have money to sign players... at the level of Frans Nielson?

Maybe so we could have the cap space to trade for OEL.
Or to sign OEL, Doughty, Karlsson or Myers next year.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Datsyuk.

I think there is one or two members who wanted that. Even so, I at least understand it.

Most did not. Almost everyone wanted him to remain here.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Datsyuk.

I will take your word for it

But i cant say i have seen many if any people say trade pavel datsyuk in 2012

That said, I assume you have more then just one name as evidence to support your position posters were advocating for a scorched earth policy AND who's
Removal from the lineup would have resulted in that

If Not, stop saying it

 

[TCNorthstars]

Maybe so we could have the cap space to trade for OEL.
Or to sign OEL, Doughty, Karlsson or Myers next year.

Still probably wouldn't have had the assets to pull OEL. What makes you think the Wings can't sign one of OEL, Doughty, or Karlsson next year? Myers isn't even in the same ballpark as the others. Why did you include him?

 

[Dotter]

Frans Nielson is the level of player that hits UFA

You are complaining about wasting money on him

When we could have saved money by keeping RILEY SHEAHAN

So that we could have money to sign players... at the level of Frans Nielson?

Lol!