Player Discussion: Blake Wheeler on Situation in Minnesota - Read Mod note in OP

[KCjetsfan]

Problem with that is that it doesn't really work that well. The quality of care is so low and it increases taxes by such a large amount, that even in Finland companies provide private healthcare programs to employees. In Sweden, where COVID-19 is running rampant, a lot of people have gotten zero care. They look at the age of the person and if over a certain threshold give morphine instead that is guaranteed to kill them. In a perfect world yes, but I don't know if it could ever be realistic anywhere (with any degree of quality in the care). For life saving operations and such, even though prohibitively expensive, it's still worth it, but a 'free card' maybe not so much.
But this is off topic probably, my list was suggestions on real change towards making the society more equal, not a comparison of mixed economy countries vs capitalistic ones as this is turning into

Lack of health care is 100% related to inequality in the us. When an avg high deductible plan costs over $10k per year, it clearly makes a difference.

 

[Tommigun]

Lack of health care is 100% related to inequality in the us. When an avg high deductible plan costs over $10k per year, it clearly makes a difference.

High prices is equal to everyone. Isn't it the poverty problem within a certain demographic that should be solved to enable more blacks to afford it and avoid a divide in society on that front? Is health care too expensive over there? Almost certainly, but taxes are also a lot lower, and now we are getting back to socialism vs capitalism I also want to be at least a tiny bit realistic in what could actually be done, if people wanted REAL change.

 

[KCjetsfan]

I won't go any further off topic except to say that if people were to look at the net cost of health care here they would demand action ( when a portion of your cost is paid by your employer, you tend not to consider that as part of the cost of health care, so you tend to think it costs you less than it does). That's the part of the argument that hasn't broken through yet. If Medicare for all would cost the govt $3.2B per year, but would cost public ( I don't remember the exact figure) say $4B less per year, it's not difficult math.

Sorry mods if this is too far off topic.

 

[Duke749]

I won't go any further off topic except to say that if people were to look at the net cost of health care here they would demand action ( when a portion of your cost is paid by your employer, you tend not to consider that as part of the cost of health care, so you tend to think it costs you less than it does). That's the part of the argument that hasn't broken through yet. If Medicare for all would cost the govt $3.2B per year, but would cost public ( I don't remember the exact figure) say $4B less per year, it's not difficult math.

Sorry mods if this is too far off topic.

There’s really no end to America’s problems and it all stems from greed and corruption. Only so much can be done so I’m just trying to live my life and get a small piece of the pie. Thank you stock market!

 

[Gnova]

What do you suggest specifically? I know we can’t take guns away from law abiding citizens. That could lead to bigger problems.

I think starting with an overall cultural change in American society would be a good start. Maybe actually spending money on education would help. Like a lot. There’s actually a lot of things that we could change and things would fix themselves much better. Everyone keeps playing victim in America.

I know it is a culture thing in the US but look at how Canada handles gun control.
Everyone who passes the required checks and takes a safety course can own a gun.
The types of guns that people can own and use are ones that are suitable for hunting.
A normal citizen does not need a handgun or a large magazine semi automatic rifle and the 2nd amendment doesn't guarantee they can these weapons either any more than they can own a rocket launcher or have a automatic machine gun mounted to their vehicle roof.

There are so many guns in the US now though that restrictions are pretty much useless, just like we know that illegal gun use in Canada isn't going away because there are just too many guns in the US that are easy to smuggle in the country.

 

[Eyeseeing]

The criminal justice system is massively skewed against defendants. There are thousands and thousands of innocent people are in jail in the US...maybe hundreds of thousands - after all, there are over 2.1 million people in prison in the US. They have the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world. Poor? Black? Accused of a crime? You're f***ed. White? Rich? Well, let's not get too hasty... Anyway that's a different topic. I don't think the US suffers from the "revolving door justice" as much as a place like Canada, with a much lower incarceration rate and a tendency towards slap-on-the-wrist sentencing.

I agree that the vast majority of police are not cold blooded killers or racists...but you have to admit, the unchecked power inherent in the job certainly seems like it would attract a lot of those bad apples. I saw on Twitter the other day: if actual bad apples were as frequently deadly as police, you wouldn't be able to buy them in grocery stores. Anyway, the saying goes a few bad apples spoil the bunch - so when decent cops protect the bad apples, they're part of the rot as well.

Jail is full of innocent people

 

[Whileee]

Jail is full of innocent people

How many innocent people in jail would be too many for you?

Over 10% of persons sentenced to the death penalty in the US have subsequently been exonerated, often after decades on death row.

 

[Eyeseeing]

I know it is a culture thing in the US but look at how Canada handles gun control.
Everyone who passes the required checks and takes a safety course can own a gun.
The types of guns that people can own and use are ones that are suitable for hunting.
A normal citizen does not need a handgun or a large magazine semi automatic rifle and the 2nd amendment doesn't guarantee they can these weapons either any more than they can own a rocket launcher or have a automatic machine gun mounted to their vehicle roof.

There are so many guns in the US now though that restrictions are pretty much useless, just like we know that illegal gun use in Canada isn't going away because there are just too many guns in the US that are easy to smuggle in the country.

People don’t need exotic cars or stamps or jerseys either.
There are people who are law abiding citizens who like guns.
Who are YOU to say they can’t collect them?
The mass killings come from people who skirt existing law.
The law abiding citizens who register are being portrayed as the problem when in reality it’s the federal governments soft stance on justice in the first place that allows this to happen.
Then in the biggest parody of all....the same government takes away the rights of the law abiding gun owners under the cover of Covid without due process which is NOT going to stop mass killings.
It’s not registered owners killing people it’s the people who are STILL buying these weapons.

 

[Eyeseeing]

How many innocent people in jail would be too many for you?

Over 10% of persons sentenced to the death penalty in the US have subsequently been exonerated, often after decades on death row.

Life is tough Whileee
So we should let everyone be free?

 

[Whileee]

People don’t need exotic cars or stamps or jerseys either.
There are people who are law abiding citizens who like guns.
Who are YOU to say they can’t collect them?
The mass killings come from people who skirt existing law.
The law abiding citizens who register are being portrayed as the problem when in reality it’s the federal governments soft stance on justice in the first place that allows this to happen.
Then in the biggest parody of all....the same government takes away the rights of the law abiding gun owners under the cover of Covid without due process which is NOT going to stop mass killings.
It’s not registered owners killing people it’s the people who are STILL buying these weapons.

Great, collect the guns but no need to have ammunition for semiautomatic weapons.

Sure, it's illegal to use a semiautomatic weapons to murder large groups of people, but it's clear that the US isn't capable of controlling that. So, until they can, I think citizens deserve to not have to worry that someone will slaughter people so some people can enjoy their gun collection.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Great, collect the guns but no need to have ammunition for semiautomatic weapons.

Sure, it's illegal to use a semiautomatic weapons to murder large groups of people, but it's clear that the US isn't capable of controlling that. So, until they can, I think citizens deserve to not have to worry that someone will slaughter people so some people can enjoy their gun collection.

It’s not the collector’s killing people.
It’s the black market guns which have and will continue killing people.

 

[Whileee]

It’s not the collector’s killing people.
It’s the black market guns which have and will continue killing people.

Right, but they get their guns from the same places to begin with.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Right, but they get their guns from the same places to begin with.

Surely they do
If it makes you feel better

 

[KCjetsfan]

Life is tough Whileee
So we should let everyone be free?

Well that's a pretty cavalier attitude towards the prospect of innocent people spending years in jail &/or death row.

 

[Mud Turtle]

There's no way you can make a claim the victim would be alive if they were white. Id argue skin color wouldn't have made a difference in the Atlanta event.

Had the victim not massively resisted arrest, stole a taser from a cop, and pointed said taser at the officer the odds are quite high he would be alive...

There's no more racism amoung police than there is in the rest of society. These are societal issues and I highly doubt cops drive around looking for opportunities to kill people so they can face this scrutiny, lose their jobs, and possibly leave their families to spend the rest of their lives in prison. Every profession has bad apples, and police will be no different.

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own actions. Does anyone deserve to die because of an altercation with police? Obviously not, but physically fighting cops and stealing their taser hardly seems like a recipe for peace. The victim chose to go down this road and unfortunately it led to tragic consequences.

I wonder how many cops have been killed in the line of duty over the past few weeks. Unfortunately, these events barely make the news anymore.

I dont thing the public understands how quickly these scenarios go the other way and a cop ends out dead. There's no way the Atlanta cop would have known it was a taser pointed at him, it could just as easily been a gun.

In a split second decision of life or death, cops are going to pull the trigger

Thank you for this. Well said.

 

[Mud Turtle]

And criminals who repeatedly break the law because there are no real consequences.
Imagine being a policeman who deal with the repeat offenders again and again only to have the courts turn them loose over and over.
Maybe the justice system needs accountability as well.
The vast majority of police are not cold blooded killers.
I don’t believe the vast majority of police are racist either.
In a few short months we’re going to be on some other hot button issue that nobody has bothered to be outraged about and this one will go on the back burner.
It’s just the way it is.

Sadly, this is what our society has become. Outrage culture. Massive outrage that lasts a few weeks and then on to the next outrage. Virtue signalling, but no commitment to real change.
We should be so proud of ourselves.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Sadly, this is what our society has become. Outrage culture. Massive outrage that lasts a few weeks and then on to the next outrage. Virtue signalling, but no commitment to real change.
We should be so proud of ourselves.

The virtue signalling crowd look for the worst in humanity and align with causes that they talk about but not much more.
In the case of race there’s a perverse rush to judgement to portray white people or police as hating blacks without much thought behind it.
The latest incident was always going to be seen as racism because that’s what’s cool at the moment.
Those who oppose blanket racism comments are attacked , there’s no dialogue just outrage that goes in one ear and out the other.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Well that's a pretty cavalier attitude towards the prospect of innocent people spending years in jail &/or death row.

Yeah I agree it is.
And the flip side are those who lawyer up and go free.

 

[ps241]

I was driving to the lake Yesterday and decided to listen to the recent Joe Rogan Podcast with Jocko Willink and I thought there were some powerful elements to the interview. The first 40 minutes talked allot about defunding Police and I thought Jocko had a more functional approach to the challenge based on his history in active combat and training SEAL teams.

For you folks that like debating the current culture and politics they dig into that mess as well.

 

[KCjetsfan]

The virtue signalling crowd look for the worst in humanity and align with causes that they talk about but not much more.
In the case of race there’s a perverse rush to judgement to portray white people or police as hating blacks without much thought behind it.
The latest incident was always going to be seen as racism because that’s what’s cool at the moment.
Those who oppose blanket racism comments are attacked , there’s no dialogue just outrage that goes in one ear and out the other.

Who's the 'virtue signaling crowd'? Is it the people who step all over themselves to say 'thank you for your service' to troops? Or the ones screaming 'blue lives matter' or 'all lives matter'? Or people who proclaim themselves tough on crime?

'Virtue signaling' is probably the stupidest term that's come up in the past few years. It's only virtue signaling if you disagree with the opinion.

 

[SoCalJetsFan]

I agree with you but it sure seems like in countries where it's harder to get a gun there is less shootings and killings . But it's in your 2nd amendment that you have the right to bare arms so until that is changed i guess guns won't.

Whenever I get into 2nd amendment conversation down here I tell people that Canada’s 2nd amendment is “the right to arm bears”. I find it lightens the mood and we can move on from a discussion that will never go anywhere.

But yes, that needs to be changed but I doubt it ever will be. The money in politics will need to change first.

 

[Duke749]

Who's the 'virtue signaling crowd'? Is it the people who step all over themselves to say 'thank you for your service' to troops? Or the ones screaming 'blue lives matter' or 'all lives matter'? Or people who proclaim themselves tough on crime?

'Virtue signaling' is probably the stupidest term that's come up in the past few years. It's only virtue signaling if you disagree with the opinion.

That’s a good point. I would also say that includes celebrities and corporations that suddenly support BLM.

 

[Gnova]

People don’t need exotic cars or stamps or jerseys either.
There are people who are law abiding citizens who like guns.
Who are YOU to say they can’t collect them?
The mass killings come from people who skirt existing law.
The law abiding citizens who register are being portrayed as the problem when in reality it’s the federal governments soft stance on justice in the first place that allows this to happen.
Then in the biggest parody of all....the same government takes away the rights of the law abiding gun owners under the cover of Covid without due process which is NOT going to stop mass killings.
It’s not registered owners killing people it’s the people who are STILL buying these weapons.

"People don’t need exotic cars or stamps or jerseys" aren't tools used to kill people.

Most mass shootings in the US are done by people who own registered guns. I'm not sure where you are hearing otherwise.

 

[Gnova]

It’s not the collector’s killing people.
It’s the black market guns which have and will continue killing people.

That is flat out wrong.
Mass shootings are usually carried out using registered weapons and legally purchased ammunition.

 

[KCjetsfan]

That’s a good point. I would also say that includes celebrities and corporations that suddenly support BLM.

I don't know that I'd lump celebrities in there, but there is a measure of cyniscism when it comes to corporate expressions whether it be towards BLM or what home Depot or Lowe's does for veterans etc